OVG's plans for FirstOntario Centre in Hamilton, Ontario could include an AHL team.

TheLegend

"Just say it 3 times..."
Aug 30, 2009
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Buzzing BoH

"EllisDon is building the renovation, which broke ground in May. FirstOntario Centre’s design and existence is heavily focused on live music and entertainment, but Pistore said the venue will have at least one, maybe two, minor league pro sports tenants. OVG is in conversations with the American Hockey League about a new team in Hamilton, with an announcement expected early next year, Pistore said. "


First question is OVG already owns the Coachella Valley Firebirds and its arena... so would an AHL playing there under another ownership be the target??
 

hockeyguy0022

Registered User
Feb 20, 2016
468
253
OVG is also a named mentioned in Saskatoon in funding for the new arena for revenue streams/booking rights over XX years.

They are making moves in all the secondary markets it appears.
 

dj4aces

An Intricate Piece of Infinity
Dec 17, 2007
6,539
1,628
Duluth, GA
"EllisDon is building the renovation, which broke ground in May. FirstOntario Centre’s design and existence is heavily focused on live music and entertainment, but Pistore said the venue will have at least one, maybe two, minor league pro sports tenants. OVG is in conversations with the American Hockey League about a new team in Hamilton, with an announcement expected early next year, Pistore said. "
I'm not entirely familiar with the Hamilton relationship with the AHL in the past. Was it very successful before? Why did they move?
 

No Fun Shogun

34-38-61-10-13-15
May 1, 2011
57,547
15,382
Illinois
An NHL or bust mentality seems to me to be the epitome of letting perfection be the enemy of good.

That being said, would the AHL be better supported than the OHL there? I could've sworn that there was genuine excitement the last time the Bulldogs closed their AHL ops and changed into an OHL team.
 

dj4aces

An Intricate Piece of Infinity
Dec 17, 2007
6,539
1,628
Duluth, GA
I... was hoping for accounts from folks in and around Hamilton, with regards to folks both here and in other parts of the boards who say they only want the NHL in Hamilton and would accept nothing less. If that's a general consensus amongst folks in and around Hamilton, why would the AHL award a franchise to a prospective owner there?
 

Helvigster

Registered User
Jan 8, 2019
88
94
I... was hoping for accounts from folks in and around Hamilton, with regards to folks both here and in other parts of the boards who say they only want the NHL in Hamilton and would accept nothing less. If that's a general consensus amongst folks in and around Hamilton, why would the AHL award a franchise to a prospective owner there?
I was born and raised in Hamilton. Unfortunately I'm more on the younger side in terms of age so I can't be 100% accurate about things that happened before the 2012-13 lockout, since I got into hockey by the time the NHL started the season.

In my opinion, hockey in Hamilton is what football is in Toronto. The Argos are largely ignored by the city, but they do have a small, yet passionate die-hard fan base. However, they are ignored because the general sports fans in Toronto typically see the CFL as "beneath" them and would rather see the NFL come to Toronto, and then they would really support their football team.

I think this is the same with Hamilton. Both iterations of the Bulldogs did have hardcore fans, but not a whole lot. They never had an average attendance per season climb to 6k, and they were playing in an arena with seats of 17k.

I'm making assumptions here so be skeptical. I think what happened is after Balsillie got told to piss off by the NHL for the last time, most of the hockey fans here became jaded and just gave up on the NHL. You have to remember that he spent about 4 or 5 years trying to buy an NHL team and move them here, and even before that Ron Joyce put in a bid for a Hamilton expansion team in the early 90's but he didn't have enough money to pull through. Hockey fans in this city were being told by potential owners for about 15 years that they were going to have an NHL team, only for it to never happen. I think people here just had enough and decided to move on.

That's not to say that all hockey fans have truly given up, but for most of those who are still hockey fans, I do believe that they are in the "NHL or bust" camp. I would also imagine that those who were holding out for the NHL fifteen years ago are also in the "NHL or bust" camp even if they don't care about hockey anymore. Again like Toronto and football, the bulk of hockey fans here are not willing to support any non-NHL team that makes their way over, and this is particularly amplified since they were genuinely close to landing NHL teams a few times before it ultimately never happened.

