Pastrnak/Bergeron/Marchand vs Alfredsson/Spezza/Heatley

[Felidae]

This isnt about which group of players was better (though that may be taken into account) but which line was better in general, and who would win in a head to head matchup?

For the sake of discussion assume all else is equal between the defense and goaltending.

This is the version of players when they were a line at the time, so you're not getting 2022-24 Pastrnak.

Click to read more...

 

[Janvonpobben]

pizza line was better

 

[NyQuil]

I remember when Karlsson went up against this line in the playoffs in 2017 and won and it was a fascinating statistical exercise.

Karlsson is dominating the Bruins - TSN.ca

The ice is tilting toward Ottawa every time the Senators captain comes over the boards in the first-round series, Travis Yost writes.

www.tsn.ca

 

[BraveCanadian]

Boston’s line is definitely better overall but the Sens line might be a bit better offensively

 

[Golden_Jet]

Pizza line

 

[Stive Morgan]

Boston line is better and would probably win, but I personally like the Pizza line better.

 

[ESH]

Boston’s line is definitely better overall but the Sens line might be a bit better offensively

The Sens line is pretty obviously better offensively

 

[CanadienShark]

Give me Boston's trio.

I take Marchand over Alfie. I take Bergeron over Spezza. I take Pasta over Heatley.

It's not a huge gap, but clear for me.

 

[Imgoingtowork]

Alfredsson-Spezza-Heatley

 

[geebster]

As a huge fan of that Ottawa line and a hater of Boston... it's obviously the Boston line. I'd take Pasta over prime Heatley. I'd take Bergeron over Alfie, and Marchand when it matters isn't the setup guy Spezza is but he will produce.

If we are talking in a specific slice in time. Then it's important to remember Marchand hadn't fully emerged yet when they won the cup and Bergeron was at his peak. And Bergeron was old when Pasta was getting going, so I don't think any real version of that Boston line is better, since there was a point all 3 of Heatley, Spezza and Alfredsson were in their primes.

 

[NyQuil]

As a huge fan of that Ottawa line and a hater of Boston... it's obviously the Boston line. I'd take Pasta over prime Heatley. I'd take Bergeron over Alfie, and Marchand when it matters isn't the setup guy Spezza is but he will produce.

If we are talking in a specific slice in time. Then it's important to remember Marchand hadn't fully emerged yet when they won the cup and Bergeron was at his peak. And Bergeron was old when Pasta was getting going, so I don't think any real version of that Boston line is better, since there was a point all 3 of Heatley, Spezza and Alfredsson were in their primes.

I don’t know why Alfredsson is being compared to Bergeron here when they play different positions.

Alfie is better than Marchand, Bergeron is better than Spezza, and I think prime Heatley and Pastrnak are pretty close.

It’s an interesting comparison.

 

[geebster]

I don’t know why Alfredsson is being compared to Bergeron here when they play different positions.

Alfie is better than Marchand, Bergeron is better than Spezza, and I think prime Heatley and Pastrnak are pretty close.

It’s an interesting comparison.

I compared them as in the offense they played similar roles. Bergeron played in the middle of the ice more than Spezza did. On that line, Spezza played off the wall a lot more. I went with where they would be on the ice moreso than positions, but it ended up giving a weird Spezza vs Marchand comparison that didn't make sense, so your point is taken.

Either way, as I said at the end of my comment, in real life the Ottawa line had all 3 in their primes simultaneously while the Boston line did not. So in the real world if you took both lines head to head at the best that line could have actually existed then I suspect the Ottawa line is better. If you take the absolute best of all players, then I'll take Boston.

 

[NyQuil]

On that line, Spezza played off the wall a lot more.

Only on the PP.

Alfie's trademark zone entry was to bring it in on the wing, then do a stop and curl back, looking for a passing option in the centre, or create enough separation to go on net and shoot. The opposition never really knew when he'd do it, so it was a fairly reliable and efficient way to buy a little time and space. He was surprisingly difficult to knock off the puck with his big shoulders, and he didn't mind fishing pucks out of the corners.

Spezza would usually come in down the centre, looking for either the drop pass (which Ottawa fans would rapidly tire of sometimes) or Heatley's stick high in the air on the wing for the one-timer.

Heatley would be on the wing, but his real knack was knowing when and where to go around the net. He always seemed to be in the right place at the right time and he didn't miss on rebounds or open nets very often.

Spezza didn't spend a lot of time on the boards or in the corners, so I'm not sure I agree with that characterization.

