Pascal Vincent...YOUR opinion of him as coach

[ClevelandJacketFan]

I'm very glad he is no longer apart of the organization, and I'll leave it at that.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

good riddance.

was he given the job with little notice under chaotic circumstances? sure. but he was absolutely not "dealt a bad hand" – he had interviewed for the jackets coaching vacancy twice, didn't get it either time, and then was gifted the job and a roster that had arguably more talent than the team has this year (gaudreau, laine, healthy jenner, etc)

people can point to marginal improvements in scoring differential, but that leaves out the crucial context that he was being compared to a team that was significantly less talented, significantly more injured, and actively tanking. and the actual end result was still the same – last in the conference in both points and scoring differential.

his system was to pack the slot and allow teams to take whatever they wanted along the perimeter. players were talking about that in camp this year, and how it's a bad idea to give NHL skill that amount of time and space.

it's not a coincidence that we're getting such huge contributions from three young guys (marchenko, voronkov, johnson) who vincent publicly criticized and withheld ice time from last year.

pascal vincent turned the columbus blue jackets into a profoundly boring team to watch, in what turned out to be johnny gaudreau's final season on NHL ice. i will never forgive him for that.

our team immediately got better and became significantly more fun to watch once we replaced him with an actual adult who was qualified and capable of doing the job.

 

[HabsAddict]

A fact of life...he speaks French. Doubt he would be hired as the best choice for AHL coaching.

Rules you never break as a coach...

*You don't criticize your people in public. Vincent and StLouise did that recently.

*You never discourage people from their best talents.

*You don't whine about having to keep teaching people because they don't understand your "system".

*The buck stops at your desk, nowhere else.

All of the above Vincent has broken.

 

[majormajor]

good riddance.

was he given the job with little notice under chaotic circumstances? sure. but he was absolutely not "dealt a bad hand" – he had interviewed for the jackets coaching vacancy twice, didn't get it either time, and then was gifted the job and a roster that had arguably more talent than the team has this year (gaudreau, laine, healthy jenner, etc)

people can point to marginal improvements in scoring differential, but that leaves out the crucial context that he was being compared to a team that was significantly less talented, significantly more injured, and actively tanking. and the actual end result was still the same – last in the conference in both points and scoring differential.

his system was to pack the slot and allow teams to take whatever they wanted along the perimeter. players were talking about that in camp this year, and how it's a bad idea to give NHL skill that amount of time and space.

it's not a coincidence that we're getting such huge contributions from three young guys (marchenko, voronkov, johnson) who vincent publicly criticized and withheld ice time from last year.

pascal vincent turned the columbus blue jackets into a profoundly boring team to watch, in what turned out to be johnny gaudreau's final season on NHL ice. i will never forgive him for that.

our team immediately got better and became significantly more fun to watch once we replaced him with an actual adult who was qualified and capable of doing the job.

Your broader point is correct, and I don't disagree with a lot of this. But as it often happens, you've weakened your case by trying to include every arguable point. Like having to deal with last year's version of Patrik Laine is not a plus in the column that Vincent bungled things. The player was just awful, or injured, or both. Vincent deserves hazard pay for having to deal with that headache. The team the year prior had a better Laine, along with Gaudreau and Jenner. It was not a significantly lesser roster than the 2023-24 squad, perhaps not lesser at all given that it had Nyquist and Gavrikov on it.

This year's squad has an infinitely better Werenski and KJ on it - they looked different from the first day of camp, it's not coaching that did that. For me, Vincent's under-use of the Russians was criminal enough, I don't feel the need to stretch the argument much beyond that.

 

[thebus88]

Any conversations regarding Larsen and Vincent, and their quality as CBJ head coaches, need to acknowledge and ask who was behind the Laine to center experiment, along with whoever thought it was a good idea to have Fantilli live with the dude.

Not to mention, let’s throw out the defensive and center depth charts that these guys were dealing with. And the same terrible/worse goaltending.

I like Evason, but, this is nowhere near the same team the 2 prior guys had.

 

[NotCommitted]

Lot of players are playing simply better this year and while some guys have clearly taken steps as players, I think Vincent gets his share of the blame. He was coaching scared and the team played scared under him. The amount of blown 3rd period leads was ridiculous and that was largely on coaching in my book.

