Player Discussion Patrik Laine: Part 2 - Healthy Living Edition

[Balthazar]

I mean, we all remember how bad Dach looked when he came back right?

He looked bad when he came back? As opposed to now?

 

[HHel]

Both Newhook and Dach 3 points in 2 games without Laine.

Laine 0 pts in 2 games.

2 games 5 vs 5
Newhook and Dach 2 GF and 3 GA

Laine 0 GF and 0 GA

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

He looked bad when he came back? As opposed to now?

Yes.

He’s playing well. The 2nd line has been better than our first on this road trip.

 

[LaineBOOM]

2 games 5 vs 5
Newhook and Dach 2 GF and 3 GA

Laine 0 GF and 0 GA

So it seems Laine is excelling defensively away from Newhook and Dach. A very promising sign! If Laine can be 0 GF and 0 GA on 5 v 5 for a full season, and lets say can score 30 apples on the PP he will definitely be worth every penny.

 

[schwang26]

2 games 5 vs 5
Newhook and Dach 2 GF and 3 GA

Laine 0 GF and 0 GA

He’s playing with Evans and Armia. They’re our best defensive forwards and forecheckers. Laine has NOT contributed to that at all.

 

[Marioesque]

He’s playing with Evans and Armia. They’re our best defensive forwards and forecheckers. Laine has NOT contributed to that at all.

He also hasn't contributed to the 2nd line losing their matchups and being on the minus, while he's in the 4th line.

The second line is still defensively atrocious, that didn't improve by moving Laine.

Newhook is finally playing at his full ability, that's where the offensive buzz has come from but he's still not a very productive forward either. His ceiling is this.

 

[WeThreeKings]

He also hasn't contributed to the 2nd line losing their matchups and being on the minus, while he's in the 4th line.

The second line is still defensively atrocious, that didn't improve by moving Laine.

Newhook is finally playing at his full ability, that's where the offensive buzz has come from but he's still not a very productive forward either. His ceiling is this.

People were putting the blame for Laine's struggles on Dach and Newhook. Yet, those two immediately started producing again when Laine was removed from their line, and Laine didn't enjoy any productivity boost.

It shows what the eye test was showing, that Laine wasn't working on that line and it wasn't Dach/Newhook who were the problem offensively on that line. It was, in fact, Laine's penchant for turnovers and poor puck touches on the cycle.

Bringing Laine down in the bottom 6 while he finds his form, conditioning, confidence and play is the right tactic right now.

 

[vayrynen]

If Laine can be 0 GF and 0 GA on 5 v 5 for a full season, and lets say can score 30 apples on the PP he will definitely be worth every penny.

That would be something. His record is 20 PPG per season, and second-best brought 15 goals. The third best is this season as Laine hasn't reached two figures in other seasons.

 

[LaineBOOM]

That would be something. His record is 20 PPG per season, and second-best brought 15 goals. The third best is this season as Laine hasn't reached two figures in other seasons.

Has he ever played 0 minutes of 5 v 5 for the whole season, and the full PP of each PP with the energy he saves from playing no 5 v 5.

I guaraantee he would have the 0 GF, 0 GA, and 30 PP goals for that season.

Is that worth more than 2-3 million though. Maybe he would take it when he is 37 and if he is allowed to do whatever he wants while sitting on the bench.

 

[Marioesque]

People were putting the blame for Laine's struggles on Dach and Newhook.

Correctly. They are still not offensively good, but their resurgence offensively came with Laine in the line.
I agree the last few games they looked better than Laine, but it's the sum of it's parts. That line did not have the chemistry or the style that would get anything much out of Laine. Armia and Evans are better for him, but the limited ice time limits any production. This was easy to see in many plays where especially Laine and Armia played short, quick passes in the offensive zone. That's the kind of play Laine is good at, not standing in front of the net trying to tip the pucks, as he was reduced to in the 2nd line.

Yet, those two immediately started producing again when Laine was removed from their line, and Laine didn't enjoy any productivity boost.

They gave up more than they dished so I don't know if that's anything to write home about.

