Confirmed with Link: Pascal Vincent out as Head Coach

Ice9

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Jun 25, 2016
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In the woods
It was pretty clear with new management coming in this would result. Dont know if it was his plans that were in effect last season and what may have been a directive from above so with a stern look ahead I'll just say, "Good luck PV"...
 

Doggy

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Oct 11, 2011
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honestly feel bad for PV here. Everything he's had in his NHL career has been a let down so far.

Wanted the CBJ HC job, didn't get it. But they liked him enough to give him a job as Larsen's top assistant.

2 years later, interviews again, doesn't get it, and is forced to stay as an assistant for a guy he doesn't know or have any relationship with.
Is that correct? I thought Vincent was given permission to look elsewhere.
 

Doggy

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I believe he was granted head coaching interviews but was not granted permission for assistant interviews
If that's the case then the question is...

At this point in PV's coaching career, do you think yet another year as an assistant or a year actually running his own bench (regardless of the challenges) diversifies his experience and advances his career goals?

While I am sure PV would have liked another year as HC here I am confident his one year as head coach will be beneficial to him in the future.
 

Xoggz22

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honestly feel bad for PV here. Everything he's had in his NHL career has been a let down so far.

Wanted the CBJ HC job, didn't get it. But they liked him enough to give him a job as Larsen's top assistant.

2 years later, interviews again, doesn't get it, and is forced to stay as an assistant for a guy he doesn't know or have any relationship with.

Then that guy gets himself fired the day before camp and PV gets thrust into his dream job with no prep time as the head guy. He's also tasked with hiring an assistant coach on the fly as he's running camp that he didn't put together to coach a system he doesn't entirely know himself (he said it was Babcocks system with some tweaks).

Then your boss gets fired and the writing is on the wall for you.

Sucks, but thats the business. I hope PV lands on his feet. I think he'll be a good coach.
Very well summed up and my thoughts to a T!
 

KJ Dangler

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Oct 21, 2006
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#CBJ POHO/GM Don Waddell said Pascal Vincent's firing stems from unspecified things he learned from talking to players and others w/ the team about the past two seasons.
'It was stuck in my mind, and I couldn’t get past it.'
 

CBJWerenski8

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#CBJ POHO/GM Don Waddell said Pascal Vincent's firing stems from unspecified things he learned from talking to players and others w/ the team about the past two seasons.
'It was stuck in my mind, and I couldn’t get past it.'
The article too if people are interested: (paywalled I think)



“I wouldn’t say it was systems and strategies,” Waddell said of replacing Vincent. “I watched the team play. Good coaches figure out how to adjust in games and so forth ... I just couldn’t get comfortable that we could put some of the things that happened last year ― and the year before even — out of (the picture). It was stuck in my mind, and I couldn’t get past it.”“I’ve reached out to a lot of players, and some players are more vocal than others,” Waddell said. “You’re not letting players dictate who your coach is, but you heard some things that probably weren’t what I expected to hear. At the end of the day, the bottom line is that I made the decision and I’ve obviously got support from ownership that we need a new voice in that locker room.”
So, he's out and the Jackets' fourth head coach in less than 15 months will be decided soon.

“The young coaches, you know ... Lars tried and he’s a good guy, and Pazzy’s a good guy too,” Waddell said. “They’re all good people. That’s the hardest part. It was tough talking to (Vincent) because I’ve been here about three weeks and I’m telling him he’s not going to have his job. But the bottom line is, we need to get this group together and put our best foot forward. And it was just the feeling I had that we need to have a different voice.”
 
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NotCommitted

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Jul 4, 2013
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“You’re not letting players dictate who your coach is, but you heard some things that probably weren’t what I expected to hear."

Not what you want to hear from your new GM. Can't say I'm surprised but it's a bit concerning. Hope it was just Vincent...
 
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GoJackets1

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There was a quote from Z at the end of the season that I read at the time as a pretty large indictment of Pascal. Something about the system “having issues but it’s what we’ve got” or something like that. When he said that, I was pretty damn sure Vincent was done for with new management. These comments from Waddell give credence to the idea that Vincent’s system, his adaptability, and perhaps even his ability to run practices were not what they needed to be.

Hoping to hear today that a new coach will likely be able to have input on his own staff.
 
