Ovechkin top 10 player of all time?

[Video Nasty]

Blah blah blah nice excuses for Bossy.

Rockets:
Ovechkin: 8
Bobby Hull: 7
Esposito: 6
Gretzky/Howe/Richard: 5
Lemieux/Brett Hull : 3
Bossy: 2

GPG wins:
Ovechkin: 9
Bobby Hull: 8
Lemieux: 6
Richard/Esposito: 5
Gretzky/Howe/Brett Hull: 3
Bossy: 1

Combined:
Ovechkin: 17
Hull: 15
Esposito: 11
Richard: 10
Lemieux: 9
Gretzky/Howe: 8
Brett Hull: 6
Bossy: 3

You wanna diminish OV fine, but then explain everyone else who ****s on Bossy?

Again, how does any of that prove that Bossy didn’t face better top heavy competition than Ovechkin?

Using the primitive method of removing Gretzky and his effect on Kurri/Lemieux whom Ovechkin would lose to virtually every year of his career, Bossy would sit at 9 “combined” on your list. I also noticed you gave Lemieux a GPG win for playing half a season in 2000-2001.

In the end, all I’ve ever wanted to say when it comes to Bossy and Ovechkin, is they’re both in my top 5 (along with Gretzky, Lemieux, Hull and it’s even hard to argue against Esposito who I think is severely underrated when it comes to the top 5 discussions yet I understand those who will say he had the Orr effect benefit him much like I talk about Kurri).

Overall, I’ve just never understood why Ovechkin’s lack of competition is never brought up while Bossy is pushed down unnecessarily on the main board.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I don’t really care about what these players actual goal totals were realistically. I’m thinking about competition and I’m talking about obvious all-time great players like Gretzky and Lemieux who transcend whatever era they play. I’m talking about a player like Kurri who with Gretzky is an all time great goal scorer and without Gretzky is a rough comparable to current day Stamkos as a goal scorer.

When Bossy lost Rockets (and taking out the aforementioned players), he either lost to another all time great like LaFleur or lost to players playing lights out like McDonald (who is still a Hall of Famer mind you). It’s similar to how McDavid lost to Kucherov having a career year last season.

When Ovechkin lost, he got smoked by a much longer list of players who are mostly not going to be even Hall of Famers of their own era, let alone players like Gretzky and Lemieux who would hand him his lunch year in and year out. Overall, his competition in the goal scoring department has been very weak yet it doesn’t surprise me it’s hardly mentioned.

Here's what I find humorous in this: we're talking about a guy who's currently 8th in career goals scored in the NHL, and the best argument you can make for why he's not that good is "well, when he wasn't leading the league in scoring he was getting beaten by bums" and "back then there were a whole bunch of HOFers at the top."

It ignores that he's been in the league 14 years and he's led the league in goals more often than not, and he might well do it yet again in year #15. That alone should be enough to put this "he's not so good" talk to a halt ... but it's not, so we go on.

It ignores that 1.5 of those times he was topped by Crosby who's clearly headed for the HHOF, 1.5 of those times he was topped by Stamkos - who for the uninformed has 419 goals and is averaging over a PPG for his career, stats which are going to land him in the HHOF - and two of the other three he had 52 and 46 goals and got beaten by guys who had monster career years. (And Perry had a career year buoyed by a 19 goals in 14 games run at the end of the 2011 season - plus a pair of goalless games at the end - to push by Stamkos for the goal-scoring title in 2011.)

It ignores that he's 3rd in career PPG, only 6 behind Brett Hull and 15 behind Dave Andreychuk, and he's very likely to pass both of them in fewer GP.

It ignores that he's done all of that in an era where scoring is at least a goal and a half behind the high-flying era of the 80s where 50-goal, 100-point seasons were significantly more plentiful.

It romanticizes McDonald's 66-goal season and that he's a HOFer, ignoring that his last 3 years (age 33-35) he had a grand total of 35 goals in 169 games and was a shell of his former self and needed every last one of them to get to the magical 500 mark. (It's also fair question whether McDonald gets in without 500 goals and the Cup win in 1989; he was a 2nd-team All-NHL selection twice, never a 1st-team pick, and only ever got votes for a major award the year he potted 66). Ovechkin, at age 33, had 51 goals last season - or 16 more than McDonald scored dragging himself around the ice the last three years of his career - and has another 40 right now and was over 500 long before that, and was a 1st-team All-NHL pick last year for the 8th time in his career.