This is also why I think the OHL Bulldogs were eventually going to leave one way or another. They never had good consistent fan support. The most they ever averaged in a season was 4,251, and it's likely that their average attendance per season numbers are skewed because of school day games. Their playoff attendance wasn't great even in the championship years, and it was only until the final round that the arena started to really get full. The unfortunate part is that the Bulldogs were well-promoted in the city (or at least I think they were), but the bulk of hockey fans didn't care. They tried a "Hamilton Is Hockey" marketing tactic and it didn't stick. Adrian Tracy (local hero as a defensive end for the Ticats) showed up to at least a few playoff games in 2018, though the fans in attendance weren't too interested. The Ticats themselves tried to hype up the Bulldogs, and again it didn't stick. People just didn't care.

I'm curious as to what would've happened if Andlauer was able to get his 5k seat arena which would've been on the Mountain. The bulk of people live in Downtown, but they probably would've been able to draw from places like Brantford and such. Downtown Hamilton isn't exactly the nicest place around and I'm sure that's a sentiment echoed by traveling OHL fans. Maybe they would've been better off, or perhaps it would be a waste and there still wouldn't be any consistent fan support. I don't know for sure.

One last thing. When the Heritage Classic came by here, I swear there was absolutely no promotion about it in the city whatsoever. If you were in the city and you didn't know beforehand that the Heritage Classic was happening, the most that would happen is it would get mentioned to you in passing by somebody. 26k people showed up to the game, sure, but how many of those do you think were already living in Hamilton, compared to the travelling fans from Toronto and Buffalo? I'd honestly presume not too much. 12k people showed up to the OHL Outdoor Classic the day after, and like usual, the Bulldogs lost that kind of fan support after the game. The only time they saw a crowd like that for a game again was for Game 7 of the OHL finals, when I believe it was 11k people that showed up.

Anyway I apologize for going on and on and writing a whole lot. I just wanted to explain as a resident of the city what I believe is the general consensus among hockey fans here. My message isn't to explain why or why not Hamilton should have an NHL team like the bulk of hockey fans here think, it's simply to explain how I think they feel. My feelings are irrelevant in this matter. This also isn't an answer as to why OVG is willing to put an AHL team here when past hockey endeavors haven't typically had long-term success (save for the Bulldogs). Regardless, I hope this helped and I'm happy to be corrected by anyone who lives in or around the city with opposite experiences and feelings.

TL;DR: @stealth1 is likely right in that the majority of hockey fans in Hamilton will not support any level of hockey that is not the NHL; @WeaponOfChoice conveyed that accurately.
 

WeaponOfChoice

Registered User
Jan 25, 2020
672
366
I was born and raised in Hamilton. Unfortunately I'm more on the younger side in terms of age so I can't be 100% accurate about things that happened before the 2012-13 lockout, since I got into hockey by the time the NHL started the season.

In my opinion, hockey in Hamilton is what football is in Toronto. The Argos are largely ignored by the city, but they do have a small, yet passionate die-hard fan base. However, they are ignored because the general sports fans in Toronto typically see the CFL as "beneath" them and would rather see the NFL come to Toronto, and then they would really support their football team.

I think this is the same with Hamilton. Both iterations of the Bulldogs did have hardcore fans, but not a whole lot. They never had an average attendance per season climb to 6k, and they were playing in an arena with seats of 17k.

I'm making assumptions here so be skeptical. I think what happened is after Balsillie got told to piss off by the NHL for the last time, most of the hockey fans here became jaded and just gave up on the NHL. You have to remember that he spent about 4 or 5 years trying to buy an NHL team and move them here, and even before that Ron Joyce put in a bid for a Hamilton expansion team in the early 90's but he didn't have enough money to pull through. Hockey fans in this city were being told by potential owners for about 15 years that they were going to have an NHL team, only for it to never happen. I think people here just had enough and decided to move on.

That's not to say that all hockey fans have truly given up, but for most of those who are still hockey fans, I do believe that they are in the "NHL or bust" camp. I would also imagine that those who were holding out for the NHL fifteen years ago are also in the "NHL or bust" camp even if they don't care about hockey anymore. Again like Toronto and football, the bulk of hockey fans here are not willing to support any non-NHL team that makes their way over, and this is particularly amplified since they were genuinely close to landing NHL teams a few times before it ultimately never happened.

