Part 1: Dion Phaneuf: Underrated if anything

[Dreakmur]

Pheneuf is both overrated and underrated. Most people seem to fall into one of two camps with Dion - either they think he's a borderline top-10 defesensem or they think he's not even a top pairinf guy. The former overrates him, and the latter underrates him.

He is a very inconsistent player, which is what makes him so tough to rank. At his very best, he is a borderline top-5 defenseman, but that doesn't happen regularly. At his worst, he isn't a top pairing guy, but that doesn't happen regularly either. The "average" of his play seems to fall somewhere in the 20s.

 

[Dreakmur]

As for Dion's offensive abilities, they are tough to guage as well. Guys who play 25+ minutes and get substantial PP time end up scoring more than guys who get less of each.

I have no idea where Phaneuf would fall on this ranking, but if you want a better measure for offensive effectivenss, rank defensemen by ES Point per minute, then equalize their team scoring.

 

[EscapeGoat]

Good article. Any Leaf fan with a clue knows that Dion Phaneuf is vital to this team's success.

 

[ULF_55]

Phaneuf falls into the under and over rated category.

Kind of like most players but as Captain of the Leafs ... a lot more traction in both directions.

I don't think it really impacts how he plays the game, or changes the fortunes of the Leafs. Results are achieved on the ice, everything else is opinion.

 

[pucci2001]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1434353

Just about all of HF disagrees with you. Good luck with that, pal.

Right, Brent Burns is on that list. Its obviously the gospel on defender rankings and totally takes into account being overpaid and the roles the player is SUPPOSED to have on their team.

 

[pucci2001]

Are you crazy? Are you really saying that he doesn't do enough in the community? You seriously need to educate yourself on the charity work Dion does because this statement is UNBELIEVABLY ignorant. Please, please stay in school. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

Please, educate me.

 

[ULF_55]

Right, Brent Burns is on that list. Its obviously the gospel on defender rankings and totally takes into account being overpaid and the roles the player is SUPPOSED to have on their team.

I'm betting a lot of voters might change their opinion of Voynov today.

 

[buntek]

I think part of the problem is that he's not the easiest personality to like - he's a bit hard to warm up to...and b/c of that, it's easy to zone in on the negatives about him as a player...to a degree, Kessel experiences the same problem (although, Kessel is much better at his position than Phaneuf is at his own).

The thing about Phaneuf is that whether or not he is, in some abstract sense, a #1D, he's undeniably the Leafs #1D and they don't have anyone available who would readily replace him - and someone like Letang, in the absence of Phaneuf, would make the Leafs' hole at D bigger, not smaller.



I just want to point out that Hammer and Oduya aren't on the same level - Hammer's much better. I agree that Hammer's not as good as Phaneuf - but he also has an AAV of $3m less. However, in a more general sense - if you're talking about as a replacement then, no - Hammer certainly wouldn't be able to replace Phaneuf. Value for contract is a completely different question - but the question doesn't really matter if there's no one who can replace Phaneuf.

This.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

As for Dion's offensive abilities, they are tough to guage as well. Guys who play 25+ minutes and get substantial PP time end up scoring more than guys who get less of each.

I have no idea where Phaneuf would fall on this ranking, but if you want a better measure for offensive effectivenss, rank defensemen by ES Point per minute, then equalize their team scoring.

He produces around 20 points in even-strength while in a shut down role. You're usually not going to see much production with high defensive zone starts and against top competition. Most traditional shut down pairing are relied upon would produce a lot less than Phaneuf as well. His offensive production in the ES is resembling defenceman like Subban who are a lot more sheltered.

His PP TOI is high, because he is extremely productive. If we want to see Gardiner, Gunnarsson, etc to receive more time, they'll need to IMPROVE their performance. For instance, if we acquired Letang, I am certain that he'd be awarded more PP TOI if they played on the same side.

In addition, if we can improve puck support from our forwards, I could see Phaneuf offensive production increasing. He does a pretty great job shutting down top lines, but our forward core is terrible at maintaining possession. The only line that is consistently possession positive and actually puts it into the net is the first line. If we want to minimize our GA, we're going to require our team to play defence.

 

[pucci2001]

Hedman? Bogosian? Gardiner? Voynov? You can't be serious. I refuse to believe you can know enough about hockey to list off all those names AND be clueless enough to think they are better than Phaneuf.

Better value and/or upside. Except maybe Bogosian but I like his game better than Dion's.

Dion has peaked, I don't ever see him getting better defensively, he is caught flat footed when people blow by him at the blue line too frequently, he lost his mean streak he had in Calgary. All he does is try and catch people in the neutral zone WHICH I LOVE but he needs to be mean around his net, stop getting pushed around by almost EVERY player in the league. He tries to be a badass running around after Marchand the past season and Marchand literally just chips it by and avoids the hit and its a 2 on 1 or 3 on 1 EVERYTIME, I hate Marchand too but not enough to hang my partner and goalie out to dry.

