Player Discussion Patrik Laine: Part 2 - Healthy Living Edition

[HHel]

Yeah and he could still skate and keep up his conditioning, something that Dach could not do. What the f*** are you talking about?

He had a concussion and a broken collarbone. What the hell are you talking about?

 

[OneSharpMarble]

He had a concussion and a broken collarbone. What the hell are you talking about?

Which one of those injuries prevents him from from staying in game shape? Is that the excuse for not being able to backcheck or be involved in the play at all? Let me guess it's a lifetime excuse to never try again. When did he get the concussion? Barron sure didn't get several years of excuses after his concussion. What the hell are you babbling about?

 

[BehindTheTimes]

Notice how some commentary excuses away Alex Newhook's pathetic performance this year (16pts in 53gp) but hyper-fixates on Laine (18pts in 25gp)?

In his LAST 25gp, the re-awakened, re-born, proved-'em-wrong Kirby Dach has 12pts in 25gp. Slafkovsky has 14pts in 25gp. Newhook has 10pts in 25gp. Gallagher, Anderson, and Dvorak each have 8pts in 25gp. Only Suzuki, Caufield, and Hutson have more than Laine in their last 25gp with 23, 23, and 18pts in 25gp respectively.

But the biggest problem with the team is Patrik Laine, right?

I know right. Same agendas driving the same commentary.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I mean, we all remember how bad Dach looked when he came back right? I have to think this guy needs more time. Glad they have him in the bottom six.

Dach still looks terrible though.

 

[VT]

Yeah and he could still skate and keep up his conditioning, something that Dach could not do. What the f*** are you talking about?

He wasn't in the NHLPA program because of the callous on his heel, but because of mental issues that blocked his training. And even though he trained later and got in great physical shape, he didn't actually skate. Iné subsequently injured his knee in preseason games, which not only meant the end of skating in Montreal, but also of his conditioning, lower body and partially his upper body as he couldn't stand. By the way, even 2-3 weeks is a lot.

And then there are the things related to the nervous system and psychology that Raimo Summanen talked about it. This also applied to Dach and Slafkovský though not to the same extent, as they didn't have quite the major depression that made Laine consider ending his career. Plus thee were injured in the last season not in this.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Dach still looks terrible though.

You sir, are behind the times.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Which one of those injuries prevents him from from staying in game shape? Is that the excuse for not being able to backcheck or be involved in the play at all? Let me guess it's a lifetime excuse to never try again. When did he get the concussion? Barron sure didn't get several years of excuses after his concussion. What the hell are you babbling about?

I think we’ve seen over and over how an injury can mess with a player. Dach looked horrible to start the year. Way worse than I think any of us expected.

Laine is going through something similar now. It’s not laziness, it’s a player getting reacclimatized to the game.

Again though, this is why some of us cautioned trading for him. I’m glad Hughes was smart enough to hold out and get paid for taking him. There was a risk in bringing him on and we’re seeing that now.

Great trade. But only because we didn’t have to pay anything and got paid to take him. And I sincerely hope Harris puts his career together over there. It wasn’t going to happen here and he was spare parts for us. We’ll see how he does next year. Hopefully he comes back strong. If not, no biggie.

 

[Rapala]

I know right. Same agendas driving the same commentary.

Those are some butt ugly stats across the board.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Those are some butt ugly stats across the board.

It's also a completely dishonest post.

Laine's production has come almost entirely from the PP. A place nobody has had an issue with until recently as teams have adjusted. He was absolutely brilliant there though and nobody would say otherwise. At 5 on 5 though, he's been just as ineffective as Dach was to start the year. He's losing pucks, lost in his own zone.... and that's okay because he's getting back into the swing of things.

Moreover, I don't think anyone's 'excused' Newhook for anything. This was his audition to be a 2nd liner. He ended last year strong and the hope was he could take the role. That didn't happen. Some of that can be blamed on Dach. The whole line was thrown off because of him and since he's come back Newhook's been more productive. But that doesn't excuse the inconsistent play and lack of finish. I think Newhook has a place in the bottom six but isn't consistent enough for the top.

