Player Discussion Patrik Laine: ruining the tank

[The Great Weal]

And what is this 'a lot more' you speak of exactly?

Svechnikov is a harder worker, a better skater, significantly more physical, and I'd say more dependable defensively. I'd like to know how Laine is better than Svechnikov "AINEC" because nothing suggests that.

 

[Marioesque]

Svechnikov is a harder worker, a better skater, significantly more physical, and I'd say more dependable defensively. I'd like to know how Laine is better than Svechnikov "AINEC" because nothing suggests that.

I think Laine is better at everything other than hitting and lacrosse goals. Most likely backhand too.

 

[The Great Weal]

I think Laine is better at everything other than hitting and lacrosse goals. Most likely backhand too.

I mean Svechnikov is undoubtedly the better skater and so is his compete level. I’d say besides scoring goals Svech is better at everything.

 

[Jaynki]

Laine's high has been equivalent to Svechnikov's high in terms of production. But then you need to include how Svech brings a lot more outside of production that Laine doesn't.

Laine high has been way higher then Svechnikov.

He once had a sequence where he scored 18 goals in 12 games.

Laine is a tier above Svechnikov in terms of pure talent.

Svechnikov do indeed brings things that Laine don't and he does not have the deep lows but i disagree the high are equivalent.

And its not meant to be a knock on Svechnikov, Laine is just really extremely talented.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Has MSL talked about Laine yet? I think MSL turns his career around and we see Laine with the habs for the next 5-7 years. Here we go red! here we go!!

He probably won't talk about him until the golf tournament.

I don't think St. Louis does many, if any interviews out of season. Not that that's an issue.

Just another thing to look forward to.

 

[Marioesque]

I mean Svechnikov is undoubtedly the better skater and so is his compete level. I’d say besides scoring goals Svech is better at everything.

"Compete level" is such a subjective attribute it doesn't mean anything. It's what one imagines

 

[The Great Weal]

Laine high has been way higher then Svechnikov.

Laine has 388 points in 480 games which translates to 66 points/season which translates to 64 points/season. You can't just cherry pick a stretch, you have to look at entire seasons.

He once had a sequence where he scored 18 goals in 12 games.

Good for him, he also had a sequence where he couldn't score a goal for months. Why didn't you include that?

Laine is a tier above Svechnikov in terms of pure talent.

Their objective stats say otherwise. Factor in how Svech has way more compete, is vastly more physical, and a better skater and it's really not even close.

Svechnikov do indeed brings things that Laine don't and he does not have the deep lows but i disagree the high are equivalent.

And its not meant to be a knock on Svechnikov, Laine is just really extremely talented.

So there must be something seriously wrong with Laine if he can barely outproduce Svechnikov despite being significantly more talented at the cost of being inferior in many other parts of the game.

"Compete level" is such a subjective attribute it doesn't mean anything. It's what one imagines

It really isn't though. Would you say that Gallagher and Drouin have different compete levels since it's subjective?

 

[Jaynki]

Laine has 388 points in 480 games which translates to 66 points/season which translates to 64 points/season. You can't just cherry pick a stretch, you have to look at entire seasons.

Weren't we debating the highs and lows?

Good for him, he also had a sequence where he couldn't score a goal for months. Why didn't you include that?

Weren't we debating the highs and lows?

Their objective stats say otherwise. Factor in how Svech has way more compete, is vastly more physical, and a better skater and it's really not even close.

I agree that Svechnikov has a lot more compete and physicality.

Laine is as good of a skater tho. He has that separation speed.

So there must be something seriously wrong with Laine if he can barely outproduce Svechnikov despite being significantly more talented at the cost of being inferior in many other parts of the game.

Yes, there has been a lot of wrongs with Laine and it is why he came here for free. He had deep low in his career that Svechnikov did not have.

Overall, in their complete profile, there is no debate to have. Svechnikov is way more reliable and brings a lot more to the table. That is not what i am arguing.

What i say is that, if you take the peak of both players, Laine is higher.

Just looking at the upside tho does a major prejudice to Svechnikov in the debate since it ignores a lot on Laine but not on Svechnikov.

So again, in terms of pure talent, Laine is on another tier versus Svechnikov.

 

[BB88]

Svechnikov is a harder worker, a better skater, significantly more physical, and I'd say more dependable defensively. I'd like to know how Laine is better than Svechnikov "AINEC" because nothing suggests that.

Going off topic but I was really high on Svec early on but it seems like his development has gone backwards. Not even close to being a game breaking player once hoped

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

Laine high has been way higher then Svechnikov.

He once had a sequence where he scored 18 goals in 12 games.

Laine is a tier above Svechnikov in terms of pure talent.

