Part XV: Phoenix - the battle of evermore (UPD #443ff 14-Dec agenda/lease links)

[AllByDesign]

She could put it in the next "Fact Sheet" that justifies the lease deal.

I'm also getting her to do my income taxes this year. Her and Beasley will get me one frick of a refund.

 

[Snarky Coyote]

You might want to save your nonsense for a different forum. Using silly divisive language like relocationist adds nothing to the discussion. There is a fan section for the Coyotes here.

Seriously? there are many people on this board that do nothing nother than dump on the Phoenix fans, team, every chance they get and now 2 years in you are worrying about being divisive?

please, relocationist is at least as legitimate as all of the southern hockey market crap that has been posted. And here in glendale that is sure viewed as a legitimate term. I have been a STH of this team since the end of the first year they were here and although it has been a real rough time I am glad we are fighting for and keeping our team. Everyone here but for a few said Ballsille would prevail, said here no way in hell would anyone want to buy this team, said that we were going to ice an AHL roster, that we didnt deserve a team, that no one cares, ext ect ect. And im sorry that no one fought this hard or was as creative finacially in Winnepeg or Quebec or that the Leafs wont let another franchise in the GTA but thats not my issue.

Have a good night, need to set my DVR for the road trip

 

[peter sullivan]

Because relocation in general makes a league look amateur and unstable?

er...the NFL has moved 4 franchises since 1988, including the team that plays in the very city with fans throwing around the word 'relocationist' as if it were a synonym for 'terrorist'.

the NBA has moved 4 franchises since 2000.

are these leagues 'amateur and unstable'?

i might suggest that the definition of those two words can be found in the franchise that is owned by the league for two years and now after a third owner has stepped up at the 11th hour they are saved by a government willing to slip $225m of public funds into his pocket, in what has to be the most lucrative public bailout of any sport franchise in north america.

the reputation of the league is hurt way more by the constant debate of what kind of artificial mechanism will in lieu of a sustainable market, create enough artificial revenue to make the franchise attractive enough for a buyer.

nevermind the endless ridicule and mocking from sportscasters every time a coyotes game is televised or a highlight package is shown and the camera pans across an arena with 10 000 empty seats.

if i were a coyote fan, i would be sheepishly happy....i would not gloat.

 

[crazycanuck900]

No one fought for the Jets......? Get your facts straight, only difference is Gary Buttman made his bed and now he has to live in it! Sunbelt teams were and are a wash, after 15 years the Coyotes should have a good fan base by now! Thats the fact , when the Canadian dollar took a dive Winnipeg and Manitoba did the right thing, not like Glendale who gave the farm for a sport that no one cares about!

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

I don't buy that at all. I was hoping for some insight, not the same ol' rhetoric.

Relocating makes them look amateur and unstable but that nonsense from CoG and some nobody owner doesn't?

Why ask the question if you already have an answer formulated? That contributes nothing to the conversation.

 

[pucka lucka]

Why ask the question if you already have an answer formulated? That contributes nothing to the conversation.

I don't have one. You don't either. I was curious if someone could offer an angle I am not seeing.

Mod: deleted.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

er...the NFL has moved 4 franchises since 1988, including the team that plays in the very city with fans throwing around the word 'relocationist' as if it were a synonym for 'terrorist'.

the NBA has moved 4 franchises since 2000.

are these leagues 'amateur and unstable'?

i might suggest that the definition of those two words can be found in the franchise that is owned by the league for two years and now after a third owner has stepped up at the 11th hour they are saved by a government willing to slip $225m of public funds into his pocket, in what has to be the most lucrative public bailout of any sport franchise in north america.

the reputation of the league is hurt way more by the constant debate of what kind of artificial mechanism will in lieu of a sustainable market, create enough artificial revenue to make the franchise attractive enough for a buyer.

nevermind the endless ridicule and mocking from sportscasters every time a coyotes game is televised or a highlight package is shown and the camera pans across an arena with 10 000 empty seats.

if i were a coyote fan, i would be sheepishly happy....i would not gloat.

Words were bad. That's what heppens when you try to post and study for exams at the same time.

But are you going to try to argue against the idea that relocation does not look bad on the league? That is the point I am trying to get across.

The rest of your post just seems like bitterness that after 2 years of debate, 2 years of exclaiming that hockey has no point being there, you are going to be proven wrong.

 

[pucka lucka]

Words were bad. That's what heppens when you try to post and study for exams at the same time.