This is also why I think the OHL Bulldogs were eventually going to leave one way or another. They never had good consistent fan support. The most they ever averaged in a season was 4,251, and it's likely that their average attendance per season numbers are skewed because of school day games. Their playoff attendance wasn't great even in the championship years, and it was only until the final round that the arena started to really get full. The unfortunate part is that the Bulldogs were well-promoted in the city (or at least I think they were), but the bulk of hockey fans didn't care. They tried a "Hamilton Is Hockey" marketing tactic and it didn't stick. Adrian Tracy (local hero as a defensive end for the Ticats) showed up to at least a few playoff games in 2018, though the fans in attendance weren't too interested. The Ticats themselves tried to hype up the Bulldogs, and again it didn't stick. People just didn't care.

I'm curious as to what would've happened if Andlauer was able to get his 5k seat arena which would've been on the Mountain. The bulk of people live in Downtown, but they probably would've been able to draw from places like Brantford and such. Downtown Hamilton isn't exactly the nicest place around and I'm sure that's a sentiment echoed by traveling OHL fans. Maybe they would've been better off, or perhaps it would be a waste and there still wouldn't be any consistent fan support. I don't know for sure.

One last thing. When the Heritage Classic came by here, I swear there was absolutely no promotion about it in the city whatsoever. If you were in the city and you didn't know beforehand that the Heritage Classic was happening, the most that would happen is it would get mentioned to you in passing by somebody. 26k people showed up to the game, sure, but how many of those do you think were already living in Hamilton, compared to the travelling fans from Toronto and Buffalo? I'd honestly presume not too much. 12k people showed up to the OHL Outdoor Classic the day after, and like usual, the Bulldogs lost that kind of fan support after the game. The only time they saw a crowd like that for a game again was for Game 7 of the OHL finals, when I believe it was 11k people that showed up.

Anyway I apologize for going on and on and writing a whole lot. I just wanted to explain as a resident of the city what I believe is the general consensus among hockey fans here. My message isn't to explain why or why not Hamilton should have an NHL team like the bulk of hockey fans here think, it's simply to explain how I think they feel. My feelings are irrelevant in this matter. This also isn't an answer as to why OVG is willing to put an AHL team here when past hockey endeavors haven't typically had long-term success (save for the Bulldogs). Regardless, I hope this helped and I'm happy to be corrected by anyone who lives in or around the city with opposite experiences and feelings.

TL;DR: @stealth1 is likely right in that the majority of hockey fans in Hamilton will not support any level of hockey that is not the NHL; @WeaponOfChoice conveyed that accurately.
I think a memorial cup is fun and WJC would be awesome but yeah, no nhl=no thanks from me.
 

WeaponOfChoice

Registered User
Jan 25, 2020
672
366
An NHL or bust mentality seems to me to be the epitome of letting perfection be the enemy of good.

That being said, would the AHL be better supported than the OHL there? I could've sworn that there was genuine excitement the last time the Bulldogs closed their AHL ops and changed into an OHL team.
There was, you could've sworn right. I personally see the ohl as above the AHL. I've just preferred to spend my money on NLL.
Welp... Prepare to be busted on
Oh, 30 years of Bettman have me well prepared for that
 
Last edited:

dj4aces

An Intricate Piece of Infinity
Dec 17, 2007
6,539
1,628
Duluth, GA
I was born and raised in Hamilton. Unfortunately I'm more on the younger side in terms of age so I can't be 100% accurate about things that happened before the 2012-13 lockout, since I got into hockey by the time the NHL started the season.

In my opinion, hockey in Hamilton is what football is in Toronto. The Argos are largely ignored by the city, but they do have a small, yet passionate die-hard fan base. However, they are ignored because the general sports fans in Toronto typically see the CFL as "beneath" them and would rather see the NFL come to Toronto, and then they would really support their football team.

I think this is the same with Hamilton. Both iterations of the Bulldogs did have hardcore fans, but not a whole lot. They never had an average attendance per season climb to 6k, and they were playing in an arena with seats of 17k.

I'm making assumptions here so be skeptical. I think what happened is after Balsillie got told to piss off by the NHL for the last time, most of the hockey fans here became jaded and just gave up on the NHL. You have to remember that he spent about 4 or 5 years trying to buy an NHL team and move them here, and even before that Ron Joyce put in a bid for a Hamilton expansion team in the early 90's but he didn't have enough money to pull through. Hockey fans in this city were being told by potential owners for about 15 years that they were going to have an NHL team, only for it to never happen. I think people here just had enough and decided to move on.