As for Kirby Dach, he's pacing for around 50 points since he started scoring in late December. Pacing for 30+ goals too. I don't think there's any way he does that over the course of the regular season as he's more of a playmaker but I think his points will go up. And those numbers are almost entirely at even strength too. The second line has been a mess all year long and it's still a mess now. It would've been great to bring in Roy but he of course got hurt right when we were going to call him up. That will be different next year as we'll have Demidov come into the top six and Laine should be healthy as well.

And who the hell has said this team's biggest problem is Patrick Laine?

It's just more schtick.

 

[DAChampion]

And who the hell has said this team's biggest problem is Patrick Laine?

On this board, in recent weeks, Laine's been the most complained about player.

 

[WeThreeKings]

On this board, in recent weeks, Laine's been the most complained about player.

That's because in recent weeks, he's been the worst player on the team.

Of course there are the same people who will fly off and take the most recent downturn in his play as proof that he's just not good. But you can see through most of the thought out, rational replies, that the people calling Laine's recent performance out, are all for giving him time to sort it out.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

On this board, in recent weeks, Laine's been the most complained about player.

Understandably so. He looks terrible out there. As I said earlier, he looks a lot like Dach did. Timing's off, loses the puck very easily, makes bad decisions.

He's missed a lot of hockey. It takes time to get things back to normal.

 

[HHel]

Which one of those injuries prevents him from from staying in game shape? Is that the excuse for not being able to backcheck or be involved in the play at all? Let me guess it's a lifetime excuse to never try again. When did he get the concussion? Barron sure didn't get several years of excuses after his concussion. What the hell are you babbling about?

Are you kidding? Or is this pure troll? Now I'm starting to understand were your username is coming from.

Do you know what is concussion? Some people can't even sitwithout feeling sick. How you can keep your game shape on, if you are feeling like that?

Last season 4th game Rasmus Andersson hit him in to the head. Then he came back (too soon) and 14th game Lagersson took him down and he broke his collarbone. Sure you can fully train with broken bone.

End of january he went to PAP.

In june he started summer workout and in september Pare kneed him. He was out until december. Again, no skating in that periot.

He still uses knee brace, which affects skating speed and acceleration, which shows that he is almost always behind the play. No, that's not lazyness.

I'm not making any excuses. Any reasonable person can see that there are physical limitations in his game at the moment, for which there is a reasonable explanation.

 

[ReHabs]

I'm not making any excuses. Any reasonable person can see that there are physical limitations in their game at the moment, for which there is a reasonable explanation.

It struggled to put it as simple as you did, so thanks for sharing your comments.

I don’t see how it’s “dishonest” to present the context and push back against what would otherwise be a barracuda style complaining campaign against Laine.

It ultimately actually matters because it bleeds over to Twitter and then to other social media and it affects the players.

Criticism is fine and well-earned but when Laine is clearly hobbled and also outproducing all Kent’s darling baby angels Dach, Newhook, and Slafkovsky it is worth mentioning that priorities need to be adjusted.

If we had blown a 1OA or even 13OA on Laine I’d be quite upset right now!

 

[HHel]

It struggled to put it as simple as you did, so thanks for sharing your comments.

I don’t see how it’s “dishonest” to present the context and push back against what would otherwise be a barracuda style complaining campaign against Laine.

It ultimately actually matters because it bleeds over to Twitter and then to other social media and it affects the players.

Criticism is fine and well-earned but when Laine is clearly hobbled and also outproducing all Kent’s darling baby angels Dach, Newhook, and Slafkovsky it is worth mentioning that priorities need to be adjusted.

If we had blown a 1OA or even 13OA on Laine I’d be quite upset right now!

I totally understand you.

One thing that has also been bugging me is that people are pointing out that Laine's points have mostly come from power play. That's true, but Slaf, Dach and Newhook all get power play time and the latter two have gotten a lot more of it in recent games. Shouldn't they have been making more points? Or is that not being included in the comparison here?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It struggled to put it as simple as you did, so thanks for sharing your comments.

I don’t see how it’s “dishonest” to present the context and push back against what would otherwise be a barracuda style complaining campaign against Laine.

