HF Habs: Out of Town Thread: 2024-2025 season

[Whitesnake]

He just keeps producing, which is exactly what this team has lacked for decades. Time will tell if they made the right decision, but it's not looking good early on.

If Reinbacher becomes a serviceable No4...they did NOT take the right decision. Nobody will ever be able to tell me that a No4 RD is more serviceable than a 90 points player. Not happening.

People should tell me which RD in Florida last year had just as good a production/contribution than a top end forward?

In 22-23, Pietrangelo? And if the answer is yes, that means that the the WORST Reinbacher could become is Pietrangelo.

In 21-22: Makar is an exceptional player. No1 worthy. Reinbacher is SO FAR from being Makar. Choosing Reinbacher because Makar is insanely irrelevant.

In 20-21: Who in Tampa?
In 19-20: Pietrangelo etc.

So in essence the IMPORTANCE of using a top 5 pick because of HE IS AN RD is totally overrated. Unless your player comes with the pedigree of a Makar or a Pietrangelo. Rein is no Makar. Remains to be seen how Pietrangelo he is.

Imagine Tampa thinking that they should be picking Michael Paliotta in 2011 'cause he's a RD instead of a certain Nikita Kucherov...

 

[Miller Time]

Imagine Tampa thinking that they should be picking Michael Paliotta in 2011 'cause he's a RD instead of a certain Nikita Kucherov...

19 dmen were picked ahead of Kucherov... And the Bolts picked Namestokov over Kuch.

 

[habdynasty]

DeBrusk was a great signing for the Canuck’s.

 

[Team_Spirit]

Get to work Bobrov

 

[Shred]

I wouldn't trade 4 draft picks for Jiricek. I don't think Waddell is that bad an evaluator of talent.

Also they have Timmins and his legendary eye for defensemen

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It’s all good. I’ve got Mitch in the pool. He’s killing it for me.

 

[Whitesnake]

19 dmen were picked ahead of Kucherov... And the Bolts picked Namestokov over Kuch.

Not the point. When it was the time to pick, they went for talent. And going for Names instead of Kuch was not about position. It was about evaluation of talent. We went needs. And not only D...but right D. Made no sense then, makes no sense now. Will never make sense.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Not the point. When it was the time to pick, they went for talent. And going for Names instead of Kuch was not about position. It was about evaluation of talent. We went needs. And not only D...but right D. Made no sense then, makes no sense now. Will never make sense.

We’ll see. The guy hasn’t played a game yet.

 

[Miller Time]

Not the point. When it was the time to pick, they went for talent.

You were in their draft room?

also, strange how they didnt go for Kuch if "talent" is what they "went for"... unless you think namestikov is more talented than Kucherov

I get your point, I just dont think it's a coherent one. The Kucherov example simply and obviously highlights the flaw in your argument.

teams draft players they think will help their organization win. They all pick the BPA based on their own perspective of what is "best".

Habs picked RB ahead of Mickov for the same reason the other 5 teams passed on him... they felt the prospect they chose was "best" for them. Same reason the Bolts passed on Kuch in the first round that year... same reason 4 teams passed on Demidov this year.

in hindsight, its easy to nitpick. But the simple reality is that every team "misses" on some player that proves better than the one they picked.

If you have the ability to accurately predict which talented prospect will succeed and which won't, with complete accuracy, you should sell your services to the NFL for a few years then retire with the riches they will dump on you.

Michkov isn't the first, nor will he be the last, hyper talented prospect that gets bypassed for reasons other than his raw talent (see Caufield, Roy, Hutson for a few close to home examples)

And going for Names instead of Kuch was not about position. It was about evaluation of talent. We went needs. And not only D...but right D. Made no sense then, makes no sense now. Will never make sense.

You assume "we went needs". I don't agree that's the case except in the general sense that applies to every team (as with "best" player available).

The RB pick makes perfect sense. If you don't understand why, the issue may be with your understanding of asset management in the NHL (draft, cap system, roster building etc), and why talented, mobile and physically gifted RD are a prized commodity.

 

[Ezpz]

Moneyhands outscoring our entire team now.

 

[Tyson]

Moneyhands outscoring our entire team now.

Yeah talk about being over the hill

 

[Whitesnake]

You were in their draft room?

also, strange how they didnt go for Kuch if "talent" is what they "went for"... unless you think namestikov is more talented than Kucherov

I get your point, I just dont think it's a coherent one. The Kucherov example simply and obviously highlights the flaw in your argument.

teams draft players they think will help their organization win. They all pick the BPA based on their own perspective of what is "best".

Habs picked RB ahead of Mickov for the same reason the other 5 teams passed on him... they felt the prospect they chose was "best" for them. Same reason the Bolts passed on Kuch in the first round that year... same reason 4 teams passed on Demidov this year.

in hindsight, its easy to nitpick. But the simple reality is that every team "misses" on some player that proves better than the one they picked.