It shows what the eye test was showing, that Laine wasn't working on that line and it wasn't Dach/Newhook who were the problem offensively on that line.

Well then our eye test disagrees. Laine is the best offensive player out of the 3 by far but his role in the line was wrong. He's not a net front player

 

[LaineBOOM]

Cant wait for the 2 daytime games this weekend! I already told the fam that I will book the living room TV for those games, and that I will eat popcorn at least during the Sunday-game.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Correctly. They are still not offensively good, but their resurgence offensively came with Laine in the line.
I agree the last few games they looked better than Laine, but it's the sum of it's parts. That line did not have the chemistry or the style that would get anything much out of Laine. Armia and Evans are better for him, but the limited ice time limits any production. This was easy to see in many plays where especially Laine and Armia played short, quick passes in the offensive zone. That's the kind of play Laine is good at, not standing in front of the net trying to tip the pucks, as he was reduced to in the 2nd line.




They gave up more than they dished so I don't know if that's anything to write home about.


Well then our eye test disagrees. Laine is the best offensive player out of the 3 by far but his role in the line was wrong. He's not a net front player

Their resurgence offensively came after the break. Laine wasn't producing anything 5 on 5 and neither Newhook or Dach were on PP1 with Laine. So to attribute Dach and Newhook getting better offensively because Laine was on their line, is just false. He didn't help them 5 on 5 at all and didn't help them produce at all.

That line did not have any chemistry and it should have been broken up. But Laine is part of why the chemistry was so bad. He can't create off the cycle because his puck touches on the cycle were instant giveaways and he couldn't create off the rush because his timing isn't back yet so that was a turnover instead of moving the puck to an open Dach or Newhook and then getting open to shoot.

Nobody directed Laine to go stand in front of the net and tip pucks, nor did he actually do that. Dach was most often the guy getting to the front of the net and tipping pucks. This is a fabricated excuse for Laine.

I was not claiming they were suddenly better defensively without Laine. Just remarking that without Laine, they started producing and Laine didn't. That would point to the fact that Laine was the problem with the line, not the reverse. Yet Laine apologists wanted to blame Dach and Newhook for his lack of production. It was never true. The eye test could have told anyone that.

Laine is the best offensive player of the 3. He isn't playing better offensively than either Dach or Newhook currently. But Laine will do nothing offensively until he can maintain possession, make better reads at the blueline, and can play a give and go game, rather than a take and turn over. The two goals Fiala scored last night are the exact type of plays he should be trying to create for himself 5 on 5 and he certainly hasn't been doing that.

The fact is that Laine is rusty, is still recovering from a net new injury on top of that rust. I don't expect him to be prime Laine, as I didn't expect Dach to be dropped into where he was before his last injury, either. People just have to be realistic and stop trying to blame anyone but Laine. Laine is the problem right now. It's to be expected. It's fine. He will come around. It's not Dach. It's not Newhook. It's not phantom directives. It's his play, his confidence, and his rust. Let's just be real about it.

 

[26Mats]

Their resurgence offensively came after the break. Laine wasn't producing anything 5 on 5 and neither Newhook or Dach were on PP1 with Laine. So to attribute Dach and Newhook getting better offensively because Laine was on their line, is just false. He didn't help them 5 on 5 at all and didn't help them produce at all.

That line did not have any chemistry and it should have been broken up. But Laine is part of why the chemistry was so bad. He can't create off the cycle because his puck touches on the cycle were instant giveaways and he couldn't create off the rush because his timing isn't back yet so that was a turnover instead of moving the puck to an open Dach or Newhook and then getting open to shoot.

Nobody directed Laine to go stand in front of the net and tip pucks, nor did he actually do that. Dach was most often the guy getting to the front of the net and tipping pucks. This is a fabricated excuse for Laine.

I was not claiming they were suddenly better defensively without Laine. Just remarking that without Laine, they started producing and Laine didn't. That would point to the fact that Laine was the problem with the line, not the reverse. Yet Laine apologists wanted to blame Dach and Newhook for his lack of production. It was never true. The eye test could have told anyone that.