It assumes that stats are stats are stats, and zero context needs to be taken when comparing stats from different eras. See my example above.

Finally, it pretends that anyone is claiming Ovechkin is comparable to Gretzky or Lemieux, which no one has been doing. (Reminder of who the measuring stick is right now: a guy known for being a premier goal scorer in league history, not guys who were known for being premier offensive playmakers who could also score at will in their prime.) Keep the focus on the right reference point; don't make up straw men.

 

[Video Nasty]

Here's what I find humorous in this: we're talking about a guy who's currently 8th in career goals scored in the NHL, and the best argument you can make for why he's not that good is "well, when he wasn't leading the league in scoring he was getting beaten by bums" and "back then there were a whole bunch of HOFers at the top."

It ignores that he's been in the league 14 years and he's led the league in goals more often than not, and he might well do it yet again in year #15. That alone should be enough to put this "he's not so good" talk to a halt ... but it's not, so we go on.

It ignores that 1.5 of those times he was topped by Crosby who's clearly headed for the HHOF, 1.5 of those times he was topped by Stamkos - who for the uninformed has 419 goals and is averaging over a PPG for his career, stats which are going to land him in the HHOF - and two of the other three he had 52 and 46 goals and got beaten by guys who had monster career years. (And Perry had a career year buoyed by a 19 goals in 14 games run at the end of the 2011 season - plus a pair of goalless games at the end - to push by Stamkos for the goal-scoring title in 2011.)

It ignores that he's 3rd in career PPG, only 6 behind Brett Hull and 15 behind Dave Andreychuk, and he's very likely to pass both of them in fewer GP.

It ignores that he's done all of that in an era where scoring is at least a goal and a half behind the high-flying era of the 80s where 50-goal, 100-point seasons were significantly more plentiful.

It romanticizes McDonald's 66-goal season and that he's a HOFer, ignoring that his last 3 years (age 33-35) he had a grand total of 35 goals in 169 games and was a shell of his former self and needed every last one of them to get to the magical 500 mark. (It's also fair question whether McDonald gets in without 500 goals and the Cup win in 1989; he was a 2nd-team All-NHL selection twice, never a 1st-team pick, and only ever got votes for a major award the year he potted 66). Ovechkin, at age 33, had 51 goals last season - or 16 more than McDonald scored dragging himself around the ice the last three years of his career - and has another 40 right now and was over 500 long before that, and was a 1st-team All-NHL pick last year for the 8th time in his career.

It assumes that stats are stats are stats, and zero context needs to be taken when comparing stats from different eras. See my example above.

Finally, it pretends that anyone is claiming Ovechkin is comparable to Gretzky or Lemieux, which no one has been doing. (Reminder of who the measuring stick is right now: a guy known for being a premier goal scorer in league history, not guys who were known for being premier offensive playmakers who could also score at will in their prime.) Keep the focus on the right reference point; don't make up straw men.

Ovechkin is in my top 5 for goal scorers. This about Bossy constantly getting shitted on these boards. If anyone isn’t using context for the stats, it’s definitely people who chuckle at Bossy winning just two retro Rockets.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Using the primitive method of removing Gretzky and his effect on Kurri/Lemieux whom Ovechkin would lose to virtually every year of his career, Bossy would sit at 9 “combined” on your list.

Indeed. Let's ignore that whole "goalies weren't nearly as well trained in the skill of stopping pucks as they are today" aspect, and the "goalies wore much smaller equipment and took up less space" part of playing position - both of which explain a large part of why goal scoring was dramatically higher in the league 40 years ago than it is today.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

Ovechkin is in my top 5 for goal scorers. This about Bossy constantly getting ****ted on these boards. If anyone isn’t using context for the stats, it’s definitely people who chuckle at Bossy winning just two retro Rockets.

