Pat Lafontaine HHOF vs Mogilny vs Nicholls

[Frank Cannon PI]

Awesome post!

As an aside, perhaps you being in Winnipeg at the time can tell me more about MacClean back when he scored 100 playing with Hawerchuk? In Detroit, he initially started off well enough with Yzerman and Gallant, but by the halfway point, his play really tailed off, to the point that he was even benched a game during the playoffs, he was playing that bad. He got like a A in the midyear season grades in the Detroit Free Press only to get a D at the end of the year lol

First off, I'm still confused why John Ferguson traded him away for Brent Ashton. Ashton seemingly played well with Detroit in the playoffs in '87 and '88, he's two years younger than MacLean, and the Jets weren't really getting any where in the playoffs as they were constructed (though they finally won a game vs the Oilers in the playoffs). I get that. Still, I hated the trade.

I seem to recall reading in John Ferguson's book, that he thought that Paul MacLean's hands should in the Smithsonian. I also swear the same thing was said about Ray Sheppard by another GM (maybe Bowman).

As far as MacLean in 1984-85, it was his most consistent year, and that team's scoring was very balanced beyond the 1st line. I think MacLean had a tendency in his career to tail off around January/February, after relatively hot starts, but not that season.

It didn't hurt that Brian Mullen also had his best year as well (and the entire team), and they both consistently played on Hawerchuk's line. IMO, the best line up the Jets had in those days, was the Hawerchuk-MacLean-Mullen line. He would also play on Laurie Boschman's line too here and there, and Steen as well.

Boschman

Boschman had a nice run of his own that probably doesn't get much notice. MacLean could be moved up and down the line-up that year, and still be in a pretty good spot to put up numbers wherever he landed.

Take into account too, that for all of the flaws of the Jets defenseman during that decade, they had a number of pretty good number of puck-movers on the back end, still having Dave Babych that year (to go with Carlyle, Ellett, and Robert Picard).

This warmed my heart to see! I also absolutely adore the early nineties era of the Wings, it's my favorite time, even though my childhood time was the Wings glory years when they were a powerhouse winning all the cups and all. I was too young to appreciate the early nineties Wings at the time, and now I have to go and scrounge up all the old games from the hockey tape trading lists, but it's been totally worth it, because I simply enjoy early nineties hockey more than late nineties hockey anyway. Both in general, and for the Wings in particular, it's the perfect blend of skill and toughness at that time, it's just super enjoyable to watch.

I feel the same way.

For me, it's a combination of there still being helmetless guys, guys who can be traced back to the WHA or the NHL of the '70s, all of those great players who were born in the '60s, the influx of foreign players (at first), that the scoring was still high, the speed and skill was being showcased, there were still some of the older buildings, there were still throwback announcers who had been around for decades, and I like most of the drafts up until 1991 (at the latest 1993). Also, not having access to every game being televised, and listening to the radio from time-to-time, was greater than I realized (depending on who was the play-by-play announcer of course).

As an aside, I was excited that the Jets got Paul Ysebaert in '93, and that they could have a line of Ysebaert, Emerson, and Darrin Shannon, backing up Selanne/Zhamnov/Tkachuk, with Steen now on the 3rd line. People I knew were more excited about acquiring Emerson, but I was pulling for Yserbaert moreso.

Detroit acquiring him for very little (via New Jersey), and him putting up back-to-back 30 goal seasons, Detroit signing Ray Sheppard the next year, then the Kevin Miller for Ciccarelli deal. Carson also pacing for back-to-back 30 goal seasons of his own before being shipped off. I love those line-ups (not to mention that I'm VERY big on Mark Howe and Brad McCrimmon). To go with Primeau, Kozlov, even guys like Drake and Kennedy, and all of those other guys coming up or having to wait (Lapointe/Sillinger/Pushor/etc).

Really feel that they could have won it all in 1993, just got super unlucky with injuries during the playoffs, Cheveldae who played great in 1992 sucked BADLY, and Toronto was always going to be the worst matchup for them.

I thought it was going to be Pittsburgh vs Detroit, with Detroit winning it because of their depth. I was rooting for Jets, Buffalo (Hawerchuk), Islanders (Al Arbour), and Detroit that year.

 

[Frank Cannon PI]

Game logs don't seem to corroborate this at all.

Shawn Burr is mis-remembering things. He was scratched for five games in a row (unless he was hurt), immediately after playing the first game of the year of the 1993-94 campaign. He scores a hat trick on October 18th, 1993 vs the Sabres.

Bowman, of course, was behind the bench by that point.

He wasn't scratched immediately after that though, and he'd also play under Bowman for the 1994-95 season.

 

[tabness]

Thanks for the info on MacLean @Gorskyontario and @BarnabyJones PI, find it interesting that the January tail off seems to be a trend even before lol maybe he just couldn't deal as well with the rigor of the full season.