Laine is the best offensive player of the 3. He isn't playing better offensively than either Dach or Newhook currently. But Laine will do nothing offensively until he can maintain possession, make better reads at the blueline, and can play a give and go game, rather than a take and turn over. The two goals Fiala scored last night are the exact type of plays he should be trying to create for himself 5 on 5 and he certainly hasn't been doing that.

The fact is that Laine is rusty, is still recovering from a net new injury on top of that rust. I don't expect him to be prime Laine, as I didn't expect Dach to be dropped into where he was before his last injury, either. People just have to be realistic and stop trying to blame anyone but Laine. Laine is the problem right now. It's to be expected. It's fine. He will come around. It's not Dach. It's not Newhook. It's not phantom directives. It's his play, his confidence, and his rust. Let's just be real about it.

Laine may be a problem for Newhook, maybe even for Dach. But Newhook was definitely a problem for Laine. So many times I saw Laine start one of the give an go plays you alluded to, only for Laine to lose it.

But Newhook has been great recently with Anderson opposite him. It gives hope that he'll find a good bottom six role long term. Last year he was great with Armia and Gallagher or Roy as the center of a trio. Now he's good opposite Anderson. This bodes well. Would be great to have a good bottom six line that is dangerous on the counter rush and good defensively with Newhook in a staring role.

As for Dach, I don't think he's all the way back. As I really liked his trajectory before the injury. I'm giving him until the end of next season. I look forward to seeing him midseason next season. Patience is key.

As fof Laine, I don't know who his optimal linemates are. Next year, maybe Suzuki or Demidov. This year, maybe Dach and Armia, with Newhook - Evans - Anderson being the key two way line. Evans plays well with fast players. And he and Armia can still be the lead PK duo. But Laine might even be good with Dvo, who can cycle, go into the corners, and make plays with his linemates. New combos need to be tried...

 

[Marioesque]

Their resurgence offensively came after the break. Laine wasn't producing anything 5 on 5

He created chances for Newhook especially. But the finishing wasn't there. I'm really happy to see Newhook has reached a new level this road trip and hope it continues.

The problem offensively with the Laine-Dach-Newhook line was that the shooting chances came to the wrong players. And of course they were leaking goals. They still are, without Laine.

That line did not have any chemistry and it should have been broken up. But Laine is part of why the chemistry was so bad.

Agreed. Some styles don't fit. Laine can do playmaker stuff but he's much more useful as a target player rather than facilitator. He just naturally became the facilitator and dug pucks in corners and went to the net front because that's how the chem in that line worked.

Nobody directed Laine to go stand in front of the net and tip pucks, nor did he actually do that.

He was constantly there when the puck was in the offensive end, never tipped any but he was there to screen the goalie. When you have a shooter like him, he should not be in that position much at all. I don't know if it was coaching directed or they just naturally fell into those positions but it definitely didn't work and wouldn't work on paper either.

The fact is that Laine is rusty, is still recovering from a net new injury on top of that rust. I don't expect him to be prime Laine, as I didn't expect Dach to be dropped into where he was before his last injury, either. People just have to be realistic and stop trying to blame anyone but Laine. Laine is the problem right now.

Ok then. Let's ignore it was 2nd line taking in half the goals last night. Or that the 2nd line was still overall better than the 1st line. Let's ignore that 3rd line is invisible. But yes, the blame lies on the guy who was net neutral last game with very little ice time. That's who we should blame. He's the problem.

Not whatever injury/issues Suzuki has, or losing Guhle. The problem is Laine. Of course.

 

[WeThreeKings]

He created chances for Newhook especially. But the finishing wasn't there. I'm really happy to see Newhook has reached a new level this road trip and hope it continues.

The problem offensively with the Laine-Dach-Newhook line was that the shooting chances came to the wrong players. And of course they were leaking goals. They still are, without Laine.



Agreed. Some styles don't fit. Laine can do playmaker stuff but he's much more useful as a target player rather than facilitator. He just naturally became the facilitator and dug pucks in corners and went to the net front because that's how the chem in that line worked.