That's not to say that all hockey fans have truly given up, but for most of those who are still hockey fans, I do believe that they are in the "NHL or bust" camp. I would also imagine that those who were holding out for the NHL fifteen years ago are also in the "NHL or bust" camp even if they don't care about hockey anymore. Again like Toronto and football, the bulk of hockey fans here are not willing to support any non-NHL team that makes their way over, and this is particularly amplified since they were genuinely close to landing NHL teams a few times before it ultimately never happened.

This is also why I think the OHL Bulldogs were eventually going to leave one way or another. They never had good consistent fan support. The most they ever averaged in a season was 4,251, and it's likely that their average attendance per season numbers are skewed because of school day games. Their playoff attendance wasn't great even in the championship years, and it was only until the final round that the arena started to really get full. The unfortunate part is that the Bulldogs were well-promoted in the city (or at least I think they were), but the bulk of hockey fans didn't care. They tried a "Hamilton Is Hockey" marketing tactic and it didn't stick. Adrian Tracy (local hero as a defensive end for the Ticats) showed up to at least a few playoff games in 2018, though the fans in attendance weren't too interested. The Ticats themselves tried to hype up the Bulldogs, and again it didn't stick. People just didn't care.

I'm curious as to what would've happened if Andlauer was able to get his 5k seat arena which would've been on the Mountain. The bulk of people live in Downtown, but they probably would've been able to draw from places like Brantford and such. Downtown Hamilton isn't exactly the nicest place around and I'm sure that's a sentiment echoed by traveling OHL fans. Maybe they would've been better off, or perhaps it would be a waste and there still wouldn't be any consistent fan support. I don't know for sure.

One last thing. When the Heritage Classic came by here, I swear there was absolutely no promotion about it in the city whatsoever. If you were in the city and you didn't know beforehand that the Heritage Classic was happening, the most that would happen is it would get mentioned to you in passing by somebody. 26k people showed up to the game, sure, but how many of those do you think were already living in Hamilton, compared to the travelling fans from Toronto and Buffalo? I'd honestly presume not too much. 12k people showed up to the OHL Outdoor Classic the day after, and like usual, the Bulldogs lost that kind of fan support after the game. The only time they saw a crowd like that for a game again was for Game 7 of the OHL finals, when I believe it was 11k people that showed up.

Anyway I apologize for going on and on and writing a whole lot. I just wanted to explain as a resident of the city what I believe is the general consensus among hockey fans here. My message isn't to explain why or why not Hamilton should have an NHL team like the bulk of hockey fans here think, it's simply to explain how I think they feel. My feelings are irrelevant in this matter. This also isn't an answer as to why OVG is willing to put an AHL team here when past hockey endeavors haven't typically had long-term success (save for the Bulldogs). Regardless, I hope this helped and I'm happy to be corrected by anyone who lives in or around the city with opposite experiences and feelings.

TL;DR: @stealth1 is likely right in that the majority of hockey fans in Hamilton will not support any level of hockey that is not the NHL; @WeaponOfChoice conveyed that accurately.
Very insightful, and I truly appreciate the response!

On Balsillie, I definitely recall rumors of him buying and moving the Preds that never panned out. I also remember him sniffing around Atlanta in an attempt to buy the Thrashers, but that failed because of the litigation between one of the estranged owners and the others who remained in the group. Can't sell something if you don't know who actually owns it.

At any rate, no need at all to apologize. I was genuinely curious, and I'm happy to have read a serious response! If the AHL goes back to Hamilton, I sincerely wish you guys the best of luck!
 
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mouser

Business of Hockey
Jul 13, 2006
29,610
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South Mountain
Very insightful, and I truly appreciate the response!

On Balsillie, I definitely recall rumors of him buying and moving the Preds that never panned out. I also remember him sniffing around Atlanta in an attempt to buy the Thrashers, but that failed because of the litigation between one of the estranged owners and the others who remained in the group. Can't sell something if you don't know who actually owns it.

At any rate, no need at all to apologize. I was genuinely curious, and I'm happy to have read a serious response! If the AHL goes back to Hamilton, I sincerely wish you guys the best of luck!

You’re skipping over Balsillie’s first team purchase attempt: the Pittsburgh Penguins.

Per court filings Balsillie was approved by the NHL to buy the Penguins but “blindsided” when the NHL wanted him to sign a non-relocation agreement as part of the purchase to keep the Penguins in Pittsburgh so long as new arena negotiations were still possible.