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Iron Balls McGinty

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Makes me wonder how much a lot of those head scratcher moments we thought as fans also impacted players when it comes to scratches and treatment.

I think Don has been around long enough to know a bullshitter and a whiner but if there were things that rubbed players the wrong way I’d like to think he sat back and objectively looked at both sides of the situation.
 

Double-Shift Lasse

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“You’re not letting players dictate who your coach is, but you heard some things that probably weren’t what I expected to hear."

Not what you want to hear from your new GM. Can't say I'm surprised but it's a bit concerning. Hope it was just Vincent...
Um, it was players who did an end around of the organization to get Pascal’s predecessor removed. What kind of track record does this player group have?
 

CBJWerenski8

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Initially I was pretty unhappy we fired Vincent. However, now in hearing these quotes it appears that it was the right call.
 
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CBJWerenski8

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Again, unless the players are "wrong."
That’s the next step. If certain players continue to be out of line or continue to defy the rules, they’re next. But you have to have a strong confident hand on the wheel in order to keep them in line and set standards
 
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Double-Shift Lasse

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That’s the next step. If certain players continue to be out of line or continue to defy the rules, they’re next. But you have to have a strong confident hand on the wheel in order to keep them in line and set standards
Maybe they didn't like Pascal's "strong, confident hand"?

I'm just playing devil's advocate, mostly, although I think the question of "do we trust this player group" is valid.
 

NotWendell

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I'll go so far as to say I DON'T trust this player group and I'm starting to question our (player) leadership group.

Going back to the Babcock debacle, our "leadership" group gives the appearance of being passive, out of touch with many of the players and generally LACKING leadership in keeping everybody in line and focused on the primary team goal.
 
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VT

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I'll go so far as to say I DON'T trust this player group and I'm starting to question our (player) leadership group.

Going back to the Babcock debacle, our "leadership" group gives the appearance of being passive, out of touch with many of the players and generally LACKING leadership in keeping everybody in line and focused on the primary team goal.
I'll put it this way, out of the trio of Werenski, Jenner and Gaudreau, I'd keep only Zach. I also thought Gudbranson would have been a better captain than Boone.
 
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Forepar

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I'll go so far as to say I DON'T trust this player group and I'm starting to question our (player) leadership group.

Going back to the Babcock debacle, our "leadership" group gives the appearance of being passive, out of touch with many of the players and generally LACKING leadership in keeping everybody in line and focused on the primary team goal.
We "kind of know" who the "leadership" group is - but do we truly know who the leaders are, and who the committed followers are as well?

Part of the problem I see is that none of the CBJs supposed most-talented players are, at least from the outside, seen as strong leaders. Fantilli hopefully brings both skill and leadership, but that is still percolating for several years. From 50,000 feet, JG and PL provide little leadership - and it would be hard for PL to provide much leadership when oft-injured and/or in the PAP with no contact with the team. I don't know what Werenski provides - not as a criticism, we just don't know.

Boone receives both praise and criticism for what appears to be leadership more by example than by relationships/words (you need both, with example being first in my book). Is Boone truly "the" or at least "one of the" leaders as viewed by the entirety of the room, or is he quiet enough that some of the the room, and especially the talented vets, tend to do their own thing rather than support/help lead/etc...? Sometimes being a good leader means following the best leader - whomever that might be for this group.

I am not suggesting that PV should have been kept - under the circumstances, PV needed to be replaced imo. But I am starting to lean into the notion that not all is right within the room - not nefarious, just not the cohesive team that we think we have with only a few exceptions (Elvis and PL being the obvious exceptions). Maybe it's not enough leaders, maybe it's not enough committed followers? That could also explain Elvis' issues in part. There very well may be some PTSD issues for him, but a cohesive room knows how to deal with a not-quite-right goalie, Whether it is PTSD or just flaky, conceited, whatever, goalies are weird on every team. But if things aren't cohesive generally in the room and no true leader or leadership group that EVERYONE accepts, and no committed cohesive group of followers, then a personality like Elvis drives wedges between Elvis and the team and also among all the factions (no matter how subtle the factions) within the room. Liking one another isn't what I am referring to - it's the ability to influence a teammate and their performance. It's the ability to permit a teammate to influence yourself and your performance. That doesn't absolve Elvis (or anyone else) from fault, but it could explain in part why Elvis appears to not be part of the room and is not trusted (or whatever word you want to use) by the room.