But are you going to try to argue against the idea that relocation does not look bad on the league? That is the point I am trying to get across.

The rest of your post just seems like bitterness that after 2 years of debate, 2 years of exclaiming that hockey has no point being there, you are going to be proven wrong.

Relocation is part of the business. How does ditching a poor market equate to overall instability? I would think the opposite is true.

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

I don't have one. You don't either. I was curious if someone could offer an angle I am not seeing.

If you don't have an angle, then why insult the one that I offered? You don't have to agree with it, by any means, but to completely brush it off as "the same ol' rhetoric" is silly.

Relocation is part of the business. How does ditching a poor market equate to overall instability? I would think the opposite is true.

So relocating the Jets and the Nordiques was "good" for the league and its reputation?

 

[peter sullivan]

But are you going to try to argue against the idea that relocation does not look bad on the league? That is the point I am trying to get across.

The rest of your post just seems like bitterness that after 2 years of debate, 2 years of exclaiming that hockey has no point being there, you are going to be proven wrong.

my point is that relocation happens in all leagues....it doesnt affect how anyone percieves other leagues why is hockey any different......empty buildings, government bailouts and the league owning franchises makes the league look bad....not relocation

just because a government decided to give an owner $225m of public funding to own a team in their city, doesnt prove that it belongs there...i will be proven wrong when the coyote fans fill their barn, pay NHL prices for tickets and the team stops hemmoraging tens of millions of dollars year after year.

im not bitter at all....just stating the realities.

 

[leafs4cup]

I just watched 60 mins, they had a story on Jerry Jones and chronicled how he purchased the Cowboys. When he first bought the team for 150 million, Texas was in a steep recession and the team was losing a boat load of money (something like a million a week or month not sure what they said). At any rate the team is now worth north of 1.5 Billion. Jones said at the time everyone thought he was crazy. No one really knows how this will turn out for Hulsizer but I am sure it will be an interesting ride!

You cannot compare NFL football in the US to NHL in the US specifically in this market.Just no comparison at all!

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

^just because a government decided to give an owner $225m of public funding to own a team in their city, doesnt prove that it belongs there...

my point is that relocation happens in all leagues....it doesnt affect how anyone percieves other leagues why is hockey any different......empty buildings, government bailouts and the league owning franchises makes the league look bad.

im not bitter at all....just stating the realities.

Agree to disagree then. Though I do think that this entire fiasco has made the NHL look bad (although not necessarily in how they handled it).

 

[pucka lucka]

If you don't have an angle, then why insult the one that I offered? You don't have to agree with it, by any means, but to completely brush it off as "the same ol' rhetoric" is silly.

It is the same ol' rhetoric. Why would a market with the lowest attendance and lowest TV audiences have an impact on some mythical lucrative TV deal? I believe there isn't an NFL team in LA.

I am not sure how to say this more politely.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

So relocating the Jets and the Nordiques was "good" for the league and its reputation?

in the scheme of the states for getting the magical TV deal, then yes

also in the case of WPG i think the right thing was to move the team, but circumstances have changed, I dont think the right thing was to just throw hockey into arizona without any real minor leuge presence. The 90's had the crappy dollar and rising salaries

in that nhl winnipeg was not viable.

 

[pucka lucka]

So relocating the Jets and the Nordiques was "good" for the league and its reputation?

At the time it looked great. Things have changed drastically since then. I am not sure why you would think that moving a franchise is never the best action.

 

[leafs4cup]

er...the NFL has moved 4 franchises since 1988, including the team that plays in the very city with fans throwing around the word 'relocationist' as if it were a synonym for 'terrorist'.

the NBA has moved 4 franchises since 2000.

are these leagues 'amateur and unstable'?

i might suggest that the definition of those two words can be found in the franchise that is owned by the league for two years and now after a third owner has stepped up at the 11th hour they are saved by a government willing to slip $225m of public funds into his pocket, in what has to be the most lucrative public bailout of any sport franchise in north america.

the reputation of the league is hurt way more by the constant debate of what kind of artificial mechanism will in lieu of a sustainable market, create enough artificial revenue to make the franchise attractive enough for a buyer.

nevermind the endless ridicule and mocking from sportscasters every time a coyotes game is televised or a highlight package is shown and the camera pans across an arena with 10 000 empty seats.

if i were a coyote fan, i would be sheepishly happy....i would not gloat.

you are 100% correct.