Looks like Hawerchuk is another guy who had real slim pickings to work with on the wings like LaFontaine while he was the man on Long Island and Yzerman especially around 1989-1990 and 1990-1991. The Demers era Wings were pretty much the opposite to the Jets in their defensemen composition. They had guys who could play the body and stay at home, but seriously lacked in skating or any real sort of finesse skill, especially with the departure of Darren Veitch (one of the Goose Loonies guys) who was finally showing some of the promise from when he was drafted during 1987-1988.

Ashton I would think was traded at least partly because of Goose Loonies. He wasn't a participant, but he made a scene about it in front of Wings writers at the time Mitch Albom and Keith Gave which led them to investigate it more and report on it.

Here’s how I remember Bob Probert: Goose Loonies, horrific headlines

Bob Probert's life is the focus of the documentary film, \

www.freep.com

Ysebaert was definitely one of my favorites from that time. He had a cool name, he could really fly, and he was one of those guys that seemed equally as adaptable and effective playing with both Fedorov and Yzerman.

There used to be music videos for some of the Wings players from PASS sports back in the early nineties. Fedorov got Neil Young's "Rockin' in the Free World", Yzerman got some Dire Straits joint that I honestly didn't like as much, and Ysebaert was noteworthy enough here to get Elton John's "Rocket Man" as that was his nickname in Detroit lol

Unfortunately, Ysebaert never did find the same scoring touch in the playoffs as he did in the regular season with the Wings which is why I think they moved on from him.

Awesome post!



First off, I'm still confused why John Ferguson traded him away for Brent Ashton. Ashton seemingly played well with Detroit in the playoffs in '87 and '88, he's two years younger than MacLean, and the Jets weren't really getting any where in the playoffs as they were constructed (though they finally won a game vs the Oilers in the playoffs). I get that. Still, I hated the trade.

I seem to recall reading in John Ferguson's book, that he thought that Paul MacLean's hands should in the Smithsonian. I also swear the same thing was said about Ray Sheppard by another GM (maybe Bowman).

As far as MacLean in 1984-85, it was his most consistent year, and that team's scoring was very balanced beyond the 1st line. I think MacLean had a tendency in his career to tail off around January/February, after relatively hot starts, but not that season.

It didn't hurt that Brian Mullen also had his best year as well (and the entire team), and they both consistently played on Hawerchuk's line. IMO, the best line up the Jets had in those days, was the Hawerchuk-MacLean-Mullen line. He would also play on Laurie Boschman's line too here and there, and Steen as well.

Boschman

View attachment 948864

Boschman had a nice run of his own that probably doesn't get much notice. MacLean could be moved up and down the line-up that year, and still be in a pretty good spot to put up numbers wherever he landed.

Take into account too, that for all of the flaws of the Jets defenseman during that decade, they had a number of pretty good number of puck-movers on the back end, still having Dave Babych that year (to go with Carlyle, Ellett, and Robert Picard).



I feel the same way.

For me, it's a combination of there still being helmetless guys, guys who can be traced back to the WHA or the NHL of the '70s, all of those great players who were born in the '60s, the influx of foreign players (at first), that the scoring was still high, the speed and skill was being showcased, there were still some of the older buildings, there were still throwback announcers who had been around for decades, and I like most of the drafts up until 1991 (at the latest 1993). Also, not having access to every game being televised, and listening to the radio from time-to-time, was greater than I realized (depending on who was the play-by-play announcer of course).

As an aside, I was excited that the Jets got Paul Ysebaert in '93, and that they could have a line of Ysebaert, Emerson, and Darrin Shannon, backing up Selanne/Zhamnov/Tkachuk, with Steen now on the 3rd line. People I knew were more excited about acquiring Emerson, but I was pulling for Yserbaert moreso.

Detroit acquiring him for very little (via New Jersey), and him putting up back-to-back 30 goal seasons, Detroit signing Ray Sheppard the next year, then the Kevin Miller for Ciccarelli deal. Carson also pacing for back-to-back 30 goal seasons of his own before being shipped off. I love those line-ups (not to mention that I'm VERY big on Mark Howe and Brad McCrimmon). To go with Primeau, Kozlov, even guys like Drake and Kennedy, and all of those other guys coming up or having to wait (Lapointe/Sillinger/Pushor/etc).



I thought it was going to be Pittsburgh vs Detroit, with Detroit winning it because of their depth. I was rooting for Jets, Buffalo (Hawerchuk), Islanders (Al Arbour), and Detroit that year.

 

[Stephen]

Fair points. I guess if you compare the Nicholls vs. Lafontaine thing you have to ask in their prime do you really take Nicholls? I don't think any of us do. And look, I like Nicholls, and 150 points is still 150 points, but I think what separates Nicholls in 1989 with Lafontaine in 1993 is that Gretzky was paving a bit of the path while Lafontaine was the driver of the bus on the team. You have to give credit where it is due and while I don't want to take anything away from Nicholls in 1989 there is no chance he comes near that if he is the #1 centre. While Lafontaine actually did do 148 points as a #1 centre, So I think it comes down to how much heavy lifting was being done, and Lafontaine definitely was doing more lifting.