Agreed. Notice that I've not brought that up in any of my arguments, too. Bossy couldn't help that Gretzky was scoring 92, 71, 87 and 73 goals in a high-flying offensive system that threw caution to the wind on defense while he was playing in a system that put more of an emphasis on team defense and merely scoring 64-60-51-58. It still doesn't take away from what a tremendous goal-scorer Bossy was.

Just like Ovechkin can't help it if Crosby has missed decent swaths of about 3 seasons and has only topped 50 once, Stamkos hasn't come close to 50 since breaking his leg, Kane has spent a bunch of seasons in the high 20s in goals and has broken through to 40+ only twice with a career high of 46, Malkin for all his talent has one 50-goal season and two 100-point seasons, or that Kovalchuk decided to bail for the KHL a few years after putting up a pair of 50-goal seasons in '05-06 and '07-08. It doesn't take away from what a tremendous goal-scorer Ovechkin is.

 

[Vilica]

With regards to Bossy and Ovechkin, here's another fun one from the annals of team goals per game.

Islanders 82-83: 302 goals in 80 games, 3.775 per game (293/79 in Bossy games, 3.71)
Capitals 09-10: 313 goals in 82 games, 3.817 per game (267/72 in Ovechkin games, 3.71)

Mike Bossy 82-83: 79 games, 60+58=118 points, 0.76/0.73/1.49 per game
Alex Ovechkin 09-10: 72 games, 50+59=109 points, 0.69/0.82/1.51 per game

If I recall correctly, the Capitals scored 46 goals in the 10 games Ovechkin missed, and it looks like the Islanders beat Pittsburgh 9-0 in the only game Bossy missed.

Bossy 118 points/293 goals for, 60 goals/293 goals means he received points on ~40% of goals scored, and scored ~20% of goals
Ovechkin 109 points/267 goals for, 50 goals/267 goals means he received points on ~40% of goals scored, and scored ~19% of goals

It's almost like elite forwards tend to garner the same relative percentage of points/goals (though it does fluctuate year to year, it usually falls between 35-45% for points), and the biggest driver of actual point totals/goal totals is team goals for. That GF/G was Bossy's lowest of his career, as the Islanders scored 3323 goals in his 800 game career, or 4.154 per game. On the other hand, that was Ovechkin's highest GF/G of his career, as the Capitals have scored (before this year) 3367 goals in 1114 games, or 3.022 per game.

[This is a bit inaccurate, because I'm not accounting for games they missed, but if you apply Bossy's career numbers (573 goals, 1126 points) to that 3323 goals for in 800 games, he got a point on 33.9% of goals, and scored 17.2% of them. Bobby Hull in Chicago had 604 goals and 1153 points, while Chicago scored 3381 goals in 1082 games, so he got a point on 34.1% of goals, and scored 17.9%. Gordie Howe in Detroit had 786 goals and 1809 points, while Detroit scored 5145 goals in 1784 games, so he got a point on 35.2% of goals, and scored 15.3%. Alex Ovechkin had 658 goals and 1211 points prior to this season, on those 3367 goals, so he got a point on 36% of goals, and scored 19.5%.]

 

[GreatGonzo]

so you can’t admit that the facts outweigh your bias. Got it. You asked for reasons I gave you NHL records that Bossy set.

To your point about the Isles dynasty, have the Caps not been competitive? Upper tier? Granted they usually were rail roaded by the Pens, but that team hasn’t been a slouch either. So yeah getting it done when it counts the most goes into the equation. Bossy found a way to get it done. Ovechkin not so much. So by any metric, Bossy was the better goal scorer.

What bias? You brought up Stanley cups to justify him being a goal scorer while ignore other facts about goals that Ovechkin has Bossy beat.

And it’s easier to “get it done” when your on a line with Bryan Trottier, and play on a dynasty team. But again, I’m bias? Cool, apparently the Caps being a solid contender is equivalent to a 4 straight Stanley cup champion team that still hold playoff records as a team...but IM bias.

8x leading the league in goals to Bossys 2
4x leading the league in ES goals to Bossys 1
12x Top 10 in goals(all 12 in top 5) to Bossys 8/9
8x Goals per game leader to Bossys 1

I’m also not a HUGE fan of adjusted stats, but even Ovechkin is significantly ranked ahead of Bossy in goals adjusted.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Again, how does any of that prove that Bossy didn’t face better top heavy competition than Ovechkin?