Last thing is where is his personality on the bench during a game? Show some character, I hate almost every Boston Bruin but at least you can see who the leaders are on their team, Lupul, Kadri, Kessel a couple others you only see getting pumped up on the bench when we are down. He needs to be leading the charge in games where it is close or we are behind. I watched literally every leaf game this season and he just doesn't strike me as a person that should lead a young team, when is the last time we saw Dion talking to his partners during the game on the ice or on the bench or with the forwards like Chara did during our series with them. His hockey IQ is just not what it needs to be to be the leader of a team. Captains are supposed to be visible leaders not just guys that go out and play hockey at an above average level. 6.5million, cmon he is on his tyler myers contract still because calgary didnt give him a bridge, he was supposed to amount to more than this otherwise they wouldnt have traded him for our scraps. Real captains are loved by fans, almost unanimously, people know that they leave it all on the ice every single game. Look at Toews, Dustin Brown, Clark, Sundin, Zetterberg, Iginla, Callahan, Doan, Ladd. Captains dont always have to be the best players but they have to do the small things right consistently, Dion doesn't.

 

[Dreakmur]

Same old predictable response...

So, you're not going do those calculations?

 

[pucci2001]

I'm betting a lot of voters might change their opinion of Voynov today.

No way, he is overpaid, overrated.

 

[ULF_55]

No way, he is overpaid, overrated.

If you get Clowe you don't need to worry so much about a ready top 6 winger.

How about Kyle Clifford and Vyacheslav Voynov?

No idea, but that would be up to Burke's scouts to identify some good young players.

I'm still working the rebuild scenario, not the compete now scenario ...

Too bad my fantasy trade didn't happen. Buy low.

 

[The Apologist]

As for Dion's offensive abilities, they are tough to guage as well. Guys who play 25+ minutes and get substantial PP time end up scoring more than guys who get less of each.

I have no idea where Phaneuf would fall on this ranking, but if you want a better measure for offensive effectivenss, rank defensemen by ES Point per minute, then equalize their team scoring.

I agree. I take this into account when people try to tell me that Ovechkin is better offensively than people like MacArthur too. If you take out the PP time and extra minutes played, they are probably a whole lot closer offensively.

 

[darrylsittler27]

He is neither..

Under nor over valued. He played well last year but he is just a top2 dman who needs help back there.The arguement made with him is that to get him help will cost $$$.Can we pay him $6.5M and get him help or do we part ways and seek an upgrade? I prefer he takes a cut to $5.5M and lets us sign another top2 guy or we wont be getting any cup anyway.This team is closer than many think.

 

[ALine]

Under nor over valued. He played well last year but he is just a top2 dman who needs help back there.The arguement made with him is that to get him help will cost $$$.Can we pay him $6.5M and get him help or do we part ways and seek an upgrade? I prefer he takes a cut to $5.5M and lets us sign another top2 guy or we wont be getting any cup anyway.This team is closer than many think.

Ya, let's just sign some one better. And who would be available to sign that's better?
Who, of the half or so dozen players that would actually improve upon phaneufs impact, should we target and how?

We were lucky to get Phaneuf for the price we did. At the time, it could sort of be justified as an even trade for Calgary, at the time, with the reported locker room issues and all. But now it can be seen as nothing as a total fleecing. We would be lucky to get a similar player, not to mention, better player, without going total tank mode. And I think we all agree, we are past that.

 

[Damisoph]

I've learned over the years not to trust what the majority of Leafs Nation says about our dmen. This is the same fanbase that booed Larry Murphy out of town so he could play an integral role in the Wings winning the Cup that year.

The only thing I would change about Dion is cutting his minutes.

 

[mapleleaf979]

As usual, someone using stats to prove an invalid point. There's so much to his game that he doesn't do well, where there are no stats attributed to it, that the truly elite players in the league actually do well. It's a shame there are so many that lack objectivity.

He's completely overrated by the majority of people. People talk about him as if he's deserving of 25 minutes a game in the olympics. there's a lot of grey area in hockey, and stats can be deceiving. on a team that lacks established top tiered talent on the blue line. he's option 1 of 1... There's your stats.

I remember when McCabe was one of "the top 10 dmen in the league"

/end thread

Excellent post.

Remember "How good" Kaberle was in Toronto? Couldnt even stick in the Top 6 for Boston. Carolina over paid for him and moved him to Montreal. Montreal wants to buy him out. Leaf fans listen to the commentators of the game and believe everything they hear. Some Leaf fans are still convinced that Komasarek is a punishing Dman who could help the team. I just dont get it, how they believe this. It seems like an attempt at trolling, but some believe it.

Is there a stat to show Phaneuf compete level? No. If there was it would speak volumes. How about Phaneuf and his Contradictory appearance and how he doesnt back it up. He trys to "fool" others into thinking he is tough. He is imtimated by the big boys in the NHL, guys his size and bigger, he is terrified. He loves the smaller guys he thinks he can bully. I.e. Brayden Schenn with concussion issues and Brad Marchand.

When u suggest that he is option 1 of 1 on a weak blue line, your BANG ON.