Svechnikov do indeed brings things that Laine don't and he does not have the deep lows but i disagree the high are equivalent.

And its not meant to be a knock on Svechnikov, Laine is just really extremely talented.

But at the end you balance and counter balance what you like of Svechnikov and Laine despite the high ceiling of Laine, a wise GM would pick Svechnikov over Laine. You could agree or disagree but it could go that way.

 

[Marioesque]

But at the end you balance and counter balance what you like of Svechnikov and Laine despite the high ceiling of Laine, a wise GM would pick Svechnikov over Laine. You could agree or disagree but it could go that way.

That's your interpretation of what a wise GM would do. Based on your understanding of the players. It could be a bit off.

 

[The Great Weal]

Weren't we debating the highs and lows?


Weren't we debating the highs and lows?

To me a high should last a season. Laine's career high is 70 points and Svechnikov's career high is 69 points. I don't understand why a sample sized high means anything if it can't translate to any sizeable production difference in the end. Jonathan Drouin is also a purely talented player, it didn't mean anything when compared to others who were "less talented". I was mostly referring to the initial post of Laine>Svechnikov to which you said "ainec".

I agree that Svechnikov has a lot more compete and physicality.

Laine is as good of a skater tho. He has that separation speed.

I mean Svechnikov is definitely a better skater. He's one of the best in the league for forwards. Not the Laine sucks at it, but Svech is undoubtedly better,

Yes, there has been a lot of wrongs with Laine and it is why he came here for free.

I'd actually say we got paid for taking on Laine.

 

[Marioesque]

Laine has the most important thing over Svech. He has the best shot of all time. There's no attribute for Svechnikov thats best of all time. On most things they're really close, not on shot though

 

[BB88]

But at the end you balance and counter balance what you like of Svechnikov and Laine despite the high ceiling of Laine, a wise GM would pick Svechnikov over Laine. You could agree or disagree but it could go that way.

Do you think you’d say the same if Svec was on that Columbus roster with Jenner and Laine in Carolina with Aho?

One has been playing for dumster fire with no 1C’s and the other for a contender with Aho

 

[Marioesque]

Do you think you’d say the same if Svec was on that Columbus roster with Jenner and Laine in Carolina with Aho?

One has been playing for dumster fire with no 1C’s and the other for a contender with Aho

And if you look at them both with Aho...Laine was better with Aho than Svechnikov. At 16.

 

[BB88]

And if you look at them both with Aho...Laine was better with Aho than Svechnikov. At 16.

A lot has happened since that time

Svec lacks too much of that ability to take the game over offensively. That’s been a back breaker for Carolina in the playoffs for years. Being an elite team without elite offensive weapons, keep losing the 1 goal games

 

[1909]

Laine is just a bigger Caufield. When he is not scoring goals, he is next to be useless. Habs need goals on more than one line. So, it is OK to have a Laine aboard. Hopefully his mood is better and he will resist to any slump or MTL medias and fans pressure.

 

[Blue Shakehead]

Jets fan here. I really hope for the return of a mentally and physically healthy Patrik Laine. He's an all-world talent who hasn't played more than 10 games in his career with a #1C. His development in Winnipeg was completely destroyed by Paul Maurice who tried to turn him into a power forward and seemed to f*** with his head out of pure spite - refusing to play him on the 1st unit PP, then refusing to put him in the Stamkos/Ovechkin spot until our PP numbers stunk and he was forced to. Maurice had Laine playing a large stretch on the PP in the right defense spot. Completely bizzare. Maurice also let Blake Wheeler decide who he was playing with and so no surprise, Wheeler was paired with Scheifele. I'm trying to imagine how Ovechkin's career would have turned out if he never got to play with Backstrom. Obviously, Ovie was more explosive and dynamic than Patty - but Laine is a far better playmaker. Trying to turn Laine into Adam Lowry in WPG turned out to be very dumb. Who knew!

Best of luck to Patty in MTL.

 

[Guess]

Jets fan here. I really hope for the return of a mentally and physically healthy Patrik Laine. He's an all-world talent who hasn't played more than 10 games in his career with a #1C. His development in Winnipeg was completely destroyed by Paul Maurice who tried to turn him into a power forward and seemed to f*** with his head out of pure spite - refusing to play him on the 1st unit PP, then refusing to put him in the Stamkos/Ovechkin spot until our PP numbers stunk and he was forced to. Maurice had Laine playing a large stretch on the PP in the right defense spot. Completely bizzare. Maurice also let Blake Wheeler decide who he was playing with and so no surprise, Wheeler was paired with Scheifele. I'm trying to imagine how Ovechkin's career would have turned out if he never got to play with Backstrom. Obviously, Ovie was more explosive and dynamic than Patty - but Laine is a far better playmaker. Trying to turn Laine into Adam Lowry in WPG turned out to be very dumb. Who knew!