Sure, he got dealt a shit hand and I kind of feel for the guy he got his break under such shitty conditions but it's like he got a huge bag of lemons and decided they will be eaten for team breakfast every day, as they are, peel and everything.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Like having to deal with last year's version of Patrik Laine is not a plus in the column that Vincent bungled things. The player was just awful, or injured, or both. Vincent deserves hazard pay for having to deal with that headache.

laine was bad and vincent bungled things with him. those aren't mutually exclusive.

laine has been significantly worse at 5v5 this year than he ever was in columbus, but he keeps scoring power play goals because "looking at patrik laine's one-timer and deciding to put him in the left circle" is something no coach could ever mess up, except for PV.

also putting him at center immediately after his concussion (or at all) is another proof point.

The team the year prior had a better Laine, along with Gaudreau and Jenner.

I'd argue that's a byproduct of vincent simply not knowing how to get production out of skilled players (see: kent johnson). only getting 60 points out of johnny gaudreau can't be described as anything other than a coaching issue.

It was not a significantly lesser roster than the 2023-24 squad, perhaps not lesser at all given that it had Nyquist and Gavrikov on it.

I'd be remiss to not point out the difference in who was actually available in 22-23 on any given night, due to injuries.

the top four defensemen in 22-23, by actual TOI, were:

1. peeke
2. gudbranson
3. gavrikov
4. berni (!!!)

and in 23-24, under vincent:

1. provorov
2. werenski
3. gudbranson
4. severson

vincent oversaw marginal improvements compared to 22-23, but that team was essentially an AHL roster most nights, either due to injury or on purpose (they started actively tanking in, like, january)

This year's squad has an infinitely better Werenski and KJ on it - they looked different from the first day of camp, it's not coaching that did that. For me, Vincent's under-use of the Russians was criminal enough, I don't feel the need to stretch the argument much beyond that.

and frankly the argument does not need to be stretched beyond that, you're right. but I have made my bones on this board as the preeminent Pascal Vincent Hater, so I'm gonna keep stretching this thing as far as it goes.

kj looked like a future building block under larsen, then he looked like a lost cause under vincent. now he looks like a building block again. that's not a coincidence – he's not the only skill guy who regressed hard last year – and PV does not deserve the benefit of the doubt.

yes, he looked better in camp, but he also spent most of the summer rehabbing from surgery. kent even said himself that the change isn't confidence or fitness, but trust/usage.

 

[Monstershockey]

laine has been significantly worse at 5v5 this year than he ever was in columbus, but he keeps scoring power play goals because "looking at patrik laine's one-timer and deciding to put him in the left circle" is something no coach could ever mess up, except for PV.

Habs PP was already good before Laine showed up, and our PP is much better without him standing in one spot all the time. You can try all you want to make it look like Vincent had something to do with Laine playing bad, but it is incorrect. Funny thing is, is there is a slight chance he could play for Vincent again.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Habs PP was already good before Laine showed up, and our PP is much better without him standing in one spot all the time. You can try all you want to make it look like Vincent had something to do with Laine playing bad, but it is incorrect. Funny thing is, is there is a slight chance he could play for Vincent again.

vincent tried to fix the power play by taking laine out of the spot where he had his success as a power play threat. now he's back in that spot in montreal and, guess what, he's scoring PP goals in bunches.

he also made that decision when laine was coming back into the lineup after a major concussion. I was at that first game back, where he mishandled pucks and lost the zone 3-4 times at the blue line in the top right corner of the offensive zone.

I'm not making excuses for laine (he burned all of his goodwill with me a couple weeks ago) but it doesn't take a genius to understand that he's best utilized in a very specific spot on the power play. vincent's the only coach who couldn't figure that out, and the power play was bad for other reasons on top of that anyway.

 

[Monstershockey]

What is intersting is Montreal's PP was 25.8% before Laine came back. It dropped to 22.9 with Laine, and he was the only guy that scored PP goals. In the 3 games he's missed due to illness, their PP is 30%. I would say adding Laine hasn't made a difference. In fact, the Jackets PP has passed Montreal's. Laine hurt us more than helped, had nothing to do with Vincent.

 

[stevo61]

Players who actually got better under Vincent: Gudbranson and....

Things I miss about Vincent: uhh 12-6

 

[KJ Dangler]

He's a little better than Brad Larson. So probably the 2nd worst NHL coach I've seen in over 20 years.