All of the above is nothing but conjecture. Like NotWendell (and others), I am starting to doubt the room and think that coaching moves are just the beginning. I don't have reason to think that any one player or group of players is the poison pill - more like it is a rudderless ship. My read between the lines of the recent statements from GM/PHO Waddell, and statements from players (Werenski, Gudy, even JG) in the past months is that that Waddell may be finding that the room needs to be reconstructed not just from a talent/positional view but from a leadership/follower view. Managing that leadership/following issue is the most difficult job a coach has. IMO, PV as a rookie last-minute add coach did not have the built up trust/cache with the room to effectively handle that issue - hell, it may have been beyond any coach's ability given the construction of the roster. The need may not be for a complete housecleaning, but some very targeted moves, both in and out of the roster. If that means moving on from Elvis, that doesn't mean Elvis is a bad guy or bad teammate, just the wrong fit for the current roster. Same goes for any other player on the roster, from JG/PL down to the #7D - the pieces have to fit completely, not just talent or just positional or just contract amount or just leadership/following skills. Yes, CBJ needs more talent, but just as, if not more, importantly, they need all factors to fit to have a decent chance to succeed, let alone win a SC. I am starting to wonder how many truly fitting pieces CBJ has - not as a criticism of any player, but as an observation about the entire roster as a whole. I have read many others write the past few years about how poorly the roster is constructed, and I generally perceived that in terms of positional strengths/weaknesses. I think some of the Board's comments were going beyond that and hitting on the issues outlined above long before me. Sometimes the vitriol about a certain player clouded the arguments - instead of focusing on just a bad fit, the bad fit had to be a bad player/person/teammate.

I have no aversion to keeping Elvis or PL or JG or any one player (except Jeff Carter) - they may be part of the answer, for all I know. It's possible someone like Boone could be one of the ill-fitting pieces - I personally don't think that about Boone -- but what do I know about how this team functions at practice, in the room, outside the room and on the ice? What I do know is that the current roster DOES NOT WORK. I suppose the old adage "In Jarmo we trust" now becomes "In DW we trust." It's a long road back to 2019; it's an even longer road to conference and SC finals.

EDIT: JUST SAW/READ VT's post (I was typing my thesis). I have my personal opinions but none of those opinions are informed with fact - just 50,000 foot perceptions. VT may be right, or VT may be wrong, as the particular individuals. But t I would agree with VT that some structural/philosophical changes are needed to the room.
 
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Iron Balls McGinty

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Aug 5, 2005
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We "kind of know" who the "leadership" group is - but do we truly know who the leaders are, and who the committed followers are as well?

Part of the problem I see is that none of the CBJs supposed most-talented players are, at least from the outside, seen as strong leaders. Fantilli hopefully brings both skill and leadership, but that is still percolating for several years. From 50,000 feet, JG and PL provide little leadership - and it would be hard for PL to provide much leadership when oft-injured and/or in the PAP with no contact with the team. I don't know what Werenski provides - not as a criticism, we just don't know.

Boone receives both praise and criticism for what appears to be leadership more by example than by relationships/words (you need both, with example being first in my book). Is Boone truly "the" or at least "one of the" leaders as viewed by the entirety of the room, or is he quiet enough that some of the the room, and especially the talented vets, tend to do their own thing rather than support/help lead/etc...? Sometimes being a good leader means following the best leader - whomever that might be for this group.

I am not suggesting that PV should have been kept - under the circumstances, PV needed to be replaced imo. But I am starting to lean into the notion that not all is right within the room - not nefarious, just not the cohesive team that we think we have with only a few exceptions (Elvis and PL being the obvious exceptions). Maybe it's not enough leaders, maybe it's not enough committed followers? That could also explain Elvis' issues in part. There every well may be some PTSD issues for him, but a cohesive room knows how to deal with a not-quite-right goalie, Whether it is PTSD or just flaky, conceited, whatever, goalies are weird on every team. But if things aren't cohesive generally in the room and no true leader or leadership group that EVERYONE accepts, and no committed cohesive group of followers, then a personality like Elvis drives wedges between Elvis and the team and also among all the factions (no matter how subtle the factions) within the room. Liking one another isn't what I am referring to - it's the ability to influence a teammate and their performance. It's the ability to permit a teammate to influence yourself and your performance. That doesn't absolve Elvis (or anyone else) from fault, but it could explain in part why Elvis appears to not be part of the room and is not trusted (or whatever word you want to use) by the room.

