Overdrive & Kyper and Bourne - Leafs Discussion Week of May 20

[Hellcat]

AJ Greer brings plenty of snot, so does Tom Wilson, both can help offensively too, so on this point your dead wrong imo……..

I think he was trying to say snot alone does not.... talent alone does not... luck alone does not... IMO you need may parts with different skillsets to come together, all on the same page, to win the cup.

Rielly's pinch killed us in game 7, which was endemic of what this team has been over the last 9 years, individuals who make the wrong individual decision, that are outside of the "system" that costs the team the game/series. Weakest link theory. The Panthers win because they play as one cohesive unit... the Leaf fail because there are too many players who wont or cant play in a structured team game...their good for a game or two then they have urges to be a hero and need to act on those urges and it costs us with a goal in our net.

 

[647Hockey]

I think he was trying to say snot alone does not.... talent alone does not... luck alone does not... IMO you need may parts with different skillsets to come together, all on the same page, to win the cup.

Rielly's pinch killed us in game 7, which was endemic of what this team has been over the last 9 years, individuals who make the wrong individual decision, that are outside of the "system" that costs the team the game/series. Weakest link theory. The Panthers win because they play as one cohesive unit... the Leaf fail because there are too many players who wont or cant play in a structured team game...their good for a game or two then they have urges to be a hero and need to act on those urges and it costs us with a goal in our net.

I dont know it's bad positioning, bad decisions, laziness or whatever.... but you'll notice when Leafs lose the 7th game in series, there's always some awful turnover or a play where the opposition just blows by everyone.

Pasternak did in OT, Marner must had done something stupid numerous times, in one of those old series against Boston (2018 I think) the Leafs were winning most of the game and blew it. I remember being at a bar with buddies and Jake Debrusk just blew by everyone on the right wing and scored. Made him look like Jagr.

 

[Tak7]

Honestly, AM is the No.1 overall pick.

Sorry but there is a difference between the No.1 Overall pick than Pick #4 and Pick #7 or 8.

If MM and Willie held that against the Leafs, they are really petty. Thats like saying Nicky Robbie wants a 11mil deal bc AM, MM and Willie all have them and when he only signs for 1.5mil, he held it against the Leafs for not giving him the 11mil contract.

The Marner camp argument at the time, was that many non-first overall picks ended up with these bonuses around the league as well - including Leon, Eichel, Dylan Strome (?) etc., so they should also be entitled to them.

They aren't necessarily wrong, especially if that was team policy, only for it to be blown up the following year when Matthews signed.

But it just speaks to how uber-competitive these guys were at getting their own dues first and foremost. This entire vibe/culture that reeked it's way across the entire organization, with this MeFirst attitude, is precisely why players like ROR came, sampled, and decided they wanted no part of this organization.

I also wonder whether this was a factor in Shanahan's blunder with canning Lou right before the ELCs expired, leaving a fresh negotiation with Dubas instead.

 

[Gabriel426]

The Marner camp argument at the time, was that many non-first overall picks ended up with these bonuses around the league as well - including Leon, Eichel, Dylan Strome (?) etc., so they should also be entitled to them.

They aren't necessarily wrong, especially if that was team policy, only for it to be blown up the following year when Matthews signed.

But it just speaks to how uber-competitive these guys were at getting their own dues first and foremost. This entire vibe/culture that reeked it's way across the entire organization, with this MeFirst attitude, is precisely why players like ROR came, sampled, and decided they wanted no part of this organization.

I also wonder whether this was a factor in Shanahan's blunder with canning Lou right before the ELCs expired, leaving a fresh negotiation with Dubas instead.

Regardless of what other players are getting.... The Leafs or any teams have every right to choose who to give out these bonuses. It is just stupid to complain or use it as some tool for getting a better deal down the line.

 

[Tak7]

Regardless of what other players are getting.... The Leafs or any teams have every right to choose who to give out these bonuses. It is just stupid to complain or use it as some tool for getting a better deal down the line.

I fully agree - I'm just highlighting what their concerns were, and how it set forth this MeFirst culture.

If they showed the same conviction on the ice as they did when it came to their contracts, they'd have won more than 2 pitiful playoff series during their era here

 

[Gabriel426]

I fully agree - I'm just highlighting what their concerns were, and how it set forth this MeFirst culture.

If they showed the same conviction on the ice as they did when it came to their contracts, they'd have won more than 2 pitiful playoff series during their era here

Agree with you from the start.

Heck, I won't even mind the MeFirst culture if they actually put up numbers in the playoffs like McD, Drai, Makar, Mack, heck even Marchand and Bennett.

 

[LOFIN]

The Marner camp argument at the time, was that many non-first overall picks ended up with these bonuses around the league as well - including Leon, Eichel, Dylan Strome (?) etc., so they should also be entitled to them.

They aren't necessarily wrong, especially if that was team policy, only for it to be blown up the following year when Matthews signed.