I disagree , Larsen was much better .. he was smart enough to realize KJ should be on the ice, and on the power play .. Vincent will go down as our worst coach in history , edging out Arniel . Seemed like there was no plan in place under Vincent rather than bench young players for mistakes … It’s not coincidence that KJ, Voronkov, Marchenko, Sillinger , Werenski have all taken massive steps already under Evason . KJ has given interviews about the young players afraid to make mistakes …

 

[KJ Dangler]

What is intersting is Montreal's PP was 25.8% before Laine came back. It dropped to 22.9 with Laine, and he was the only guy that scored PP goals. In the 3 games he's missed due to illness, their PP is 30%. I would say adding Laine hasn't made a difference. In fact, the Jackets PP has passed Montreal's. Laine hurt us more than helped, had nothing to do with Vincent.

Yeah, the power play , and puck possession is WORLDS different under Evason . Vincent wanted to load up his power play with grizzled veterans , rather than skilled players .. Boone would get 22 min a night … Ignoring the fact KJ made the power play much better the year before . I won’t dispute Laine is a cancer .. one trick pony .. but to say Vincent wasn’t the issue just isn’t true . I couldn’t even tell you half the time we were on the power play the puck movement was so slow , and rarely kept in the zone for an extended period

 

[Monstershockey]

Yeah, the power play , and puck possession is WORLDS different under Evason . Vincent wanted to load up his power play with grizzled veterans , rather than skilled players .. Boone would get 22 min a night … Ignoring the fact KJ made the power play much better the year before . I won’t dispute Laine is a cancer .. one trick pony .. but to say Vincent wasn’t the issue just isn’t true . I couldn’t even tell you half the time we were on the power play the puck movement was so slow , and rarely kept in the zone for an extended period

I was mainly refering to Vincent/Laine relationship. Vincent did have his warts, no doubt.

While I am happy KJ is getting his time on the PP, you have to wonder if he is there if tragedy didn't happen with Johnny. He is most likely on PP1 over KJ.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Laine hurt us more than helped, had nothing to do with Vincent.

laine did himself no favors last year (although he was good under larsen) but let's not act like it was solely a patrik laine problem. pascal vincent's usage and handling of the player inarguably exacerbated laine's shortcomings and made the situation more toxic.

we're better off without laine, and we're better off without vincent. we don't need to make excuses for vincent, though – his tenure here was a failure, full stop.

 

[Aaaarrgghh]

vincent tried to fix the power play by taking laine out of the spot where he had his success as a power play threat. now he's back in that spot in montreal and, guess what, he's scoring PP goals in bunches.

he also made that decision when laine was coming back into the lineup after a major concussion. I was at that first game back, where he mishandled pucks and lost the zone 3-4 times at the blue line in the top right corner of the offensive zone.

I'm not making excuses for laine (he burned all of his goodwill with me a couple weeks ago) but it doesn't take a genius to understand that he's best utilized in a very specific spot on the power play. vincent's the only coach who couldn't figure that out, and the power play was bad for other reasons on top of that anyway.

Was Vincent responsible for the PP? I thought that was Mark Recchi. Yes, Vincent had final responsibility as head coach, but wasn't it Recchi whose actual job description was to run the PP?

 

[Monstershockey]

laine did himself no favors last year (although he was good under larsen) but let's not act like it was solely a patrik laine problem. pascal vincent's usage and handling of the player inarguably exacerbated laine's shortcomings and made the situation more toxic.

we're better off without laine, and we're better off without vincent. we don't need to make excuses for vincent, though – his tenure here was a failure, full stop.

I'm not making excuses for Vincent. We didn't need Vincent for it to be toxic with Laine. Guys already wanted Laine gone before Vincent took the job.

Not saying it would have worked out for Vincent had Columbus removed the problem before he took over, but the room may have been better, which could have led to better results on the ice.

You have to remember that both guys that the leadership said were problems, actually were problems. Had nothing to do with Vincent, or Larsen. Saying that doesn't mean that either guy was a good coach.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

Was Vincent responsible for the PP? I thought that was Mark Recchi. Yes, Vincent had final responsibility as head coach, but wasn't it Recchi whose actual job description was to run the PP?

the power play was inept for the entire season that pascal was the head coach. the buck stops with him. we don't need to make excuses for him – recchi ran the power play but it's not like vincent had no input or authority over him.

when the power play floundered under torts (when brad larsen was running it), torts brought in st-louis to try to fix it, becuase torts understood that the buck stopped with him.

I'm not making excuses for Vincent. We didn't need Vincent for it to be toxic with Laine. Guys already wanted Laine gone before Vincent took the job.

i don't disagree with this, but brad larsen – who is, by all accounts, a worse coach than vincent – had no problem getting laine to be productive, at least.

but it is needlessly generous to vincent to say that he didn't make things worse or couldn't have gotten more out of patrik laine.