It's dishonest to make strawman arguments as you did. I pointed them out for all to see. Nobody is saying Laine is our biggest problem. Nobody is making excuses for Newhook.

You have to look at the context of the season and draw conclusions from there. It's totally fair to say that Laine has sucked. It's also fair to say that he's got a legitimate reason for sucking. Same with Newhook. But the difference is that while Newhook can point to his linemates for the rough start, he's been inconsistent. He hasn't finished properly and I think most would agree he failed in his audition as a future top six.

The question is whether or not Laine should be in the top six right now. Showing Laine's PP points is not honest in that regard. Yes he's produced, but almost all of it (10 of 12 goals) is with the man advantage. So yeah, keep him there. Top six though? I don't think so.

It shouldn't be a wedge issue either. It's not Newhook or Dach or whoever vs Laine. Each player has their own story.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I totally understand you.

One thing that has also been bugging me is that people are pointing out that Laine's points have mostly come from power play. That's true, but Slaf, Dach and Newhook all get power play time and the latter two have gotten a lot more of it in recent games. Shouldn't they have been making more points? Or is that not being included in the comparison here?

Laine's production is almost exclusively from the PP. That's not the case with those other players. Again though, it shouldn't be this guy vs that guy etc...

The fact is that Laine has been great on the PP and brutal at 5 on 5. He looks lost. That's why he was moved down the lineup. But they aren't going to remove him from the PP, nor should they.

Laine just needs time to get his game back.

 

[HHel]

Laine's production is almost exclusively from the PP. That's not the case with those other players. Again though, it shouldn't be this guy vs that guy etc...

The fact is that Laine has been great on the PP and brutal at 5 on 5. He looks lost. That's why he was moved down the lineup. But they aren't going to remove him from the PP, nor should they.

Laine just needs time to get his game back.

That's true.

And I'm definitely not defending him. He hasn't played his best, but as mentioned before he has his reasons.

Maybe one thing that causes discussion is that Dach and Newhook were allowed to take their time on the 2nd line to get the game going, while Laine was immediately buried on the 4th line.

That's one of the biggest problems with MSL, that he hasn't tried to make the whole team work. That necessarily requires breaking up the 1st line. And that doesn't mean that Laine should be promoted there.

 

[WeThreeKings]

That's true.

And I'm definitely not defending him. He hasn't played his best, but as mentioned before he has his reasons.

Maybe one thing that causes discussion is that Dach and Newhook were allowed to take their time on the 2nd line to get the game going, while Laine was immediately buried on the 4th line.

That's one of the biggest problems with MSL, that he hasn't tried to make the whole team work. That necessarily requires breaking up the 1st line. And that doesn't mean that Laine should be promoted there.

MSL has his issues but Dach was one of the few players, with Slafkovsky, to ever get benched in games. So he did not escape punishment at all.

I do agree that MSL has trouble holding everyone to the same standards.

Though someone was going to have to get off that 2nd line, personally I would have put Dach, Newhook and Laine all on separate lines.

Laine wasn't gonna get promoted to line 1, as that line is untouched, they kept Dach and Newhook on line 2 because their recent play warranted it, while Laine got demoted.

 

[ReHabs]

I totally understand you.

One thing that has also been bugging me is that people are pointing out that Laine's points have mostly come from power play. That's true, but Slaf, Dach and Newhook all get power play time and the latter two have gotten a lot more of it in recent games. Shouldn't they have been making more points? Or is that not being included in the comparison here?

To stick with the same schtick as my earlier post.

In their respective last 25 games played:

Dach played 46:52 PP mins with 3 PP pts and 13pts total in 25gp and 15 PP mins per single PP point
Newhook played 37:02 PP mins 3 PP pts and 12pts totalin 25gp and that's 12 PP mins per single PP point
Slafkovsky played 67:42 PP mins 1 PP pt and 13pts total in 25gp and that's 67:42 PP mins per single PP point
Laine played 67:26 PP mins with 9 PP pts and 16pts total in 25gp and that's 7.5 pp mins per single PP point

I've bolded the leading stat in each category.

But this is going to be called dishonest, as Laine played his last 25gp in a different sequence than the other three. You see, Laine's 25 game sequence starts at Dec. 9 and the other three from Dec. 20.