He was constantly there when the puck was in the offensive end, never tipped any but he was there to screen the goalie. When you have a shooter like him, he should not be in that position much at all. I don't know if it was coaching directed or they just naturally fell into those positions but it definitely didn't work and wouldn't work on paper either.



Ok then. Let's ignore it was 2nd line taking in half the goals last night. Or that the 2nd line was still overall better than the 1st line. Let's ignore that 3rd line is invisible. But yes, the blame lies on the guy who was net neutral last game with very little ice time. That's who we should blame. He's the problem.

Not whatever injury/issues Suzuki has, or losing Guhle. The problem is Laine. Of course.

Yes, the problem with Laine's production and play recently is Laine. It's not the fault of his linemates.

I'm not blaming the team losing on Laine. You are overly defensive of the guy. He's played poorly and it's been his own doing.

 

[Marioesque]

Yes, the problem with Laine's production and play recently is Laine. It's not the fault of his linemates.

I'm not blaming the team losing on Laine. You are overly defensive of the guy. He's played poorly and it's been his own doing.

I don't like oversimplified answers. Of course he isn't playing up to his abilities, I don't expect him to be there yet either. He looked better in the 4th line because of how they play.

I think the current line will work fine, but they need to be playing 3rd line minutes to get more offensive chances in the games. Nobody should ever expect a 4th liner to contribute much to the result, there's not enough time.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

Remember that management said they had no expectations for him from a hockey perspective, and that the only thing they care about is his health and happiness

Obviously fans want to see him play well but they did warn us he would be bad

 

[WeThreeKings]

I don't like oversimplified answers. Of course he isn't playing up to his abilities, I don't expect him to be there yet either. He looked better in the 4th line because of how they play.

I think the current line will work fine, but they need to be playing 3rd line minutes to get more offensive chances in the games. Nobody should ever expect a 4th liner to contribute much to the result, there's not enough time.

I don't think it was oversimplified at all.

I addressed the fact that Laine is rusty from time missed already, not to mention the net new injury to his knee this year. Expecting him to be in form is not fair to him, so for him to be struggling is perfectly reasonable as it was for Dach.

I addressed the fact that Laine and the line did not have chemistry.

I also addressed the fact that the line did not work because Laine was not able to support the rush style of Newhook or the cycle style of Dach due to poor decisions and poor puck touches.

Laine did not fail to produce 5 on 5 because Dach and Newhook were holding him back. Laine was the most frequently troublesome player on that line when it came to sustaining o-zone time.

Putting Laine on a line with better defensive conscience and a more straight forward style of play might help him long term. Let's see what happens.

Laine did not fail to produce because Dach and Newhook were bad. Laine wasn't making great plays that weren't being finished. He was consistently failing to make plays off the wall and would kill cycles. That's the fact.

When split, the time on ice didn't change for Dach/Newhook, but they did start to produce more, because Laine wasn't ruining every cycle chance by turning it over. Laine was the biggest problem on that line over the recent stretch. Again, it's to be expected.

We don't need to lay the blame at anyone else. It's completely normal that he is struggling.

 

[Marioesque]

I don't think it was oversimplified at all.

Ok, let's see.

I addressed the fact that Laine is rusty from time missed already, not to mention the net new injury to his knee this year.

I addressed the fact that Laine and the line did not have chemistry.

Ok doing good so far! Keep going!

We don't need to lay the blame at anyone else.

Le sigh.

What happened with the previously acknowledged data to arrive at this oversimplified answer?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Correctly. They are still not offensively good, but their resurgence offensively came with Laine in the line.
I agree the last few games they looked better than Laine, but it's the sum of it's parts. That line did not have the chemistry or the style that would get anything much out of Laine. Armia and Evans are better for him, but the limited ice time limits any production. This was easy to see in many plays where especially Laine and Armia played short, quick passes in the offensive zone. That's the kind of play Laine is good at, not standing in front of the net trying to tip the pucks, as he was reduced to in the 2nd line.




They gave up more than they dished so I don't know if that's anything to write home about.


Well then our eye test disagrees. Laine is the best offensive player out of the 3 by far but his role in the line was wrong. He's not a net front player

Dach and Newhook have consistently looked better at 5 on 5 than Laine. This isn't new.