Another thing I always say is who do you want on your team, Nicholls in 1989 or Lafontaine in 1993? If you are a GM is there one in the NHL that takes Nicholls? Probably not, the explosiveness of Lafontaine enough puts him over the top here. Another thing is goal scoring. Lafontaine is on a very short list for most assists in a season (95) since only 7 players did more in a season. But his goal scoring is better than Nicholls. Despite some injury woes, he had 41-54 goals in a straight 6 year span. 1992 he had 46 goals in 57 games. Also, Lafontaine missed most of 1994, 1995 and 1997. That was some serious time that was shelved right in his prime. That 1996 season where he has 91 points gives you a peek into what he could have done those other years. This is why he is the classic "per game" type of player, although I think his career is just slightly above the bar as it is.

Mentioning Turgeon, it is funny how they were traded for each other. Lafontaine was more popular in Buffalo than Turgeon was and Turgeon did take the Islanders further than Lafontaine did (although he was hurt in the Pens series in 1993 and wasn't a factor).

I think with the Mogilny/Lafontaine pairing you can say they were the perfect pair but that Lafontaine drove the bus more on that line. Two very talented boys though, hard to not like what they did together, but just based on his past seasons I think you give the edge to Lafontaine here. And he also had 21 more points that season between them two. And that Isles team in 1990 was just bad offensively. Lafontaine had 105 points while Brent Sutter was next with 68. He had no one to play with. So he was a great player long before 1993.

I'm trying to tap into the school yard wisdom of the day, thinking back about how Lafontaine and Nicholls were perceived. I think early 90s, specifically 1991-1993 Lafontaine was easily in the tier of a pre-championship Yzerman, Adam Oates, bluechip franchise superstar, forming that iconic duo with Mogilny. Pierre Turgeon, whom Lafontaine was directly traded for was at a similar level, but a couple of years younger and a bit of a transition to the Sakic, Modano, Sundin, Fedorov Roenick next wave at center. Franchise level Denis Savard and Dale Hawerchuk were quickly fading out past 1988.

From what I remember Bernie Nicholls stock was falling and really not on that superstar level. There were a lot of very productive sidekicks, anomalies, compilers in that era and I don't know if it's because of his decline in the mid 90s, but he's kind of lumped in with the randoms for me.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i would take lafontaine, but fwiw,

lafontaine’s career totals: 865 games, 1,013 pts

nicholls up to 1994: 885 games, 1,023 pts

 

[Crosby2010]

I'm trying to tap into the school yard wisdom of the day, thinking back about how Lafontaine and Nicholls were perceived. I think early 90s, specifically 1991-1993 Lafontaine was easily in the tier of a pre-championship Yzerman, Adam Oates, bluechip franchise superstar, forming that iconic duo with Mogilny. Pierre Turgeon, whom Lafontaine was directly traded for was at a similar level, but a couple of years younger and a bit of a transition to the Sakic, Modano, Sundin, Fedorov Roenick next wave at center. Franchise level Denis Savard and Dale Hawerchuk were quickly fading out past 1988.

From what I remember Bernie Nicholls stock was falling and really not on that superstar level. There were a lot of very productive sidekicks, anomalies, compilers in that era and I don't know if it's because of his decline in the mid 90s, but he's kind of lumped in with the randoms for me.

In that meaty part of Lafontaine's career from 1987-'93 I think the way I'd rank the centres is it would be Gretzky and Lemieux are in their own tier. Messier and Yzerman follow suit after this no doubt. You are right that by the early 1990s Savard and Hawerchuk weren't quite at the level they used to be, although Hawerchuk did have some good years even in the 1990s. Oates didn't come around until 1990. So yeah Lafontaine is the 5th best centre in that bracket. I have him behind Yzerman in those years for sure, but he's definitely 5th. And that's heavy competition too.

i would take lafontaine, but fwiw,

lafontaine’s career totals: 865 games, 1,013 pts

nicholls up to 1994: 885 games, 1,023 pts

Dang, that's pretty telling. Nicholls is just one of those types of players that you really don't know where to put him. He wasn't a superstar although he did have that huge 1989 season. You were alright if he was your #1 centre, REALLY doing good if he was your #2, centre but he just never stood above the pack of elite centres. Yet he was always productive. And he wasn't a good scorer on a bad team type of guy either. He was on decent teams. But he never stopped scoring. He never won a Cup, but he was productive in the playoffs. I think what it is with him is he was bland. Honestly, that's all I've got. He was tenacious but not a heavyweight fighter. Not a big cruncher, but certainly not a wimp. Never considered for Team Canada. If this was 1984 or 1987 he is never thought to be overlooked. If this is 1991 no one is saying that either. Strange. Individually he just isn't as explosive on his own compared to Lafontaine. I'd describe him as effective, extremely effective, but just not someone who stands out in order to put him in the HHOF. Yet he's better than a few that are in.