So let's go back 25gp overall and see what happens:

Dach played 46:52 PP mins with 3 PP pts and 13pts total in 25gp and 15 PP mins per single PP point
Newhook played 37:02 PP mins 3 PP pts and 12pts total in 25gp and that's 12 PP mins per single PP point
Slafkovsky played 67:42 PP mins 1 PP pt and 13pts total in 25gp and that's 67:42 PP mins per single PP point
Laine played 52:43 PP mins with 5 PP pts and 11pts total in 21gp and that's 10.5 pp mins per single PP point (funny: his ppg rate over this sequence says he would have 13 in 25).

I've bolded the leading stat in each category.

Now guess which of the above has the best pts/TOI?

Dach played 382 mins in 25gp and picked up 13 pts for 2.04pts/60min
Newhook played 385 mins in 25gp and picked up 12 pts for 1.87pts/60min
Slafkovsky played 428 mins in 25gp and picked up 13 pts for 1.82pts/60min
Laine played 304 mins in 21gp and picked up 11 pts for 2.17pts/60min

I've bolded the leading stat in each category. Notice anything?

All these comments because Laine got 2 whole PP points than Dach and Newhook... but scoring rate is significantly better than any of the other three, so why wouldn't he score more on the PP?

Apparently 5pp points and 6 even strength points is "exclusively PP points"

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

That's true.

And I'm definitely not defending him. He hasn't played his best, but as mentioned before he has his reasons.

Maybe one thing that causes discussion is that Dach and Newhook were allowed to take their time on the 2nd line to get the game going, while Laine was immediately buried on the 4th line.

Think back to the early part of the season though and you'll see that the Evans line starting getting more ice than Dach did. So while Dach and Newhook were still together, they weren't really counted on as the second line.

Moreover, Dach was left there because we didn't really have anyone to replace him with. There's Dvorak and Evans...

Dach is playing a lot better and so is Newhook. Laine wasn't pulling his weight. So they removed him for Anderson. Laine's a better player than Anderson is but at the moment this move makes sense. Anderson at least is going to help drive the play a little more while Laine finds his game. And he's still going to get prime PP minutes where I'm sure he can continue to be productive. He has one of the best shots in the league - a relief because I was really worried about that shoulder.

That's one of the biggest problems with MSL, that he hasn't tried to make the whole team work. That necessarily requires breaking up the 1st line. And that doesn't mean that Laine should be promoted there.

He tried breaking up the lines... it didn't work.

Want to know our biggest problem? Injuries. Dach's in particular sent this team into chaos. We knew he'd be rusty but he was so bad that it completely screwed up the offense for the first few months of the season. That meant a horrible camp and a horrible start. It also had a spilloever effect. It's a big part of the reason why Joshua Roy didn't make the team. It's a big reason why Newhook struggled. Was that ALL Dach's fault? No. But it messed everything up. We also had no depth scoring to boot. Laine got hurt in camp. So did RB (who would probably have started in the AHL and joined us midway through).

Depth was always a problem coming into this season. Most of us knew this. It takes time to build it back in and next year we'll see some more players coming on board. We simply don't have the depth to survive the injuries now. On our win streak we were totally healthy. We had three lines who could score and all of a sudden we were winning games. Heineman goes down and the team sputters then we lose Guhle...

Next year we'll have Demidov. At some point we'll have RB. Those kinds of injuries will be easier to absorb but we're not there yet. It's going to take time.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

To stick with the same schtick as my earlier post.

In their respective last 25 games played:

Dach played 46:52 PP mins with 3 PP pts and 13pts total in 25gp and 15 PP mins per single PP point
Newhook played 37:02 PP mins 3 PP pts and 12pts totalin 25gp and that's 12 PP mins per single PP point
Slafkovsky played 67:42 PP mins 1 PP pt and 13pts total in 25gp and that's 67:42 PP mins per single PP point
Laine played 67:26 PP mins with 9 PP pts and 16pts total in 25gp and that's 7.5 pp mins per single PP point

I've bolded the leading stat in each category.