In hindsight the NHL was correct to sniff out that Balsillie had no intentions to keep the Penguins in Pittsburgh. The Nashville Predators would become Balsillie’s next target.
 

edog37

Registered User
Jan 21, 2007
6,213
1,760
Pittsburgh
No thanks AHL. It's NHL or bust
Bust it is. You’re not getting an NHL team.

You’re skipping over Balsillie’s first team purchase attempt: the Pittsburgh Penguins.

Per court filings Balsillie was approved by the NHL to buy the Penguins but “blindsided” when the NHL wanted him to sign a non-relocation agreement as part of the purchase to keep the Penguins in Pittsburgh so long as new arena negotiations were still possible.

In hindsight the NHL was correct to sniff out that Balsillie had no intentions to keep the Penguins in Pittsburgh. The Nashville Predators would become Balsillie’s next target.
Balsillie never was approved by the NHL to buy the Pens. He had an agreement to buy from Mario, but that’s not NHL BoG approval.
 

mouser

Business of Hockey
Jul 13, 2006
29,610
13,123
South Mountain
Balsillie never was approved by the NHL to buy the Pens. He had an agreement to buy from Mario, but that’s not NHL BoG approval.

I’m going by the Moyes court filings. Neither Balsillie nor the NHL disputed filings claiming the NHL was prepared to make him the Penguins owner with the no relocation agreement included. The vote itself never happened because Balsillie backed out after being presented with a purchase agreement containing the NHL mandated clause. The tenor of the filings and affidavits from Balsillie and Bettman cause me to believe the BoG vote would have been a formality.
 

jetsmooseice

Up Yours Robison
Feb 20, 2020
1,953
2,535
An NHL or bust mentality seems to me to be the epitome of letting perfection be the enemy of good.

That being said, would the AHL be better supported than the OHL there? I could've sworn that there was genuine excitement the last time the Bulldogs closed their AHL ops and changed into an OHL team.

I think the reality is that the Leafs are such a bright light in that region that anything other than a NHL team is destined to linger in the dark shadows of that team. A Hamilton NHL franchise would get the attention of Toronto and Leafs fans, thus it is worth supporting. Anything else does not, thus it deserves to be ignored. I think that is the mindset there insofar as hockey is concerned.

You can see it in the way that the GTHA, for all the talk of being the hockey centre of the world, basically ignores hockey other than the Leafs and the NHL. (As opposed to, say, big European capitals, which often have passionate support for multiple levels of soccer, or big American cities that have similar support for multiple levels of football.)
 

Takuto Maruki

Ideal and the real
Dec 13, 2016
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Brandon, Manitoba
You can see it in the way that the GTHA, for all the talk of being the hockey centre of the world, basically ignores hockey other than the Leafs and the NHL. (As opposed to, say, big European capitals, which often have passionate support for multiple levels of soccer, or big American cities that have similar support for multiple levels of football.)
In a way though, I can't blame people for thinking that way - but it's funny then that Hamilton is so gung-ho on being considered the prime landing spot for Toronto 2, when in reality that very name is going to instantly be considered a little brother for the Leafs (and in a way, overshadowed the way the Sens and Sabres to a lesser extent are when the Leafs play games in their home barns) that at this stage in the game, it may be impossible for them to ever break that belief, or ever get out of that hole even with continued good play and fan support.

At some point you just gotta fold the cards. Lord knows there's a few minor league markets (ahem, Manchester/Portland, ME) that have had to face the music and considered it such a bitter pill to swallow that they're now scorched earth markets. What will it take for Hamilton, or really the entirety of the outer ring of the GTA, to get to that point?
 

TheLegend

"Just say it 3 times..."
Aug 30, 2009
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Buzzing BoH
Probably getting way ahead of the conversation here but what’s the motive for OVG putting an AHL team in 1stOC???

They looking at a relocation??? Or a brand new team with separate owners…. say possibly for Atlanta or even Utah? (and no…. I’m not going to expand on the latter one here at this time).
 

gstommylee

Registered User
Jan 31, 2012
14,799
2,995
I've accepted that. The NHL would rather play in 200 k cities where no one cares about hockey. That's fine. NLL gets my money and attention then.

you do realize that a sports team fan base goes beyond the city in which it plays in?

Probably getting way ahead of the conversation here but what’s the motive for OVG putting an AHL team in 1stOC???

They looking at a relocation??? Or a brand new team with separate owners…. say possibly for Atlanta or even Utah? (and no…. I’m not going to expand on the latter one here at this time).
Utah already has an AHL affiliation.
 

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