Using the primitive method of removing Gretzky and his effect on Kurri/Lemieux whom Ovechkin would lose to virtually every year of his career, Bossy would sit at 9 “combined” on your list. I also noticed you gave Lemieux a GPG win for playing half a season in 2000-2001.

In the end, all I’ve ever wanted to say when it comes to Bossy and Ovechkin, is they’re both in my top 5 (along with Gretzky, Lemieux, Hull and it’s even hard to argue against Esposito who I think is severely underrated when it comes to the top 5 discussions yet I understand those who will say he had the Orr effect benefit him much like I talk about Kurri).

Overall, I’ve just never understood why Ovechkin’s lack of competition is never brought up while Bossy is pushed down unnecessarily on the main board.

Maybe because it would be very similar to bringing up the fact that Bossy also played with Trottier and Potvin his entire career. You can’t say having Trottier and Potvin feed you the puck isn’t going to boost your goals.

“lack of competition” isn’t exactly a great argument anyway. Bossy played against more inferior goaltending and overall defenses while playing on a Dynasty. Even if you took away Gretzky and Kurri, he still loses Goal scoring titles to Lanny McDonald, Charlie Simmer, and Michel Goulet. In fact he would have only lead the league in scoring 6 times compared to Ovechkins 8...and Ovechkin would be 9 if he hadn’t missed 10 games in 2010.

 

[Sentinel]

Bossy was a more gifted goal scorer. A true sniper

And Ovechkin isn't? What makes Bossy "more gifted"? Stats-wise, Ovy has left Bossy in the dust. Bossy's entire argument at this point is playoff goalscoring, but Ovy is one of the best playoff goalscorers of the last dozen years. Had Ovy had Trottier feeding him the puck, Potvin killing people in his own zone, and Smith between the pipes, he would simply have more opportunities to score in playoffs.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

And Ovechkin isn't? What makes Bossy "more gifted"? Stats-wise, Ovy has left Bossy in the dust. Bossy's entire argument at this point is playoff goalscoring, but Ovy is one of the best playoff goalscorers of the last dozen years. Had Ovy had Trottier feeding him the puck, Potvin killing people in his own zone, and Smith between the pipes, he would simply have more opportunities to score in playoffs.

Always love when people downplay the level of players that Ovechkin has had throughout his career. I guess Backstrom is just some Rec league level player when it comes to these arguments?

oh and the best players of all time don’t rely on other players to prop up their legitimacy and play. They control play themselves no matter who they are with. They make their own plays.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Always love when people downplay the level of players that Ovechkin has had throughout his career. I guess Backstrom is just some Rec league level player when it comes to these arguments?

oh and the best players of all time don’t rely on other players to prop up their legitimacy and play. They control play themselves no matter who they are with. They make their own plays.

You could argue that Backstrom isn't a true number 1 Center. he has done very well and they won a cup together so let the haters hate.
Could you imagine OV with a true number 1 Center?
I feel like OV makes Backstrom look better than he actually is. either way excellent Center.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

You could argue that Backstrom isn't a true number 1 Center. he has done very well and they won a cup together so let the haters hate.
Could you imagine OV with a true number 1 Center?
I feel like OV makes Backstrom look better than he actually is. either way excellent Center.

I agree that he’s not a true number 1 and hasn’t been for a good while. But he’s still a very good all around C. It’s just funny how some people throw players under the bus to prop up another.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

And Ovechkin isn't? What makes Bossy "more gifted"? Stats-wise, Ovy has left Bossy in the dust. Bossy's entire argument at this point is playoff goalscoring, but Ovy is one of the best playoff goalscorers of the last dozen years. Had Ovy had Trottier feeding him the puck, Potvin killing people in his own zone, and Smith between the pipes, he would simply have more opportunities to score in playoffs.

If Ovechkin is firing at goalies wearing padding of the 80s, whose training has them trying to stop shots to the non-glove side by swinging that stick up to try and trying to get the blocker on it, and who rarely drop to their knees to try and make a save, ........ well, I could suggest numbers here but let's his goal-scoring stats would be absolutely absurd.

