P.K. Subban

[LyricalLyricist]

Letang is recovering from a stroke, so he's amazing.

He definitely deserves praise and by all accounts a likeable player as well. I don't think he's the best but I am impressed by his rebound, good for him. If he wins, it would be difficult to be upset considering the stroke.

 

[Lebowski]

And that basically says it all about using advanced stats out of context. Ryan Suter looks pretty terrible there. Even Weber, probably the leading Norris candidate looks mediocre.

Not trying to take a shot at you, as people constantly misuse them. I'll admit, I don't even know how to properly understand/apply them yet, but I haven't really given them much of a chance. I suppose the one positive is that those stats for Subban absolutely match the eye test though, but I wouldn't say that's necessarily the case for all the players you listed.

He's been having a pretty terrible season too...

 

[Smokey Thompson]

And that basically says it all about using advanced stats out of context. Ryan Suter looks pretty terrible there. Even Weber, probably the leading Norris candidate looks mediocre.

Not trying to take a shot at you, as people constantly misuse them. I'll admit, I don't even know how to properly understand/apply them yet, but I haven't really given them much of a chance. I suppose the one positive is that those stats for Subban absolutely match the eye test though, but I wouldn't say that's necessarily the case for all the players you listed.

Not really.. Ryan Suter's been overrated quite a bit because of the fact he plays so many minutes and had an unsustainable +/- stat a couple of seasons ago. He's average in terms of puck moving and creating offence. He shouldn't be mentioned next to players like PK, Doughty, Weber, Letang, etc

As for Webers numbers, he plays a more defensive role than Subban in terms of zone starts and such, which would explain why his possession stats look that much worse than Subban's. But there is some merit. His defensive starts don't justify that big of a gap in their possession numbers. PK leads the league in CF for a defensemen and basically when he's on the ice the other team doesn't have the puck. He's that good. I think he's passed Weber and he should definitely win the Norris over him.

Unfortunately, I still think Weber will get the Norris because of the fact that he hasn't won one yet and no one really watches Nashville enough to see any of the flaws in his game. Just like how the main board still has him way ahead of PK despite just about every stat in the book showing the opposite.

 

[CanadienShark]

He's been having a pretty terrible season too...

He hasn't had a good season, but a "poor" season for him, is still much better than a high end bottom pairing d-man, as those stats would indicate.

Not really.. Ryan Suter's been overrated quite a bit because of the fact he plays so many minutes and had an unsustainable +/- stat a couple of seasons ago. He's average in terms of puck moving and creating offence. He shouldn't be mentioned next to players like PK, Doughty, Weber, Letang, etc

As for Webers numbers, he plays a more defensive role than Subban in terms of zone starts and such, which would explain why his possession stats look that much worse than Subban's. But there is some merit. His defensive starts don't justify that big of a gap in their possession numbers. PK leads the league in CF for a defensemen and basically when he's on the ice the other team doesn't have the puck. He's that good. I think he's passed Weber and he should definitely win the Norris over him.

Unfortunately, I still think Weber will get the Norris because of the fact that he hasn't won one yet and no one really watches Nashville enough to see any of the flaws in his game. Just like how the main board still has him way ahead of PK despite just about every stat in the book showing the opposite.

I know he's overrated, which is why I constantly have him later in my top 10 lists, but he's still an elite d-man. And see above. On PK, he's still my 4th choice, but he's making a case to break into the top 3 sooner rather than later. As of now, I'd take Weber, Giordano and Letang as my finalists. And my original point is that advanced stats are useful tools in certain situations, but simply citing that X player has better possession numbers than Y or whatever other stat doesn't mean X is better than Y. The eye test is far more reliable, I think.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

He hasn't had a good season, but a "poor" season for him, is still much better than a high end bottom pairing d-man, as those stats would indicate.



