Part 1: Dion Phaneuf: Underrated if anything

[The_Chosen_One]

The problem with Dion is just as his scouting report said. He is both amazing and terrible. When he is on he is on, when off he is off. He can play 24 mins of outstanding hockey the go to crap for the next 2 and lose a game for you.

He honestly should be a 20min player, the extra he doesn't move his feet for.

Most scouting reports pointed out that he isn't really a prototypical puck moving defenceman even though he can produce good numbers offensively. The problem is that he either needs a shut down guy as good as him ( very rare) or something that can help move the puck out of the zone.

Leaf fans - "Phaneuf is overrated!!"

Same Leaf fans "Phaneuf has enough value so you can trade for Letang"

I could see Penguins taking Phaneuf for Letang. Dion will have a successful career over there, while we're out of the playoffs. Even if Bernier goes into beast mode, we'll just get destroyed in the playoffs.

The fact is our ability to shut down the top lines is largely due to Phaneuf. Our forward core - including Grabovski ( despite being largely depended on) - as a whole cannot play defence. We really overrate our forwards when it was our back end that often kept us alive.

Our performance in the transition zone was awful, and it wasn't that usual seeing our D core being overworked. If we had the same level of puck support from the forward as we saw in contending teams, Phaneuf would have looked a lot better.

 

[DD03]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/spor...ost-overrated-nhler-in-si-poll/article620658/

Asked 161 players... Is that even a third of the league?

 

[Durrr]

Asked 161 players... Is that even a third of the league?

And who even cares what player other players think is overrated, the fact is out of that already small sample size I bet he got like 20 votes tops.

 

[UsernameWasTaken]

Most scouting reports pointed out that he isn't really a prototypical puck moving defenceman even though he can produce good numbers offensively. The problem is that he either needs a shut down guy as good as him ( very rare) or something that can help move the puck out of the zone.

I could see Penguins taking Phaneuf for Letang. Dion will have a successful career over there, while we're out of the playoffs. Even if Bernier goes into beast mode, we'll just get destroyed in the playoffs.

The fact is our ability to shut down the top lines is largely due to Phaneuf. Our forward core - including Grabovski ( despite being largely depended on) - as a whole cannot play defence. We really overrate our forwards when it was our back end that often kept us alive.

Our performance in the transition zone was awful, and it wasn't that usual seeing our D core being overworked. If we had the same level of puck support from the forward as we saw in contending teams, Phaneuf would have looked a lot better.

also, the leafs top D prospects/potentials (ie gardiner) are puck moving. there's no one in the system who will replace what Phaneuf currently provides. re Letang - the playoffs proved what a joke the fact he was a Norris finalist was. If you're a team like Ottawa, and you don't have fantastic scoring, then having a d-man who's D is weak but provides offense (i.e Karlsson) is great - Letang is the same (although obv. Pens have a ton of scoring) - he's great if you want an offensive contribution from the backend - but let's not pretend his defense is all that great.

imo, a reason Phaneuf gets criticized and deemed 'overrated' is b/c he's not as good as other #1 d-men on a bunch of teams - but how is it his fault that the Leafs d is weak? The Leafs own problems w/ defence doesn't make Phaneuf 'overrated'.

 

[Duffman955]

Very few defensemen in the NHL I would take over Dion.

 

[WeWantACup]

Lets try 21 min max and he gets to play with NHL partners.

 

[ALine]

Keep him for anything under $6 mill cap hit. Anything over that # is an over-payment.

If you're a GM and you offer Dion less than 6 per year or let him walk, you're a terrible GM.

Phaneuf is under rated around here. People who think we could plug letang in for Phaneuf are delusional and have no idea about either player. Or anyone that wants that hole filled for less than 6 mill per for that matter.

Simply put, the only way to get a guy better than Phaneuf is to trade Kessel + for one of the ~half dozen or so defensemen than are better. What we need to focus on is support, which, at this point, should just be sitting and waiting for the Gardner and Rielly to take their next respective steps in their careers.

 

[Penalty Kill Icing*]

Too bad that not only Hf, but even other GMs don't really fancy him.

Looks like NHL GMs are dumb as well and hate this Leafs hero.