You could argue that Backstrom isn't a true number 1 Center. he has done very well and they won a cup together so let the haters hate.
Could you imagine OV with a true number 1 Center?
I feel like OV makes Backstrom look better than he actually is. either way excellent Center.

Could you imagine if Brett Hull had been fed pucks by Adam Oates for more than 2 1/2 years instead of having a revolving cast at center for the rest of his days with the Blues? And no one is questioning whether Hull was one of the great goal-scorers of all time.

 

[edog37]

Rocket, 1st in goals same thing. Point is Bossy only did it twice. Most overrated player ever.

No it wasn’t a thing back then. Don’t conflate. And Mike Bossy overrated? Sure....one of the dumber things I’ve read on here . You clearly never saw him play

 

[edog37]

What bias? You brought up Stanley cups to justify him being a goal scorer while ignore other facts about goals that Ovechkin has Bossy beat.

And it’s easier to “get it done” when your on a line with Bryan Trottier, and play on a dynasty team. But again, I’m bias? Cool, apparently the Caps being a solid contender is equivalent to a 4 straight Stanley cup champion team that still hold playoff records as a team...but IM bias.

8x leading the league in goals to Bossys 2
4x leading the league in ES goals to Bossys 1
12x Top 10 in goals(all 12 in top 5) to Bossys 8/9
8x Goals per game leader to Bossys 1

I’m also not a HUGE fan of adjusted stats, but even Ovechkin is significantly ranked ahead of Bossy in goals adjusted.

I gave you the records you just refuse to accept the facts. Bossy was better...by a large degree. Hell I’d put Brett Hull ahead of Ovechkin

 

[edog37]

And Ovechkin isn't? What makes Bossy "more gifted"? Stats-wise, Ovy has left Bossy in the dust. Bossy's entire argument at this point is playoff goalscoring, but Ovy is one of the best playoff goalscorers of the last dozen years. Had Ovy had Trottier feeding him the puck, Potvin killing people in his own zone, and Smith between the pipes, he would simply have more opportunities to score in playoffs.

more excuses for a recency bias....got it.

 

[edog37]

To summarize those who (wrongly) think Ovechkin is a better goal scorer than Mike Bossy

1) Bossy played on a dynasty team, forgetting that Ovechkin played on a similarly talented team that just couldn’t get it done more than once

2) We have to adjust for eras, even though Bossy stood out amongst his peers by a wide margin in the era he played in.

3) Bossy was far more consistent. Nine 50+ goal seasons in a row. Never slumped even after the Isles dynasty ended.

4) Bossy had Trottier feeding him even though Ovechkin had Backstrom feeding him. Push.

I think this adequately covers it.

Verdict: Bossy was hands down a better goal scorer. Though I’ll give Ovechkin one thing...he’s clearly the far more durable player.

 

[Jedub]

To summarize those who (wrongly) think Ovechkin is a better goal scorer than Mike Bossy

1) Bossy played on a dynasty team, forgetting that Ovechkin played on a similarly talented team that just couldn’t get it done more than once

2) We have to adjust for eras, even though Bossy stood out amongst his peers by a wide margin in the era he played in.

3) Bossy was far more consistent. Nine 50+ goal seasons in a row. Never slumped even after the Isles dynasty ended.

4) Bossy had Trottier feeding him even though Ovechkin had Backstrom feeding him. Push.

I think this adequately covers it.

Verdict: Bossy was hands down a better goal scorer. Though I’ll give Ovechkin one thing...he’s clearly the far more durable player.

1. How many hhofers has Ovechkin played with compared to Bossy?

2. So has Ovechkin

3. Bossy played in an era where 50 goal seasons were far, far more common. Do you really think he'd be scoring 50 at 34 in a lower scoring league with way better goaltending?

4. Ovechkin scored over 100 points and over 50 goals his rookie season. Backstrom didnt show up for 2 more years,and Ovie would've had another year without him if there wasnt a lockout. Not a push.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

4) Bossy had Trottier feeding him even though Ovechkin had Backstrom feeding him. Push.