I know he's overrated, which is why I constantly have him later in my top 10 lists, but he's still an elite d-man. And see above. On PK, he's still my 4th choice, but he's making a case to break into the top 3 sooner rather than later. As of now, I'd take Weber, Giordano and Letang as my finalists. And my original point is that advanced stats are useful tools in certain situations, but simply citing that X player has better possession numbers than Y or whatever other stat doesn't mean X is better than Y. The eye test is far more reliable, I think.

I think you "get it" better than both of those guys.

 

[CanadienShark]

I think you "get it" better than both of those guys.

I have never once used advanced stats, and I think most would agree that I'm an alright judge of hockey. So it just goes to show that you don't need them. That said, I know there are some people on this site who research such stats a crazy amount, and I trust them to correctly apply them.

Something I've learned from my stats and econometrics classes, is that it's incredibly easy to misuse a statistic. Like stupidly easy, unless you REALLY know what you're doing.

 

[BlackStar]

I have never once used advanced stats, and I think most would agree that I'm an alright judge of hockey. So it just goes to show that you don't need them. That said, I know there are some people on this site who research such stats a crazy amount, and I trust them to correctly apply them.

Something I've learned from my stats and econometrics classes, is that it's incredibly easy to misuse a statistic. Like stupidly easy, unless you REALLY know what you're doing.

Advanced stats shouldn't be EVERYTHING. But considering that virtually all NHL fans like to use general stats as evidence to a point (such as, "Ovechkin is the best goal-scorer in the NHL over the past 10 years because of his total goals scored since"), why in the world would people not place greater emphasis on advanced stats?

The eye test is great, but we are kidding ourselves if we think it's greater than statistical evidence. It's harder to be bias to judge a player through mostly advanced stats than it is to judge a player mostly through the eye test

Advanced stats, like all kinds of stats help verify "eye-tests".

 

[Smokey Thompson]

I know he's overrated, which is why I constantly have him later in my top 10 lists, but he's still an elite d-man. And see above. On PK, he's still my 4th choice, but he's making a case to break into the top 3 sooner rather than later. As of now, I'd take Weber, Giordano and Letang as my finalists. And my original point is that advanced stats are useful tools in certain situations, but simply citing that X player has better possession numbers than Y or whatever other stat doesn't mean X is better than Y. The eye test is far more reliable, I think.

To be honest, looking at advanced stats as a whole (i.e. all of the big ones) is similar to the eye test you mention. Take PK for example... he was good during the first half of the season, but he was definitely playing below his standards. And it reflected in his stats. Since 2015, and especially in the month of February, he's been playing out of his mind and anyone who watches the games can see it. Lo and behold, he's back at the top of the league in terms of advanced stats (which really buckle down to simply shot differentials). Similarly, the couple of times I've seen Giordano play, he blew me away. Whenever he'd be on the ice, the Flames would be in possession and would carry the play. Same thing goes for Letang and Doughty, both of whom have incredible possession stats this year.

If I were able to watch every single game of every single team, then I wouldn't need to look at possession stats, as I'd have a good idea of what the top D in the league can offer in terms of possession. Unfortunately, we all have lives outside of hockey (or we'd be analysts and not forum dwellers). Luckily, we can use possession stats to get an idea of how one player compares to another. And when one player completely dominates an other player in just about every stat in the book, you can make the assumption that the former is playing better hockey than the latter... in this case PK vs Weber.

I'll agree that using possession stats exclusively to rate certain players is dumb, especially when you start looking at individual stats out of context. You need to find a balance, or you end up like Berkshire who seemed to think Diaz was a stud.

 

[CanadienShark]

Advanced stats shouldn't be EVERYTHING. But considering that virtually all NHL fans like to use general stats as evidence to a point (such as, "Ovechkin is the best goal-scorer in the NHL over the past 10 years because of his total goals scored since"), why in the world would people not place greater emphasis on advanced stats?

The eye test is great, but we are kidding ourselves if we think it's greater than statistical evidence. It's harder to be bias to judge a player through mostly advanced stats than it is to judge a player mostly through the eye test

Advanced stats, like all kinds of stats help verify "eye-tests".