 

[pucci2001]

Well just off the top of my head I would rather any of the following over Dion: Thats not even taking inconsideration the fact i feel dion is quite overpaid and he is the captain of the team but does NOTHING to even try and be a role model. Lupul was on CP24, its Lupes troops, schenn even does more PR work that Dion. That isnt even talking about how he disappears on the ice when someone stands up to him or runs over the goalie. Pay Dion 5.x and take away the C limit him to 20 minutes max and I would LOVE to have Dion for the rest of his career but at 6.5+ and as a pseudo-captain no thanks.
Suter
Weber
Letang(even him)
Keith
Seabrooke
Chara
Doughty
Karlsson
Subban
Gardiner
Franson(price, developing)
Hedman
Voynov
Kronwall
Yandle
JBo

Edit: Pietrangelo, McDonagh, Staal, MDZ, Bogosian....the list goes on. He is NOT top 25, so all the #1 stuff can take a hike in my books.

 

[DD03]

Well just off the top of my head I would rather any of the following over Dion: Thats not even taking inconsideration the fact i feel dion is quite overpaid and he is the captain of the team but does NOTHING to even try and be a role model. Lupul was on CP24, its Lupes troops, schenn even does more PR work that Dion. That isnt even talking about how he disappears on the ice when someone stands up to him or runs over the goalie. Pay Dion 5.x and take away the C limit him to 20 minutes max and I would LOVE to have Dion for the rest of his career but at 6.5+ and as a pseudo-captain no thanks.
Suter
Weber
Letang(even him)
Keith
Seabrooke
Chara
Doughty
Karlsson
Subban
Gardiner
Franson(price, developing)
Hedman
Voynov
Kronwall
Yandle
JBo

Edit: Pietrangelo, McDonagh, Staal, MDZ, Bogosian....the list goes on. He is NOT top 25, so all the #1 stuff can take a hike in my books.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1434353

Just about all of HF disagrees with you. Good luck with that, pal.

 

[ALine]

Well just off the top of my head I would rather any of the following over Dion: Thats not even taking inconsideration the fact i feel dion is quite overpaid and he is the captain of the team but does NOTHING to even try and be a role model. Lupul was on CP24, its Lupes troops, schenn even does more PR work that Dion. That isnt even talking about how he disappears on the ice when someone stands up to him or runs over the goalie. Pay Dion 5.x and take away the C limit him to 20 minutes max and I would LOVE to have Dion for the rest of his career but at 6.5+ and as a pseudo-captain no thanks.
Suter
Weber
Letang(even him)
Keith
Seabrooke
Chara
Doughty
Karlsson
Subban
Gardiner
Franson(price, developing)
Hedman
Voynov
Kronwall
Yandle
JBo

Edit: Pietrangelo, McDonagh, Staal, MDZ, Bogosian....the list goes on. He is NOT top 25, so all the #1 stuff can take a hike in my books.

Suter, Weber, Chara, Doughty, Pietrangelo(considering age). Anyone else makes us a markedly worse team.

I find it funny reading the list of players you prefer, a lot of multiples from the same team. Do you understand that, even as good as one player is, hockey is a team sport. Players need support. You prefer all of Staal, mcdonaugh, and MDZ over phaneuf, but do you realize the all have each other to play with plus a solid Girardi, while Phaneuf has AHL defensemen to play with him a lot of the time here in Toronto. You list Voynov, but also doughty. They don't even play on the same pairing. Keith and Seabrooke are both great, but the also cover up for a lot of each others mistakes, something phaneuf doesn't have the luxury of. You also list gardiner and franson, two players who were able to be hhighly sheltered with pp time, offensive zone starts and lesser quality competition, because we have phanauf to do all the heavy lifting

 

[BIitz]

Well just off the top of my head I would rather any of the following over Dion: Thats not even taking inconsideration the fact i feel dion is quite overpaid and he is the captain of the team but does NOTHING to even try and be a role model. Lupul was on CP24, its Lupes troops, schenn even does more PR work that Dion. That isnt even talking about how he disappears on the ice when someone stands up to him or runs over the goalie. Pay Dion 5.x and take away the C limit him to 20 minutes max and I would LOVE to have Dion for the rest of his career but at 6.5+ and as a pseudo-captain no thanks.
Suter
Weber
Letang(even him)
Keith
Seabrooke
Chara
Doughty
Karlsson
Subban
Gardiner
Franson(price, developing)
Hedman
Voynov
Kronwall
Yandle
JBo

Edit: Pietrangelo, McDonagh, Staal, MDZ, Bogosian....the list goes on. He is NOT top 25, so all the #1 stuff can take a hike in my books.