Are you seriously comparing Nicklas Backstrom to Bryan Trottier (one of only a small handful of players in NHL history who won a Hart trophy, a Conn Smythe, and an Art Ross)? Trottier is a Joe Sakic / Steve Yzerman level player - far superior to Backstrom.

 

[qwertyaas]

To summarize those who (wrongly) think Ovechkin is a better goal scorer than Mike Bossy

1) Bossy played on a dynasty team, forgetting that Ovechkin played on a similarly talented team that just couldn’t get it done more than once

2) We have to adjust for eras, even though Bossy stood out amongst his peers by a wide margin in the era he played in.

3) Bossy was far more consistent. Nine 50+ goal seasons in a row. Never slumped even after the Isles dynasty ended.

4) Bossy had Trottier feeding him even though Ovechkin had Backstrom feeding him. Push.

I think this adequately covers it.

Verdict: Bossy was hands down a better goal scorer. Though I’ll give Ovechkin one thing...he’s clearly the far more durable player.

So. You're saying that Ovechkin is nowhere near Bossy while in the same post, directly comparing Backstrom to Trottier?

Am I missing something?

 

[TheAngryHank]

Impressive. Second best of his era for sure. Though that’s because Malkin has had injury troubles

Its a good thing Sid hasn't had injury problems like Ovy.

 

[mr figgles]

Definitely not top 10. He can’t win cups or break records without Kuznetsov.

 

[GreatGonzo]

Always love when people downplay the level of players that Ovechkin has had throughout his career. I guess Backstrom is just some Rec league level player when it comes to these arguments?

oh and the best players of all time don’t rely on other players to prop up their legitimacy and play. They control play themselves no matter who they are with. They make their own plays.

And I love it when posters are faced with a fact they don’t like so they run around it and try to justify them still being right. Is saying the fact that he played on a dynasty insinuating that Ovechkin hasn’t had great teams? That’s how you have to make it to even have a point.

Is bringing up the fact that Trottier centered Bossy really got you so stumped that you have to try to make it equivalent to Backstrom or even Kuzy? Sorry but he had one of the best centers of all time driving his line, and that always helps. He isn’t a product of Trottier, but your out to lunch if you honestly believe it had zero affect on his goal scoring.

You just tried to compare Backstrom to Trottier, in the end that’s something your going to have to deal with as someone who thinks they know hockey.

To summarize those who (wrongly) think Ovechkin is a better goal scorer than Mike Bossy

1) Bossy played on a dynasty team, forgetting that Ovechkin played on a similarly talented team that just couldn’t get it done more than once

2) We have to adjust for eras, even though Bossy stood out amongst his peers by a wide margin in the era he played in.

3) Bossy was far more consistent. Nine 50+ goal seasons in a row. Never slumped even after the Isles dynasty ended.

4) Bossy had Trottier feeding him even though Ovechkin had Backstrom feeding him. Push.

I think this adequately covers it.

Verdict: Bossy was hands down a better goal scorer. Though I’ll give Ovechkin one thing...he’s clearly the far more durable player.

1) Ovechkin in no way shape or form played on “similar” teams to the Islander dynasty. Talent wise, also not close. Try again.

2)adjusted goals has Ovechkin 3rd and Bossy 61st. He also didn’t stand out or was as dominant as Ovechkin. Try again.

3)I mean leading the league in goals 6 out of the last 8 years isn’t consistent?

4) So it’s a push between Trottier and Backstrom, got it

Just because you continue ignoring facts and try to spin your own agenda while continuing to proclaim that, doesn’t make it true.

 

[edog37]

So. You're saying that Ovechkin is nowhere near Bossy while in the same post, directly comparing Backstrom to Trottier?

Am I missing something?

I’m pointing out the ridiculous notion that Ovechkin gets a pass because he “only plays” with Backstrom. Backstrom & Trottier are comparable players talent wise.

 

[GreatGonzo]

I gave you the records you just refuse to accept the facts. Bossy was better...by a large degree. Hell I’d put Brett Hull ahead of Ovechkin

What records?
-Most goal scoring titles: Ovechkin
-Most goals scored by a LWer: Ovechkin
Why ignore these records.

The same way Backstrom and Trottier are similar talents? Sure bud