On the PP, Spezza spent a lot of time on the half-boards, but that's a pretty standard position for a playmaker.

Personally, I think Alfredsson was the better player over Bergeron. He was better offensively IMO and he was no slouch defensively himself.

Seasons with 70+ points:
Alfredsson 103
Alfredsson 89
Alfredsson 87
Alfredsson 80
Bergeron 79
Alfredsson 78
Alfredsson 74
Bergeron 73
Alfredsson 71
Alfredsson 71
Alfredsson 70
Bergeron 70

Keep in mind, Bergeron's first season was in 2003-2004 so he missed virtually all of the dead puck era.

5 of Alfredsson's 70+ seasons occurred when NHL scoring was at its lowest.

 

[trentmccleary]

Here is an offensive and defensive comparison between these two lines for the time that they were together. It has been condensed down to what one average player on those lines would have produced during the relevant time periods.

The Ottawa trio was together for 4 seasons (2005-2009) and the Boston trio for 7 seasons (20016-2023). The full time periods are assessed, as well as the Boston trios best 4 year stretch (by PPG) and an adjustment for the Ottawa trio to 2018-2022 scoring levels.

EVGA - even strength goals against

NHL GPG	Trio	GP	G	A	Pts	GPG	PPG	EVGA	EVGA/GP
2.93​	Ott 05-09	76​	36​	52​	88​	0.48​	1.16​	54​	0.71​
3.00​	Bos 16-23	75​	35​	45​	80​	0.47​	1.07​	54​	0.72​
3.03​	Bos 18_22	74​	36​	47​	83​	0.49​	1.13​	52​	0.71​
EA*3.03	Ott 05-09	76​	38​	53​	91​	0.49​	1.20​	56​	0.73​

For those who came in believing that the Ottawa group was noticeably more productive offensively, this bears that out.
For those who expected to see the Boston group perform better defensively, the difference between the two lines is barely perceptible.

Either way, as I said at the end of my comment, in real life the Ottawa line had all 3 in their primes simultaneously while the Boston line did not.

The youngest and oldest in both trios were born 11 years apart. The middle player in the Ottawa trio is 3 years older than the youngest. The middle player in the Boston trio is 3 years younger than the oldest. There doesn't seem to be much difference between these two lines.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Excellent line for Ottawa, but I'd obviously go with the Boston's line

They bring more to the table, they are more versatile: Marchand, and especially Bergeron, are solid on defense too. And the Rat is simply the ultimate pest

 

[MOGlLNY]

I don’t know why Alfredsson is being compared to Bergeron here when they play different positions.

Alfie is better than Marchand, Bergeron is better than Spezza, and I think prime Heatley and Pastrnak are pretty close.

It’s an interesting comparison.

Is he? I think it's pretty close

 

[BraveCanadian]

Is he? I think it's pretty close

I hate Marchand but I’d take him over Alfie

 

[McGarnagle]

The wingers are surprisingly close in stats. I think the Gulf between Bergeron and Spezza in terms of all-around play favors Boston here.

 

[NyQuil]

Is he? I think it's pretty close

Maybe. I do think there’s a degree of recency bias.

I’m not going to get bent out of shape if someone prefers Brad but I think Alfredsson was better for longer.

Daniel had to play the bulk of his career in the DPE which is rarely recognized.

 

[NyQuil]

The wingers are surprisingly close in stats.

Not that surprising given the eras they played in.

Alfredsson was actually the 4th leading scorer in the NHL in the “aughts” (2000-2010) but the numbers themselves aren’t particularly gaudy.

 

[Gurglesons]

This isn't a question.

Perfection line in it's prime shits all over the PIZZA line.

 

[Gurglesons]

Maybe. I do think there’s a degree of recency bias.

I’m not going to get bent out of shape if someone prefers Brad but I think Alfredsson was better for longer.

Daniel had to play the bulk of his career in the DPE which is rarely recognized.

Marchand played in a similar era too for a good portion of his career.

 

[biturbo19]

Pizza always wins.

 

[Felidae]

The wingers are surprisingly close in stats. I think the Gulf between Bergeron and Spezza in terms of all-around play favors Boston here.

Bergeron is leagues better than Spezza defensively.

But the offensive gap between them is pretty significant as well. Though short lived, Spezza was a top 5 offensive talent in his prime, which coincided with his time on the pizza line.

 

[Xspyrit]

The answer is the Pizza line for 2005-06 and 2006-07 as they were just unstoppable. Unfortunately it didn't last due to Heatley being himself.

Boston's line any other year.