All of the above is nothing but conjecture. Like NotWendell (and others), I am starting to doubt the room and think that coaching moves are just the beginning. I don't have reason to think that any one player or group of players is the poison pill - more like it is a rudderless ship. My read between the lines of the recent statements from GM/PHO Waddell, and statements from players (Werenski, Gudy, even JG) in the past months is that that Waddell may be finding that the room needs to be reconstructed not just from a talent/positional view but from a leadership/follower view. Managing that leadership/following issue is the most difficult job a coach has. IMO, PV as a rookie last-minute add coach did not have the built up trust/cache with the room to effectively handle that issue - hell, it may have been beyond any coach's ability given the construction of the roster. The need may not be for a complete housecleaning, but some very targeted moves, both in and out of the roster. If that means moving on from Elvis, that doesn't mean Elvis is a bad guy or bad teammate, just the wrong fit for the current roster. Same goes for any other player on the roster, from JG/PL down to the #7D - the pieces have to fit completely, not just talent or just positional or just contract amount or just leadership/following skills. Yes, CBJ needs more talent, but just if not more importantly, they need all factors to fit to have a decent chance to succeed, let alone win a SC. I am starting to wonder how many truly fitting pieces CBJ has - not as a criticism of any player, but as an observation about the entire roster as a whole. I have read many others write the past few years about how poorly the roster is constructed, and I generally perceived that in terms of positional strengths/weaknesses. I think some of the Board's comments were going beyond that and hitting on the issues outlined above long before me. Sometimes the vitriol about a certain player clouded the arguments - instead of focusing on just a bad fit, the bad fit had to be a bad player/person/teammate.

I have no aversion to keeping Elvis or PL or JG or any one player (except Jeff Carter) - they may be part of the answer, for all I know. It's possible someone like Boone could be one of the ill-fitting pieces - I personally don't think that about Boone but what do I know about how this team functions at practice, in the room, outside the room and on the ice. What I do know is that the current roster DOES NOT WORK. I suppose the old adage "In Jarmo we trust" now becomes "In DW we trust." It's a long road back to 2019; it's an even longer road to conference and SC finals.

EDIT: JUST SAW/READ VT's post (I was typing my thesis). I have my personal opinions but none of those opinions are informed with fact - just 50,000 foot perceptions. VT may be right, or VT may be wrong, as the particular individuals. But t I would agree with VT that some structural/philosophical changes are needed to the room.
Long read but since I’m in the office scrolled through quickly and see lots of points I agree with.
 

VT

Registered User
Jan 24, 2021
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We "kind of know" who the "leadership" group is - but do we truly know who the leaders are, and who the committed followers are as well?

Part of the problem I see is that none of the CBJs supposed most-talented players are, at least from the outside, seen as strong leaders. Fantilli hopefully brings both skill and leadership, but that is still percolating for several years. From 50,000 feet, JG and PL provide little leadership - and it would be hard for PL to provide much leadership when oft-injured and/or in the PAP with no contact with the team. I don't know what Werenski provides - not as a criticism, we just don't know.

Boone receives both praise and criticism for what appears to be leadership more by example than by relationships/words (you need both, with example being first in my book). Is Boone truly "the" or at least "one of the" leaders as viewed by the entirety of the room, or is he quiet enough that some of the the room, and especially the talented vets, tend to do their own thing rather than support/help lead/etc...? Sometimes being a good leader means following the best leader - whomever that might be for this group.