Okay let me get this straight, you would rather have Marc Staal, who is comparable defensively without being half as good offensively, MDZ who is a good young D but no where close to being a top defensemen, Slava Voynov who gets sheltered minutes on one of the best D corps, and Cody freaking Franson over Dion Phaneuf?

I'm not Phaneuf fan, but come on. This guy get's way too much flake just because he is the captain. Almost all of those guys on the list are debateable.

 

[ConnorTO]

phaneuf is good

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Okay let me get this straight, you would rather have Marc Staal, who is comparable defensively without being half as good offensively, MDZ who is a good young D but no where close to being a top defensemen, Slava Voynov who gets sheltered minutes on one of the best D corps, and Cody freaking Franson over Dion Phaneuf?

I'm not Phaneuf fan, but come on. This guy get's way too much flake just because he is the captain. Almost all of those guys on the list are debateable.

Letang, Subban, and the other offensive defenceman would be assassinated if they were on the Leafs. I would not be expecting any of these defenceman to be taking on key shut down duties. To use these kind of defenceman in that manner is just idiotic coaching. It'd be like trying to turn Phil Kessel into a shut down forward. It's just stupid.

I'm certain our opponents would love that, though. What's ironic is that most contending teams tend to have multiple shut down capable Ds on their team. If Ference or Scuderi were solely used against top lines, they would be drastically worse than Phaneuf. I remembered François Beauchemin struggling and now he's successful in Anaheim.

 

[TheLeastOfTheBunch]

Phaneuf had a very good regular season, struggled a bit in the playoffs but I think he would flourish a lot more if he had a legit #2 type to play with.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Suter, Weber, Chara, Doughty, Pietrangelo(considering age). Anyone else makes us a markedly worse team.

I find it funny reading the list of players you prefer, a lot of multiples from the same team. Do you understand that, even as good as one player is, hockey is a team sport. Players need support. You prefer all of Staal, mcdonaugh, and MDZ over phaneuf, but do you realize the all have each other to play with plus a solid Girardi, while Phaneuf has AHL defensemen to play with him a lot of the time here in Toronto. You list Voynov, but also doughty. They don't even play on the same pairing. Keith and Seabrooke are both great, but the also cover up for a lot of each others mistakes, something phaneuf doesn't have the luxury of. You also list gardiner and franson, two players who were able to be hhighly sheltered with pp time, offensive zone starts and lesser quality competition, because we have phanauf to do all the heavy lifting

Keith and Seabrook were sheltered and are not involved in shutting down top lines. There is the Oduya - Hjaalmarsson pairing for that. Phaneuf is better than both of them and Seabrook is even questionable as an offensive defenceman.

 

[The Examiner]

Thats not even taking inconsideration the fact i feel dion is quite overpaid and he is the captain of the team but does NOTHING to even try and be a role model. Lupul was on CP24, its Lupes troops, schenn even does more PR work that Dion.

Are you crazy? Are you really saying that he doesn't do enough in the community? You seriously need to educate yourself on the charity work Dion does because this statement is UNBELIEVABLY ignorant. Please, please stay in school. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Billy6]

If there is one knock on Leaf fans that I agree with it's that we overate our players and with threads like this I have to admit that it's true.

Phaneuf is a good player. You could certainly do a lot worse than him in your top two on defense. But any person that thinks that Phaneuf is underrated is just simply nuts.

Phaneuf is a lot of things but underrated is not one of them. Give these threads a rest. They make Leaf fans look like a bunch of tools.

 

[Leafidelity]

Part of me wants to see him injured for a length of time, just so the haters see how bad our defense is without him. But I know we wouldn't make the playoffs if that happened.

 

[The_Chosen_One]

If there is one knock on Leaf fans that I agree with it's that we overate our players and with threads like this I have to admit that it's true.

Phaneuf is a good player. You could certainly do a lot worse than him in your top two on defense. But any person that thinks that Phaneuf is underrated is just simply nuts.

Phaneuf is a lot of things but underrated is not one of them. Give these threads a rest. They make Leaf fans look like a bunch of tools.