 

[Faltorvo]

Wait a minute , If the COG handed over the parking rights to the Management firm from the get go and those parking rights are obviously worth $100 million bucks, then was that not a gift to begin with?

But of course those parking rights must be worth much much more then $100 million since those bonds will need serious debt servicing no?

How are they able to give a right away for nothing and then purchase that right back for $100 million bucks?

And i ask again, why did no one else figure out that parking for yotes games was worth a small fortune?

 

[Whileee]

I'm also getting her to do my income taxes this year. Her and Beasley will get me one frick of a refund.

No way! I'm getting Hulsizer to do my taxes.

Our approach is to have the government provide us with a huge refund this year as a way of securing their rights to my future income tax payments. I am planning to become a hedge fund manager in the future and thereby get a HUGE increase in my future income, so I am sure that the government will see that the huge refund that they provide to me up front this year is well worthwhile in the long run.

 

[Veinless]

And i ask again, why did no one else figure out that parking for yotes games was worth a small fortune?

The NHL may want to consider increasing the price of the Coyotes to $240M or so to reflect the valuable parking rights. I am surprised that the value of this significant revenue source was not mentioned during the bankruptcy trials.

 

[Faltorvo]

Well here is my take on the parking issue, there is little to no true value or real revenue stream there.

If there was it would have been tapped by now.

Like i stated earlier maybe they fear driving away fans or maybe there will be to many free parking spots near by , who knows , but no one is going to convince me that this little mystery revenue stream was just over looked.

As for the bond issue , if the collection of parking funds and naming rights fall short of the needed amount to just even service the debt on the bond , then it's disingenuous to state that no tax payer money is in play here.

Frankly yotes fans, i would not start the parade just yet. I just don't see how the GWI does not get involved and i really don't see this passing the legal sniff test.

 

[leafs4cup]

The NHL may want to consider increasing the price of the Coyotes to $240M or so to reflect the valuable parking rights. I am surprised that the value of this significant revenue source was not mentioned during the bankruptcy trials.

Why didn,t Moyes realize this untapped parking potential.

 

[crazycanuck900]

Words were bad. That's what heppens when you try to post and study for exams at the same time.

But are you going to try to argue against the idea that relocation does not look bad on the league? That is the point I am trying to get across.

The rest of your post just seems like bitterness that after 2 years of debate, 2 years of exclaiming that hockey has no point being there, you are going to be proven wrong.

How is the fiasco in Glendale gonna prove anyone wrong? The whole deal of how and why there going to keep the coyotes in Glendale is joke, Its not even about hockey, its all about Glendale poor decision from day one to have a NHL team, you think about it, all the news is about how the COG has no choice but to spend millions on the team, the parking etc, what about the fans of the Coyotes? This whole thing stinks when you have other cities who want a NHL team,not for the money but for the game of top level hockey. Where i am from, hockey is a part of life from the day your born till the day you die. And if your lucky to keep the team you should be honored that your children will be a part of what Gary Bettman took away from ours!

 

[pucka lucka]

How is the fiasco in Glendale gonna prove anyone wrong? The whole deal of how and why there going to keep the coyotes in Glendale is joke, Its not even about hockey, its all about Glendale poor decision from day one to have a NHL team, you think about it, all the news is about how the COG has no choice but to spend millions on the team, the parking etc, what about the fans of the Coyotes? This whole thing stinks when you have other cities who want a NHL team,not for the money but for the game of top level hockey. Where i am from, hockey is a part of life from the day your born till the day you die. And if your lucky to keep the team you should be honored that your children will be a part of what Gary Bettman took away from ours!

Just so I am fair and balanced, like Fox news, this doesn't really help the discussion. It's just business.

 

[Niagara67]

The NHL may want to consider increasing the price of the Coyotes to $240M or so to reflect the valuable parking rights. I am surprised that the value of this significant revenue source was not mentioned during the bankruptcy trials.

Weird, weird, and more weird. I never realized that the biggest percentage of the value of a pro sports franchise is the parking spaces at the arena as opposed to the actual team. Shows what I know about this mysterious thing they call business. Maybe McDonald's makes most of their money off those plastic lids they put on the drinks rather than the hamburgers?

If a $100,000,000 payment for parking spaces was proposed or even hinted at in a similar-sized city in my area like Kitchener or Vaughan, the newspapers and radio would go absolutely nuts with criticisms and editorials. The politicians would be heading for the hills.

 

[Niagara67]

So does that mean a 20,000 space parking lot would be worth $400,000,000 ?