Well in all fairness, I'm not one to cite ANY stats without context of the "eye test" which albeit impossible to quantify, is the easiest and best measure of judging a player. I shouldn't have simply said advanced stats, as the same logic in my point holds for any stats. And statistical evidence is so prone to error, bias, etc. that you need to have immense knowledge to properly use it.

To be honest, looking at advanced stats as a whole (i.e. all of the big ones) is similar to the eye test you mention. Take PK for example... he was good during the first half of the season, but he was definitely playing below his standards. And it reflected in his stats. Since 2015, and especially in the month of February, he's been playing out of his mind and anyone who watches the games can see it. Lo and behold, he's back at the top of the league in terms of advanced stats (which really buckle down to simply shot differentials). Similarly, the couple of times I've seen Giordano play, he blew me away. Whenever he'd be on the ice, the Flames would be in possession and would carry the play. Same thing goes for Letang and Doughty, both of whom have incredible possession stats this year.

If I were able to watch every single game of every single team, then I wouldn't need to look at possession stats, as I'd have a good idea of what the top D in the league can offer in terms of possession. Unfortunately, we all have lives outside of hockey (or we'd be analysts and not forum dwellers). Luckily, we can use possession stats to get an idea of how one player compares to another. And when one player completely dominates an other player in just about every stat in the book, you can make the assumption that the former is playing better hockey than the latter... in this case PK vs Weber.

I'll agree that using possession stats exclusively to rate certain players is dumb, especially when you start looking at individual stats out of context. You need to find a balance, or you end up like Berkshire who seemed to think Diaz was a stud.

I do understand that, which is why I acknowledge that they're sometimes a useful tool (well always, if used properly) but the qualm I have, is when people cite possession numbers for example to "prove" that X is better than Y. So I think we generally agree, given what you've just said here. I interpreted your stance as it almost "replaces" the eye test. If stats tend to corroborate what we actually observe, that's great. Sometimes they don't though, and I find that far too many people (again, not directed at you specifically) misuse them. And that's coming from someone who doesn't know how to use them, but can recognize when someone is misusing them.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

A week ago you said he had regressed under Therrien. lol

He has. He's a great blueliner and always will be but he was otherworldly good before.

It's a pretty weak year for blueliners and (as Lebowski said) he's been good, keeping in it the whole way and now he's gone on a hot streak. If Giordano is out for an extended period he becomes the front runner.

 

[DAChampion]

It's possible for Subban to have regressed in spite of performing better, given that he's paired to Markov and not Gorges/Gill.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It's possible for Subban to have regressed in spite of performing better, given that he's paired to Markov and not Gorges/Gill.

Weak field this year. He's got a good chance at another Norris.

 

[Nicko999]

The Subban-Markov pair now has at least a pt in 12 consecutive games.

Those 2 are insanely good right now.

 

[Hackett]

The Subban-Markov pair now has at least a pt in 12 consecutive games.

Those 2 are insanely good right now.

One is a cerebral assassin, and the other plays like the energizer bunny. I didn't think the habs could get away with putting these two guys together without having major issues with the other two pairs, but I guess the record speaks for itself right now.

 

[PricePkPatch*]

Someone remembers, earlier in the season, when the french radio personas were dumping on him after a single bad game?

Cant remember the date

 

[JGRB]

One is a cerebral assassin, and the other plays like the energizer bunny. I didn't think the habs could get away with putting these two guys together without having major issues with the other two pairs, but I guess the record speaks for itself right now.

It's mostly because when paired together neither has to over compensate for a weaker partner, which allows them to focus on getting the puck out of the zone and hemming the other team in theirs. How many times over the years have we seen Franky Bou or Gorges ruin any sustained offense created by Subban?

That's why having legitimate high-quality partners allows them to the best of their abilities. It's why we should still be looking at improving our top-4 d-corps.

Adding more offense would be nice, and to a degree we should be looking at adding that as well. But this is a team that can legitimately win games scoring 2-3 goals because of who they have in nets. You add a guy like Yandle who can contribute to that quick strike offense we like to play, and we are a DEADLY team to go up against.