Best of luck to Patty in MTL.

Can you confirm this? I thought he played a whole season with Scheifele!? 10 games in his whole career with him is nuts.

 

[Bobby Holik agent]

Think the main strat is to cause vertigo between the size diversion of Laine & Caufield.

 

[sampollock]

Jets fan here. I really hope for the return of a mentally and physically healthy Patrik Laine. He's an all-world talent who hasn't played more than 10 games in his career with a #1C. His development in Winnipeg was completely destroyed by Paul Maurice who tried to turn him into a power forward and seemed to f*** with his head out of pure spite - refusing to play him on the 1st unit PP, then refusing to put him in the Stamkos/Ovechkin spot until our PP numbers stunk and he was forced to. Maurice had Laine playing a large stretch on the PP in the right defense spot. Completely bizzare. Maurice also let Blake Wheeler decide who he was playing with and so no surprise, Wheeler was paired with Scheifele. I'm trying to imagine how Ovechkin's career would have turned out if he never got to play with Backstrom. Obviously, Ovie was more explosive and dynamic than Patty - but Laine is a far better playmaker. Trying to turn Laine into Adam Lowry in WPG turned out to be very dumb. Who knew!

Best of luck to Patty in MTL.

Watched him in the peg...
Very high end talent

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

"Compete level" is such a subjective attribute it doesn't mean anything. It's what one imagines

That is a ridiculous comment.

If by "subjective", you are referring to dishonest actors on either side of an argument using "compete level" to support their argument irrespective of actual evidence then yes it is meaningless in those scenarios which are common among tribally charged sports fans.

Are you going to claim that an assertion that Gallagher has a higher compete level than Drouin is a meaningless statement and is simply just a part of one's imagination. Of course not, that would be ludicrous as even though "compete level" is subjective, it is defined by objective analysis that may not result in an empirical fact that is defined by a quantitative measure but is still easily recognizable as a universal truth.

Attempts to render arguments meaningless with semantics and targeting specific subjective terms for removal from the lexicon in order to forward a competing subjective narrative is an old charlatan tactic that should always be called out.

 

[Guess]

Can you confirm this? I thought he played a whole season with Scheifele!? 10 games in his whole career with him is nuts.

Looks like he didn't play with Scheifele in many games (5 on 5) until his last season.

2016-17: around 509.8 minutes together (Est. 27 games)

2017-18: 40.8 minutes together (got 44 goals here!) (Est 2 games)

2018-19: 235.3 minutes with Scheifele (est 12 games)

2019-20: almost 730.4 minutes with Scheifele (only 28 goals) (Est 38 games)

That last season is where Wheeler played way less with Scheifele, I imagine that this is when he was making things hard on Laine hence the trade?

(data from Moneypuck, excludes lines that have under 10 minutes together)

 

[Shred]

Looks like he didn't play with Scheifele many games until his last season.

2016-17: around 370 minutes together (Est. 19 games)

2017-18: 0 minutes together (got 44 goals here!)

2018-19: 195 minutes with Scheifele (est 10 games)

2019-20: almost 700 minutes with Scheifele (only 28 goals) (Est 35 games)

That last season is where Wheeler played way less with Scheifele, I imagine that this is when he was making things hard on Laine hence the trade?

(data from Moneypuck so possibly not that accurate as I dont they dont line combos that played less than a certain amount of minutes, so he likely played even more with Scheifele)

Is that only ES or is PP also in there? Could be they played together mostly on the PP.

 

[Marioesque]

Jets fan here. I really hope for the return of a mentally and physically healthy Patrik Laine. He's an all-world talent who hasn't played more than 10 games in his career with a #1C. His development in Winnipeg was completely destroyed by Paul Maurice who tried to turn him into a power forward and seemed to f*** with his head out of pure spite - refusing to play him on the 1st unit PP, then refusing to put him in the Stamkos/Ovechkin spot until our PP numbers stunk and he was forced to. Maurice had Laine playing a large stretch on the PP in the right defense spot. Completely bizzare. Maurice also let Blake Wheeler decide who he was playing with and so no surprise, Wheeler was paired with Scheifele. I'm trying to imagine how Ovechkin's career would have turned out if he never got to play with Backstrom. Obviously, Ovie was more explosive and dynamic than Patty - but Laine is a far better playmaker. Trying to turn Laine into Adam Lowry in WPG turned out to be very dumb. Who knew!

Best of luck to Patty in MTL.

Hear hear brother!