Not saying it would have worked out for Vincent had Columbus removed the problem before he took over, but the room may have been better, which could have led to better results on the ice.

You have to remember that both guys that the leadership said were problems, actually were problems. Had nothing to do with Vincent, or Larsen. Saying that doesn't mean that either guy was a good coach.

here's what i am not saying:

1. that patrik laine wasn't a problem in the room
2. that brad larsen is a good coach

what i am saying is that pascal vincent was ill-equipped for the entirety of the job, and that things like "making sure that the room rises above cliquey bullshit" and "making sure the power play can occasionally score a goal" are things that may nominally fall on others (jenner and recchi, respectively) but ultimately are the head coach's responsibility.

i don't care how disliked laine and elvis were last year – or how deserved that ire was – there is no universe where those internal politics are a bigger hinderance to team performance than pascal vincent's coaching, and there's no universe where a head coach shouldn't have ultimately taken ownership of those politics to keep the room on course.

 

[tjcourt6]

Might I add that Pascal has never really been a coach that knows how to win. Even within his tenure in the Q (2000-08), he had several seasons with a solid roster but failed to achieve any meaningful success. He had a few seasons where he showed promise but he just could never really figure out the playoffs.

He consistently had competitive teams at the time but he could never translate that into playoff success. I feel like PV's coaching philosophy just doesn't fit the NHL. His track record shows from his time in the Q to the AHL all the way to the NHL that he has a tendency to favor immediate results over long term growth. I get it, teams use veterans to stabilize rosters but it shouldn't come at the expense of a young players development.

But to be fair, PV never really had the room. As someone mentioned before he applied for the job few times and was obviously not managements top choice the role. He inherited a dysfunctional situation that made it really hard to have the locker room with him. He was just never able to figure out how to implement a system that maximizes our team's potential. He was essentially trying to build credibility on a steep hill. Not to mention we were having our own cultural issues before he came in. I just don't think he had either the tools or the authority to set a new tone for the team.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I never thought that PV had the personality to be a head coach. He didn't have the force of personality of what I perceive to be a leader nor the personality to be the "players coach". I don't think he had the ability to coerce or sell his players to buy into his systems-however flawed they might have been.

Given that he was passed over twice by the same group that hired him, I'd imagine that they had significant doubts about his leadership abilities. If it weren't for the circumstances of his hire, I'm inclined to believe that he never would have been an NHL head coach. I really wouldn't look at him as a good choice as an AHL team given his actions in a lost season with the young and talented players on the CBJ roster. He's not head coaching material at any high level from what I can see. He's got a ton of experience and is probably best suited at the assistant level in either the AHL or NHL.

 

[Monstershockey]

i don't disagree with this, but brad larsen – who is, by all accounts, a worse coach than vincent – had no problem getting laine to be productive, at least.

but it is needlessly generous to vincent to say that he didn't make things worse or couldn't have gotten more out of patrik laine.

I don't think Larsen had any input on Laine playing well. Laine is going to do what Laine is going to do.

what i am saying is that pascal vincent was ill-equipped for the entirety of the job, and that things like "making sure that the room rises above cliquey bullshit" and "making sure the power play can occasionally score a goal" are things that may nominally fall on others (jenner and recchi, respectively) but ultimately are the head coach's responsibility.

Vincent wasn't the right guy for this team at this time. I can't think of too many first time NHL coaches that were second or third choices for the job that would have dealt with the dysfunction.

i don't care how disliked laine and elvis were last year – or how deserved that ire was – there is no universe where those internal politics are a bigger hinderance to team performance than pascal vincent's coaching, and there's no universe where a head coach shouldn't have ultimately taken ownership of those politics to keep the room on course.

I don't think Vincent had full control or say on certain things. I think the decision on the Elvis fiasco came from above Vincent and he had no say in it. When you just throw a guy you didn't want originally in there, I believe there was a leash on him.

Like I have been saying all along, Vincent was put in a position where he had no chance of succeeding. He was doomed from the start.

 

[majormajor]

yes, he looked better in camp, but he also spent most of the summer rehabbing from surgery. kent even said himself that the change isn't confidence or fitness, but trust/usage.

I didn't hear him say it wasn't fitness. I did hear him say it was the usage and the longer leash and I believe that too, but that's also connected with the roster around him and how good he is relative to the other players with his skating improvements. Like last year's KJ, with his weak skating, was not good enough to take minutes from Johnny Gaudreau and the cast around him. This year there was more opportunity to get a PP job and he's much better, so it's a natural choice. Vincent probably puts him there on PP1 too, we don't have another primary playmaker, he's the only one left.