 

[Frozenice]

He has. He's a great blueliner and always will be but he was otherworldly good before.

It's a pretty weak year for blueliners and (as Lebowski said) he's been good, keeping in it the whole way and now he's gone on a hot streak. If Giordano is out for an extended period he becomes the front runner.

I have a feeling it will be Weber as much for his body of work over his career as for his play this season. They seem to do that often enough, his name deserves to be on the trophy.

 

[habsfanatics*]

He has. He's a great blueliner and always will be but he was otherworldly good before.

It's a pretty weak year for blueliners and (as Lebowski said) he's been good, keeping in it the whole way and now he's gone on a hot streak. If Giordano is out for an extended period he becomes the front runner.

Subban's last two months of hockey are the best he's ever played. I tried telling you this earlier, but you seemed to still be stuck in the first 15-20 games of the season. Subban's been the best Dman in the league for 30-35 games now. Sometimes it's ok to adjust your opinion when things change and we have new information. Subban is playing better hockey than at any time in career right now. Enjoy it.

 

[habsfanatics*]

And that basically says it all about using advanced stats out of context. Ryan Suter looks pretty terrible there. Even Weber, probably the leading Norris candidate looks mediocre.

Not trying to take a shot at you, as people constantly misuse them. I'll admit, I don't even know how to properly understand/apply them yet, but I haven't really given them much of a chance. I suppose the one positive is that those stats for Subban absolutely match the eye test though, but I wouldn't say that's necessarily the case for all the players you listed.

Well, personally I think Weber is the most overrated player in the game, a heavy shot, big bone crushing hits and otherwise solid, but PK has been outplaying him for quite some time. The charts match what is happening on the ice imo. Ryan Suter could never drive the play like Subban and this just proves what almost everyone already knew.

 

[DangerDave]

Subban is an absolute beast this year. Weber will still win the Norris though since he's been the finalist for the past three years and it will be a well deserved win. Was watching the Detroit Nashville game yesterday and Weber is a machine. Never makes mistakes and capitalizes on everyone else's mistakes. He inflicts pain on the other team in many ways all while remaining disciplined and calm. He is also a huge scoring threat and is excellent at clearing the puck and making a first pass. He's not spectacular like Subban but he is clinical and efficient. Give this guy his hardware already.

 

[417]

I don't get why people think Weber will win the Norris...there hasn't been a better dman in the NHL other than Subban for the past 2 months

If he continues at this pace, he should be the runaway winner for the Norris

It's completely nonsense to think Weber should win mainly because he never has

 

[JGRB]

I don't get why people think Weber will win the Norris...there hasn't been a better dman in the NHL other than Subban for the past 2 months

If he continues at this pace, he should be the runaway winner for the Norris

It's completely nonsense to think Weber should win mainly because he never has

Good ol' Western Canadian boy.

He plays hockey the "right" way, man.

 

[habsfanatics*]

I don't get why people think Weber will win the Norris...there hasn't been a better dman in the NHL other than Subban for the past 2 months

If he continues at this pace, he should be the runaway winner for the Norris

It's completely nonsense to think Weber should win mainly because he never has

Agreed, but unfortunately I think that is exactly what will happen.

 

[habsfanatics*]

PK will struggle to win the hearts of the voters/coaches and the old boys club. We see it during games from officials even, any questionable/borderline incident involving PK the arm goes up right away. Never ever getting the benefit of the doubt, one can only speculate as to why that might be.

 

[DangerDave]

I don't get why people think Weber will win the Norris...there hasn't been a better dman in the NHL other than Subban for the past 2 months

If he continues at this pace, he should be the runaway winner for the Norris

It's completely nonsense to think Weber should win mainly because he never has

People think Weber will win it because he's been stellar as well not because he's always a finalist. Subban is probably my favorite player in the NHL but Weber is just so good. Subban is excellent at both ends of the ice but I think Weber just edges him defensively while being just as good offensively.