But this is going to be called dishonest, as Laine played his last 25gp in a different sequence than the other three. You see, Laine's 25 game sequence starts at Dec. 9 and the other three from Dec. 20.

So let's go back 25gp overall and see what happens:

Dach played 46:52 PP mins with 3 PP pts and 13pts total in 25gp and 15 PP mins per single PP point
Newhook played 37:02 PP mins 3 PP pts and 12pts total in 25gp and that's 12 PP mins per single PP point
Slafkovsky played 67:42 PP mins 1 PP pt and 13pts total in 25gp and that's 67:42 PP mins per single PP point
Laine played 52:43 PP mins with 5 PP pts and 11pts total in 21gp and that's 10.5 pp mins per single PP point (funny: his ppg rate over this sequence says he would have 13 in 25).

I've bolded the leading stat in each category.

Now guess which of the above has the best pts/TOI?

Dach played 382 mins in 25gp and picked up 13 pts for 2.04pts/60min
Newhook played 385 mins in 25gp and picked up 12 pts for 1.87pts/60min
Slafkovsky played 428 mins in 25gp and picked up 13 pts for 1.82pts/60min
Laine played 304 mins in 21gp and picked up 11 pts for 2.17pts/60min

I've bolded the leading stat in each category. Notice anything?

All these comments because Laine got 2 whole PP points than Dach and Newhook... but scoring rate is significantly better than any of the other three, so why wouldn't he score more on the PP?

Apparently 5pp points and 6 even strength points is "exclusively PP points"

This is so dumb.

Nobody disagrees Laine has been great on the PP. He was incredibly efficient on the PP when he first started here. We'd put him on and within like 15 seconds he'd score. Points per minute including PP is meaningless. Everyone acknowledges he was a rockstar there. Stop including PP. Everyone agrees he belongs there.

At 5 on 5 he has 2 goals in 28 games. And he's played like shit.

So, keep him on the PP1. Nobody disagrees. But at 5 on 5 he hasn't been effective and it makes sense to move him down.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

A quick glance by the way at Laine's possession numbers (and keep in mind he's a shoot first player) he's 43% CF and -8! CFRel. 29th worst player in the league and 13th worst respectively. (I should note there's a numbers descrepancy between hockey ref and Natural stat trick but it's close and the rankings are from NST.)

Those are horrible numbers.

For reference (and since Rehabs seems to want make this a wedge issue) Newhook is 47.4 and -1.8. Not great by any stretch but not terrible.

Even Dach's numbers (who are expectedly bad given his start) aren't as bad as Laine's are.

 

[VT]

MSL has his issues but Dach was one of the few players, with Slafkovsky, to ever get benched in games. So he did not escape punishment at all.

I do agree that MSL has trouble holding everyone to the same standards.

Though someone was going to have to get off that 2nd line, personally I would have put Dach, Newhook and Laine all on separate lines.

Laine wasn't gonna get promoted to line 1, as that line is untouched, they kept Dach and Newhook on line 2 because their recent play warranted it, while Laine got demoted.

MSL has its reasons. You played horrible in the beginning, it looked like you had no chance to play in PO. That's why MSL didn't change Dach and Newhook's time except in exceptional cases. In Laine's case the situation has changed, you have a chance to play in the PO. And MSL is the type of coach that doesn't want to put up with losing. And since Laine has to return his shape, logically he will play less since he is playing poorly.

The problem is different, it's one thing to admit that Laine is playing poorly but point out the reason for that play (as I did), it's another thing when someone writes that he's a lazy, bad player.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

MSL has its reasons. You played horrible in the beginning, it looked like you had no chance to play in PO. That's why MSL didn't change Dach and Newhook's time except in exceptional cases. In Laine's case the situation has changed, you have a chance to play in the PO. And MSL is the type of coach that doesn't want to put up with losing. And since Laine has to return his shape, logically he will play less since he is playing poorly.

The problem is different, it's one thing to admit that Laine is playing poorly but point out the reason for that play (as I did), it's another thing when someone writes that he's a lazy, bad player.

Excellent point. And we saw this with Dach earlier. People need to understand that it takes players time to come back sometimes.