This is what the problem was, not that he wasn't given the bonuses in the first place.

 

[Tak7]

This is what the problem was, not that he wasn't given the bonuses in the first place.

I have long wondered just how much of Shanahan having Dubas replace Lou, right before the ELCs contracts all were up for renewed, was related to the contentious bonuses issue with Lou.

Personally think it's utterly ridiculous that 3 long years after the bonus situation arose, that they'd still be such a sticking point in negotiations.

 

[Craig Button]

This is what the problem was, not that he wasn't given the bonuses in the first place.

The problem was DUBAS thinking he was the smartest guy in the room and saying NO to Marner when his camp offered the Leafs 8 years X $8M. Dubas wanted to wait one more season so he signed JT and Marner went on to score 94 points

 

[AllHeartNoSkill]

Hayes just confirmed on the air that they’re moving on from Shanny. Which was expected.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Honestly, AM is the No.1 overall pick.

Sorry but there is a difference between the No.1 Overall pick than Pick #4 and Pick #7 or 8.

If MM and Willie held that against the Leafs, they are really petty. Thats like saying Nicky Robbie wants a 11mil deal bc AM, MM and Willie all have them and when he only signs for 1.5mil, he held it against the Leafs for not giving him the 11mil contract.

and that's what was defended at the time. Matthews was #1 that should have been a given (and don't you have to hit specific stuff anyway so I don't even know if they'd HIT the schedule B and on top of that) you're telling me you didn't find 2.9 m dollars in commericals or apperances in your three years of being the top 3 golden children off the city?

shut up.

 

[Gabriel426]

and that's what was defended at the time. Matthews was #1 that should have been a given (and don't you have to hit specific stuff anyway so I don't even know if they'd HIT the schedule B and on top of that) you're telling me you didn't find 2.9 m dollars in commericals or apperances in your three years of being the top 3 golden children off the city?

shut up.

agree.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Hayes just confirmed on the air that they’re moving on from Shanny. Which was expected.

yeah he's speaking to the Isles. whatever.

 

[WillNy29]

and that's what was defended at the time. Matthews was #1 that should have been a given (and don't you have to hit specific stuff anyway so I don't even know if they'd HIT the schedule B and on top of that) you're telling me you didn't find 2.9 m dollars in commericals or apperances in your three years of being the top 3 golden children off the city?

shut up.

I disagree in principle. many non first overall picks have gotten that bonus.

The problem was Lou was a hypocrite he made a point of saying it was policy that he did not give those bonuses to ANY rookie only to turn around and give it to someone after you've signed.

obviously you should get over it eventually but I can tell you for sure that it impacted the Marners

 

[Daisy Jane]

I disagree in principle. many non first overall picks have gotten that bonus.

The problem was Lou was a hypocrite he made a point of saying it was policy that he did not give those bonuses to ANY rookie only to turn around and give it to someone after you've signed.

obviously you should get over it eventually but I can tell you for sure that it impacted the Marners

that's fair. but they weren't on this team.
Like I don't know. there is a lot of two facedness that happens in any job. Policy for One isn't really Policy for All. but that's life. and to me. it just goes on and on to the fact that @Tak7 said. sure Lou said something one year and changed it the other, but why did they have to go MeFirst. just shut up and get the money elsewhere. OR do what Towes/Kane did and be like look. THIS is what we ALL want to make the team better.

NONE of them did that. it was me me me me me.
"Oh yeah i like the team."

a lot of these people are too Vercua Salt for me.

 

[The Masters]

O Dawg - how Shanny didn't bring in more Brendan's Shanahan's is crazy

 

[WillNy29]

that's fair. but they weren't on this team.
Like I don't know. there is a lot of two facedness that happens in any job. Policy for One isn't really Policy for All. but that's life. and to me. it just goes on and on to the fact that @Tak7 said. sure Lou said something one year and changed it the other, but why did they have to go MeFirst. just shut up and get the money elsewhere. OR do what Towes/Kane did and be like look. THIS is what we ALL want to make the team better.

NONE of them did that. it was me me me me me.
"Oh yeah i like the team."

a lot of these people are too Vercua Salt for me.

toews and Kane got matching ELCs and then also got those fugly backdropping retirement contracts.

some people are wired to be soft in that sense. they legitimately felt hurt by what Lou did he was pretty adamant with them. I've worked for a long while in the corporate world and these things destroy relationships and cause problems.

 

[Tak7]

that's fair. but they weren't on this team.
Like I don't know. there is a lot of two facedness that happens in any job. Policy for One isn't really Policy for All. but that's life. and to me. it just goes on and on to the fact that @Tak7 said. sure Lou said something one year and changed it the other, but why did they have to go MeFirst. just shut up and get the money elsewhere. OR do what Towes/Kane did and be like look. THIS is what we ALL want to make the team better.

NONE of them did that. it was me me me me me.
"Oh yeah i like the team."

a lot of these people are too Vercua Salt for me.