Phaneuf is severely underrated. Most GMs would love to acquire him as a number 1.

The player we tend to overrate and most fans outside the Leafs would agree:

1. Carl Gunnarsson: He supposedly carries Phaneuf and yet looked mediocre without Phaneuf on a more sheltered pairing. Sort of like Lidstrom on the Coffey - Lidstrom pairing. After all, both are Swedish....

2. Jay McClement: Our very own John Madden. No wonder we had Grabovski in a shut down role and even he was unable to produce at a 50-point pace like Steen. Maybe we should have not traded Steen...

3. Jake Gardiner: Sure-bet Niedermayer.

4. Joffrey Lupul: John Leclair-equivalent?

5. Nikolai Kulemin: Red Kelly? He's both a centre and defenceman when up against top lines.

These are the players you'd see some Leafs fans on the main boards - who I don't want to associate with - including for proposals for top liners. The fact is, the only way we can acquire a top centre or defenceman is by dealing Kessel or Phaneuf. That's it, because they clearly play at a higher level.

Get real people.

 

[KuleminFan41]

He's a top 10-15 defenseman who is constantly derided as being overrated.... which makes him absurdly underrated.

There are few other players who could handle such tough minutes and still be in the top ten for scoring amongst defensemen, let alone throw some of the biggest hits of any defenseman, fight, be used extensively in all situations and wear the 'C' for the most popular team in the league.... all while paired with the likes of Korbinian Holzer and Mike Kostka.

And yet the people who hate him don't see that and call it irrelevant

 

[The_Chosen_One]

Too bad that not only Hf, but even other GMs don't really fancy him.

Looks like NHL GMs are dumb as well and hate this Leafs hero.

If Phaneuf was made available, GMs would definitely be calling Nonis. On the other hand, I don't think we'll be able to acquire a #1C with Gardiner. The difference between the two are drastic, and I don't see that changing.

These comments are seriously ridiculous.

 

[Joey Hoser]

Well just off the top of my head I would rather any of the following over Dion: Thats not even taking inconsideration the fact i feel dion is quite overpaid and he is the captain of the team but does NOTHING to even try and be a role model. Lupul was on CP24, its Lupes troops, schenn even does more PR work that Dion. That isnt even talking about how he disappears on the ice when someone stands up to him or runs over the goalie. Pay Dion 5.x and take away the C limit him to 20 minutes max and I would LOVE to have Dion for the rest of his career but at 6.5+ and as a pseudo-captain no thanks.
Suter
Weber
Letang(even him)
Keith
Seabrooke
Chara
Doughty
Karlsson
Subban
Gardiner
Franson(price, developing)
Hedman
Voynov
Kronwall
Yandle
JBo

Edit: Pietrangelo, McDonagh, Staal, MDZ, Bogosian....the list goes on. He is NOT top 25, so all the #1 stuff can take a hike in my books.

Hedman? Bogosian? Gardiner? Voynov? You can't be serious. I refuse to believe you can know enough about hockey to list off all those names AND be clueless enough to think they are better than Phaneuf.

 

[rumman]

I find it very interesting the differences of opinion on Dion's true value, IF he's traded, I'll be fascinated just what his value is? I rate him as a overpaid quality defenceman with 1 year left on his contract, what that's worth, I'm not sure, but some of the offers Leaf fans are demanding are ludicrous, and some of the low ball offers from other team's fans are laughable. Personally I think to the right team, Dion + is worth a true #1 centre, or the parts to acquire said centreman, what the + is, is debatable, but I think with 1 year left on his contract that's fair value, and I think Nonis should do the deal if it presents itself. Dion's a good player, but not worth his current contract, lest what he'll want going forward.

 

[Renegade]

If there is one knock on Leaf fans that I agree with it's that we overate our players and with threads like this I have to admit that it's true.

Phaneuf is a good player. You could certainly do a lot worse than him in your top two on defense. But any person that thinks that Phaneuf is underrated is just simply nuts.

Phaneuf is a lot of things but underrated is not one of them. Give these threads a rest. They make Leaf fans look like a bunch of tools.

People say that because the Leafs have been bad over the past 10 years so everyone come to the conclusion that all our players are bad.

Sure we sometimes over evaluate a little but some of the players we have/had deserve more credit than what other team's fans give them credit for.