 

[Holymakinaw]

I've learned over the years not to trust what the majority of Leafs Nation says about our dmen. This is the same fanbase that booed Larry Murphy out of town so he could play an integral role in the Wings winning the Cup that year.

The only thing I would change about Dion is cutting his minutes.

It's true. Leaf fans are typically Morons when it comes to judging their own. They're not to be trusted!

The truth about Phaneuf is.....he's a very good D-Man. He has flaws, for sure. He's not a top-10 D-man in the NHL. But he's somewhere in between what the haters and the lovers say.

He sure ain't worth 6.5 million a year. Probably shouldn't have the "C" either. But he DOES eat up 25 hard minutes a night, and very few other D-Men in the league can score more consistently than him. With the exception of a couple of "off" years, Dion has been a top-15 or better scorer in 6 of the 8 years he's been in the league. That's very good.

Not great.

But very good.

 

[Kyle Doobas*]

Remember "How good" Kaberle was in Toronto?

Everyone and their dog knew Kaberle had been in decline for a couple of seasons leading up to the trade, but he was absolutely one of the best puck-moving defensemen in the NHL in his prime.

 

[KULEMINakajesus]

It's true. Leaf fans are typically Morons when it comes to judging their own. They're not to be trusted!

The truth about Phaneuf is.....he's a very good D-Man. He has flaws, for sure. He's not a top-10 D-man in the NHL. But he's somewhere in between what the haters and the lovers say.

He sure ain't worth 6.5 million a year. Probably shouldn't have the "C" either. But he DOES eat up 25 hard minutes a night, and very few other D-Men in the league can score more consistently than him. With the exception of a couple of "off" years, Dion has been a top-15 or better scorer in 6 of the 8 years he's been in the league. That's very good.

Not great.

But very good.

the bolded part can't be stressed enough. To win the cup you need to have great cap management. If you save even something as low as 500k which most posters on here say is nothing, results in getting a 6 million player instead of 3...

Dion won't be looking for a paycut. He's going to be looking for a long term deal with a high cap hit. Right now of course he's our number 1 d. But with our strong cabinet of D prospects I don't see him as a #1 2-3 years down the road. And if he isn't a number 1 at that point that contract will be a massive burden.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Wirst player on the team by far. Frabson, Kulemen, and Gardner are better by far.

 

[hockeyfanz*]

It's true. Leaf fans are typically Morons when it comes to judging their own. They're not to be trusted!

The truth about Phaneuf is.....he's a very good D-Man. He has flaws, for sure. He's not a top-10 D-man in the NHL. But he's somewhere in between what the haters and the lovers say.

He sure ain't worth 6.5 million a year. Probably shouldn't have the "C" either. But he DOES eat up 25 hard minutes a night, and very few other D-Men in the league can score more consistently than him. With the exception of a couple of "off" years, Dion has been a top-15 or better scorer in 6 of the 8 years he's been in the league. That's very good.

Not great.

But very good.

I like your post best

 

[Griffski]

I'll be honest, I'm not Phaneufs biggest fan, He often appears lazy in his own end and his hockey I.Q (specifically his defensive I.Q) seems to be pretty low.

With that being said, Phaneuf is probably the MVP on the Leafs, If Phaneuf gets injured we literally have no one on the roster who can expect to replace the minutes he logs.

I agree, he is slow with a low hockey I.Q.

But I never understood this "No one can replace his minutes." The only aspect of his minutes I see needing replacement is the PK. Can someone explain this more to me? I feel like it's a mostly baseless argument.

 

[dimi78]

It would help if he shortens his shift lengths. Part of that however is from the poor play from the forwards in getting the puck out.

This is a team issue of:

(A) not being a strong cycle team that causes the team from being able to make clean line changes especially on D which is the key factor of getting hemmed in due to tired legs.


People crap on Phaneuf when the shifts are extended due to tired legs when it's all 5 guys the group on the ice who are struggling yet how many people have put any focus on the rest of the team especially Gunnarson during these times on the ice? Phaneuf gets very little help from Gunnarson during these times cause he rarely if at all pin & sticks his man on the wall or flat out knocks guys down on the ice that clears ice to move the puck out and start the line change...Everything is Phaneuf's fault that's all we here. Anybody notice that it's Gunnarson's side of the ice teams focus the cycle on when the pairing is on the ice? Yet it's Phaneuf that gets labeled overrated.

(B) The inability of James Reimer to freeze pucks by either sucking the puck into his body or just CATCH THE DAMN PUCK is a major issue (EXPOSED IN THE PLAYOFFS) that leads to extended shifts and hurts the team defense cause they can't get off the ice.... Yet once again it's all Phaneuf's fault. THIS IS WHY NONIS BROUGHT IN BERNIER for those who still haven't figured it out.

Phaneuf has been treated the same way Sundin has from both the fans and media with this perception that he's good but not good enough. Just like Sundin the haters of Phaneuf don't know what they have until he's gone.

How's that search for #1 center going?