Laine had an amazing run on the PP where everything went in. His shot is otherworldly and valuable. But he's also coming off a long layoff as well as a leg injury. Right now he's simply not playing effective hockey.

Dach has been very good for about two months now. Newhook has been more inconsistent but he does create plays even if he has had a very poor ability to finish. At least they are generating chances. Dach in particular has gotten really good at driving to the net (something this team really lacks.)

Laine has contributed a net negative at 5 on 5. And it's okay, I don't really blame him. We all saw what Dach looked like after his layoff and now Laine is probably going through something similar. Best to have him work it out on the 4th because he was derailing the 2nd line.

 

[Marioesque]

Dach and Newhook have consistently looked better at 5 on 5 than Laine. This isn't new.

It's pretty new. Like 5 games new.

Right now he's simply not playing effective hockey.

Agreed.

Dach has been very good for about two months now.

Compared to the start of the season yes

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It's pretty new. Like 5 games new.

Dach had been improving long before he started producing. No it's not new.

Since December 28th he's produced at a 53 point (33 goal) pace over 82 games. Much more inline with expectations and actually overperforming on goals. If he does that next year nobody will be unhappy with it.

Newhook is not quite there since that time - pacing for 45 over 82. Not great but not terrible either. Both could be better. You want better production out of your 2nd line but those numbers aren't that bad, esp when you consider Dach's goals.

Laine got off to a smoking hot start on the PP. Nobody will deny that. But he hasn't produced at 5 on 5 at all.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Dach had been improving long before he started producing. No it's not new.

Since December 28th he's produced at a 53 point (33 goal) pace over 82 games. Much more inline with expectations and actually overperforming on goals. If he does that next year nobody will be unhappy with it.

Newhook is not quite there since that time - pacing for 45 over 82. Not great but not terrible either. Both could be better. You want better production out of your 2nd line but those numbers aren't that bad, esp when you consider Dach's goals.

Laine got off to a smoking hot start on the PP. Nobody will deny that. But he hasn't produced at 5 on 5 at all.

And the reality is that he was killing cycles and rushes. He just was terrible with the puck. The whole line was a mess defensively so they deserved to be broken up.

Putting Laine down lower in the line-up and give him both PP units might be the right strategy until he shows better wherewithal with the puck.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

And the reality is that he was killing cycles and rushes. He just was terrible with the puck. The whole line was a mess defensively so they deserved to be broken up.

Putting Laine down lower in the line-up and give him both PP units might be the right strategy until he shows better wherewithal with the puck.

It's pretty amazing how one player can make or break a line. They are so much better without him right now.

Again, I don't want this to come across as me slamming Laine. Dach went through the same thing earlier this year and is now so much better. Hopefully the same thing happens for Patrick. If he could get his game going it would be a massive boost to the team. But for now, I think it makes a lot more sense to have him on the 4th.

Anderson is doing fine on the 2nd. He adds some speed and energy. Like Newhook he doesn't have much finish but at least the puck will spend more time in the offensive zone. And he's also one of the few players who rushes the net. And his speed is a nice compliment with Newhook as well. They might as well leave it that way for now.

 

[WeThreeKings]

It's pretty amazing how one player can make or break a line. They are so much better without him right now.

Again, I don't want this to come across as me slamming Laine. Dach went through the same thing earlier this year and is now so much better. Hopefully the same thing happens for Patrick. If he could get his game going it would be a massive boost to the team. But for now, I think it makes a lot more sense to have him on the 4th.

Anderson is doing fine on the 2nd. He adds some speed and energy. Like Newhook he doesn't have much finish but at least the puck will spend more time in the offensive zone. And he's also one of the few players who rushes the net. And his speed is a nice compliment with Newhook as well. They might as well leave it that way for now.

Yeah, it's just where he is in his return to the game after many injuries, mental health, missed games.. This isn't the best version of Laine, but this is what he is right now and it was the right decision to split them up.

I just see posters here and Marc Dumont on Twitter trying to say that it was the linemates holding him back as if Laine was doing all these productive things and they were failing him. It was the other way around.