I am not suggesting that PV should have been kept - under the circumstances, PV needed to be replaced imo. But I am starting to lean into the notion that not all is right within the room - not nefarious, just not the cohesive team that we think we have with only a few exceptions (Elvis and PL being the obvious exceptions). Maybe it's not enough leaders, maybe it's not enough committed followers? That could also explain Elvis' issues in part. There every well may be some PTSD issues for him, but a cohesive room knows how to deal with a not-quite-right goalie, Whether it is PTSD or just flaky, conceited, whatever, goalies are weird on every team. But if things aren't cohesive generally in the room and no true leader or leadership group that EVERYONE accepts, and no committed cohesive group of followers, then a personality like Elvis drives wedges between Elvis and the team and also among all the factions (no matter how subtle the factions) within the room. Liking one another isn't what I am referring to - it's the ability to influence a teammate and their performance. It's the ability to permit a teammate to influence yourself and your performance. That doesn't absolve Elvis (or anyone else) from fault, but it could explain in part why Elvis appears to not be part of the room and is not trusted (or whatever word you want to use) by the room.

All of the above is nothing but conjecture. Like NotWendell (and others), I am starting to doubt the room and think that coaching moves are just the beginning. I don't have reason to think that any one player or group of players is the poison pill - more like it is a rudderless ship. My read between the lines of the recent statements from GM/PHO Waddell, and statements from players (Werenski, Gudy, even JG) in the past months is that that Waddell may be finding that the room needs to be reconstructed not just from a talent/positional view but from a leadership/follower view. Managing that leadership/following issue is the most difficult job a coach has. IMO, PV as a rookie last-minute add coach did not have the built up trust/cache with the room to effectively handle that issue - hell, it may have been beyond any coach's ability given the construction of the roster. The need may not be for a complete housecleaning, but some very targeted moves, both in and out of the roster. If that means moving on from Elvis, that doesn't mean Elvis is a bad guy or bad teammate, just the wrong fit for the current roster. Same goes for any other player on the roster, from JG/PL down to the #7D - the pieces have to fit completely, not just talent or just positional or just contract amount or just leadership/following skills. Yes, CBJ needs more talent, but just if not more importantly, they need all factors to fit to have a decent chance to succeed, let alone win a SC. I am starting to wonder how many truly fitting pieces CBJ has - not as a criticism of any player, but as an observation about the entire roster as a whole. I have read many others write the past few years about how poorly the roster is constructed, and I generally perceived that in terms of positional strengths/weaknesses. I think some of the Board's comments were going beyond that and hitting on the issues outlined above long before me. Sometimes the vitriol about a certain player clouded the arguments - instead of focusing on just a bad fit, the bad fit had to be a bad player/person/teammate.

I have no aversion to keeping Elvis or PL or JG or any one player (except Jeff Carter) - they may be part of the answer, for all I know. It's possible someone like Boone could be one of the ill-fitting pieces - I personally don't think that about Boone but what do I know about how this team functions at practice, in the room, outside the room and on the ice. What I do know is that the current roster DOES NOT WORK. I suppose the old adage "In Jarmo we trust" now becomes "In DW we trust." It's a long road back to 2019; it's an even longer road to conference and SC finals.

EDIT: JUST SAW/READ VT's post (I was typing my thesis). I have my personal opinions but none of those opinions are informed with fact - just 50,000 foot perceptions. VT may be right, or VT may be wrong, as the particular individuals. But t I would agree with VT that some structural/philosophical changes are needed to the room.
Do you know who players are problem? For example Werenski and Gaudreau, also Kuraly said very nice about Laine. Marchenko too. We do not know if Elvis has really problems with guys. On the other side it may be a player we would never have thought of. Or there are no groups. To say someone is a "pest" is very tricky.
 

Forepar

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Nov 6, 2011
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South-Central Ohio
Do you know who players are problem? For example Werenski and Gaudreau, also Kuraly said very nice about Laine. Marchenko too. We do not know if Elvis has really problems with guys. On the other side it may be a player we would never have thought of. Or there are no groups. To say someone is a "pest" is very tricky.
No idea who the "problem" players are. It may be that no one particular player is a "problem" but simply that the pieces do not fit.
That makes Waddell's task hard - unlike Major Major in a different thread, I don't think parting with Elvis & Laine and adding a solid D-man addresses this team's roster construction deficiencies. Maybe those three moves are needed, and would be a start, but from what I am reading, there appears to be deeper issues under the surface. A player MIA due to PAP and a very demonstrative goalie are not, alone, going to cause a lack of cohesiveness for the entire roster. That's apparently the veiled message from Waddell
 

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