It's mostly the fitness and skating. He was much faster in camp than the year prior, we all noticed it. He was doing things on the ice immediately that he couldn't do before. This was before any new coaching came into play. And as I predicted, KJ's summer time improvements have gradually faded as the season grinds on. He looks slower and has 4 pts in his last 10 games, just 2 at even strength. I love the longer leash for mistakes, I think Evason is a much better coach partly because of that, but you must acknowledge that KJ's progress mostly depends on things outside of coaching.

vincent tried to fix the power play by taking laine out of the spot where he had his success as a power play threat. now he's back in that spot in montreal and, guess what, he's scoring PP goals in bunches.

Laine barely scored in three years prior on the CBJ PP, in that spot. This is not a Pascal Vincent issue, full stop.

But to be fair, PV never really had the room. As someone mentioned before he applied for the job few times and was obviously not managements top choice the role. He inherited a dysfunctional situation that made it really hard to have the locker room with him. He was just never able to figure out how to implement a system that maximizes our team's potential. He was essentially trying to build credibility on a steep hill. Not to mention we were having our own cultural issues before he came in. I just don't think he had either the tools or the authority to set a new tone for the team.

A lot of great points here. Welcome to the board!

Are you new or just a new account?

Either way, I love the profile pic with big Dmitri. And it's always good to see more Maritimers around here. I'm originally from Cape Breton and went to UNB Fredericton, but I've mostly lived in the States since then. I went through Moncton a hundred times though haven't explored much.

 

[tjcourt6]

A lot of great points here. Welcome to the board!

Are you new or just a new account?

Thanks!

I'm pretty new-ish. Was introduced to this site roughly about a year ago and mostly used it to check in on threads and trade rumors.. Figured I'd join the fun and join a conversation ahah.

Either way, I love the profile pic with big Dmitri. And it's always good to see more Maritimers around here. I'm originally from Cape Breton and went to UNB Fredericton, but I've mostly lived in the States since then. I went through Moncton a hundred times though haven't explored much.

Great to be the next addition the group of Maritimers on here haha jackets fans in these parts are a rare breed. Large majority of my friends and family are divided between the habs and the leafs. Myself I'm from Campbellton New Brunswick but I enjoy Moncton alot more. Our cities team, the Moncton Wildcats are good watch too. Had a few WJC games in 2023, that was pretty fun too haha. Ironically myself though I've never been down into the states yet.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

It's mostly the fitness and skating. He was much faster in camp than the year prior, we all noticed it. He was doing things on the ice immediately that he couldn't do before. This was before any new coaching came into play.

judging by the eye test, kent definitely got faster this year, but i'd be remiss to not point out:

1. he's getting more touches and a longer leash, and they're playing a faster system, which means he can play faster
2. he got surgery at the start of the offseason, which limits how much time he could have actually spent getting stronger/faster

again, yes, it was noticeable that he was moving faster, but a lot of his breakout (and the appearance of playing faster) can be explained by the player having more confidence (puck touches, too), simplicity of system, and a clearly defined role as a puck carrier.

And as I predicted, KJ's summer time improvements have gradually faded as the season grinds on. He looks slower and has 4 pts in his last 10 games, just 2 at even strength. I love the longer leash for mistakes, I think Evason is a much better coach partly because of that, but you must acknowledge that KJ's progress mostly depends on things outside of coaching.

KJ's looked fine to me over that span, the issue right now is more that the team has one working line at 5v5 and he's not on it. he still looks fast and confident, but as portzline wrote today, teams are defending him a bit differently.

in the last few games i've been to he's still looked good at 5v5 and exceptional on the power play. but the forward group is depleted right now and that's why the production is down.

if there's one big thing to point to with his production, it's SH% regression tbh

Laine barely scored in three years prior on the CBJ PP, in that spot. This is not a Pascal Vincent issue, full stop.

not denying that the power play was also hapless under larsen, but… pascal vincent was literally on that staff, too! and as the head coach, all that stuff rolls up to him anyway.

there are bigger fish to fry with the vincent era, as you said, but i cannot believe that people think that he is beyond reproach for the power play being dogshit for the literal entirety of his tenure.

 

[majormajor]

there are bigger fish to fry with the vincent era, as you said, but i cannot believe that people think that he is beyond reproach for the power play being dogshit for the literal entirety of his tenure.

Beyond reproach is a different standard, like an avid monarchist would say the King is beyond reproach. What Vincent is, is not the reason our PP sucked, which it did for 7 years prior to him taking over.