Hockey is so unique, in that you just can't hide.

No one "accidentally" win a cup - it exposes you.

From day one, these guys have put themselves first, instead of winning, and through 9 consecutive years their play (and let's be honest, their words too) have exposed them for what they are. They aren't determined or hellbent or hyper-focused on winning here.

They are determined and hellbent and hyper-focused on becoming the most lucratively compensated players they can possibly be.

We gave the captaincy last year, to someone who was so much more focused on signing a 4-year deal so he could hit another home run deal when he was 30, rather than signing a team-friendly max term deal.

.....and we all sit here wondering why there's a culture issue? And why these guys can't win?

 

[centipede2233]

The problem was DUBAS thinking he was the smartest guy in the room and saying NO to Marner when his camp offered the Leafs 8 years X $8M. Dubas wanted to wait one more season so he signed JT and Marner went on to score 94 points

It’s because dubas has zero foresight, like none.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

One thing Kypreos said I didn’t know. Apparently Lou told Marner and Nylander they are not doing the rookie bonuses like is the norm for high picks. Then a year later they gave the bonus to Matthews and that’s where everyone started to try to get their share. Right from the beginning basically.

So Marner missed out on possibly 2 or $3M over his entry deal and we had to pay him $3M extra per season for 6yrs to make up for it? He calls that fair? This is why I would never want a Derren Ferris client on my team ever again.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

People saying trade Matthews make me shake my head. We have a #1 W with Nylander to replace Marner with even if we need to bring in some PK help and another winger to work with Matthews, we still have a top line RW. We have no replacement #1 C aside from 36 year old Tavares

But also, Matthews is 6 foot 3 200+ pounds. Marner is 5 foot 10 allegedly and weak. Can't win a board battle. Matthews wins board battles, I've seen it with my eyes a million times over the years.. Specifically in his Hart season and his Canadian division season. He just needs health because he can't do it injured.

I agree. I also think that AM and MM bring out the best and worst in each other. By that I mean that MM is always looking for his trigger man to set him up and passes up chances to shoot and create in other ways. AM doesn't really create as much offense as he is capable of because he feels he just needs to get set up by MM.

When AM was playing with Domi at the end of last year...it seemed like he was carrying the puck more and being much more assertive trying to create offense. Once they put them together again...it went flat...plus he bonked his head in the Detroit game that injured him.

 

[Daisy Jane]

From day one, these guys have put themselves first, instead of winning, and through 9 consecutive years their play (and let's be honest, their words too) have exposed them for what they are. They aren't determined or hellbent or hyper-focused on winning here.

and that's what bothers me.
it works when it's one person. but when it's all 3? it doesn't.

people keep wanting to blame Lou and Dubas and Shanahan [and they deserve their pound of flesh] but where i am sitting these guys aren't innocent little lambs either.

 

[The Shadow]

So Marner missed out on possibly 2 or $3M over his entry deal and we had to pay him $3M extra per season for 6yrs to make up for it? He calls that fair? This is why I would never want a Derren Ferris client on my team ever again.

Bennett is also a Ferris client. Definitely a good idea to be cautious

NHL Contracts by Agent Darren Ferris | Puckpedia

puckpedia.com

 

[Bust]

People saying trade Matthews make me shake my head. We have a #1 W with Nylander to replace Marner with even if we need to bring in some PK help and another winger to work with Matthews, we still have a top line RW. We have no replacement #1 C aside from 36 year old Tavares

But also, Matthews is 6 foot 3 200+ pounds. Marner is 5 foot 10 allegedly and weak. Can't win a board battle. Matthews wins board battles, I've seen it with my eyes a million times over the years.. Specifically in his Hart season and his Canadian division season. He just needs health because he can't do it injured.

People are dumb. Period. No leaf fan with a brain wants to trade Matthews.

 

[Menzinger]

people didnt sign in Canada prior to the cap because our dollar was a peso. (well it still is but it works out). my second (and third) favourite teamsin the pre-cap era - were teams that weren't rich at all, so it's not me saying "Only Toronto hurr hurr hurr."


like I said. my team shouldn't have to bankroll the majority of the league, and then those teams pay their superstars to stay there, and then complain how our fanbase sucks. you don;t have to buy the invisible thing but that's what we're talking about if it just means not being in the public eye or dealing with the media or whatever they just want to go to the rink, and not be critiized for it. then do that. but then deal with the consequences of doing that. in this case that's called. being poor.

It's definitely something I've changed my mind on.

While I don't mind a cap of some sort (it could be approached differently like a luxury tax ect)

But at this point it's impossible to deny that quite warm weather US markets have an absolutely massive imbalance.

Toronto at least as a bigger city as a bit of a draw - but it comes with poor weather, massive pressure, Canadian taxes. It's insanely frustrating to listen to smug fans from other markets brag about their sweet deals on contracts.

Something needs to change.