If you have the ability to accurately predict which talented prospect will succeed and which won't, with complete accuracy, you should sell your services to the NFL for a few years then retire with the riches they will dump on you.

Michkov isn't the first, nor will he be the last, hyper talented prospect that gets bypassed for reasons other than his raw talent (see Caufield, Roy, Hutson for a few close to home examples)



You assume "we went needs". I don't agree that's the case except in the general sense that applies to every team (as with "best" player available).

The RB pick makes perfect sense. If you don't understand why, the issue may be with your understanding of asset management in the NHL (draft, cap system, roster building etc), and why talented, mobile and physically gifted RD are a prized commodity.

I'm really stunned that you don't get my point. I wasn't in their draft room, they were. And it was said that both guys at 27, there were around 20 guys they liked, and both guys were in it.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/2725312/2021/07/24/whats-with-all-these-russians-behind-the-scenes-of-lightnings-2011-nhl-draft/

Is Names better than Kuch? Nope. But when they went for that pick, they thought so. They went BPA. And as you keep hearing me say times and times again, it's one thing to miss who the real BPA is. It's another to go needs instead. For example, wasn't a fan of the Mesar pick. But if Hughes and Co tell me that this is who they thought was the BPA at that pick...it soften the blow.

And please don't tell me we don't know if they went needs....there is no world where the statement doesn't say needs. Cooling down on a lefty but taking him 'cause he's a righty? ''[Reinbacher] is a very talented player. There's no doubt that there are many talented players in this Draft, but David Reinbacher is a player that was ranked near the top of our list, regardless of the fact that he's a defenseman. If he was a left-handed defenseman, maybe it would have changed our approach, but we don't have as much depth on the right side. [...] For us, he's the player that we believe can help our team the most.''

Hughes: 'He's the player that we believe can help our team the most' | Montréal Canadiens

The Habs first-round pick made headlines on Wednesday night

www.nhl.com

So it's not about a specific name. It's about a strategy. It's not nitpicking. I'm against anything that looks close to needs. Always has been. Righties are tough to find? Yeah, just like C's were tough...and then aren't. Also, winning teams do have some righties. I mean, Makar....Pietrangelo....If you think Reinbacher is Makar, not sure what to tell you. We will see about Pietrangelo.

But the insane pressure the guy will have when he'll join the Habs....wow. Especially with Michkov killing the Calder. He'll need to be insanely tough. Do we think he is?

 

[The Great Weal]

Fabbro is looking excellent with the Jackets. Kent didn't want to lose Barron for nothing but seems to have missed out.

 

[Miller Time]

I'm really stunned that you don't get my point. I wasn't in their draft room, they were. And it was said that both guys at 27, there were around 20 guys they liked, and both guys were in it.

I do. I just dont think it's a coherent one for the reasons previously stated.

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/2725312/2021/07/24/whats-with-all-these-russians-behind-the-scenes-of-lightnings-2011-nhl-draft/

Is Names better than Kuch? Nope. But when they went for that pick, they thought so.

yes. Every team picks the player they think is best at the spot. Sometimes they get it right, the vast majority of the time ALL teams "get it wrong".

But, reality is that what happens after draft isn't actually a reflection of whether the draft day assessment & decision was "right".... far too many variables at play for that to be true. Further reason why the hindsight narratives are faulty at best.

They went BPA. And as you keep hearing me say times and times again, it's one thing to miss who the real BPA is.

There is no real "bpa" except in the rare outlier generational talents picked at 1OA.

That's the issue with your argument, it's built of a flawed premise.

It's another to go needs instead. For example, wasn't a fan of the Mesar pick. But if Hughes and Co tell me that this is who they thought was the BPA at that pick...it soften the blow.

Every team goes with their perceived need. Arguing otherwise is a bit silly and ignores the decision-making realities of a professional sports franchise.

And please don't tell me we don't know if they went needs....there is no world where the statement doesn't say needs. Cooling down on a lefty but taking him 'cause he's a righty?

yes. RD is a position valued above LD. Not sure why that is difficult to understand.

''[Reinbacher] is a very talented player. There's no doubt that there are many talented players in this Draft, but David Reinbacher is a player that was ranked near the top of our list, regardless of the fact that he's a defenseman. If he was a left-handed defenseman, maybe it would have changed our approach, but we don't have as much depth on the right side. [...] For us, he's the player that we believe can help our team the most.''

Hughes: 'He's the player that we believe can help our team the most' | Montréal Canadiens

The Habs first-round pick made headlines on Wednesday night

www.nhl.com

So....
"He's the player we believe can help our team the most"

&

"David Reinbacher is a player that was ranked near the top of our list, regardless of the fact that he's a defenseman"

Kinda spells it out, no?

Perceived best player available & player most likely to help their organization

Kinda goes without saying that what position a player plays always factors into

So it's not about a specific name. It's about a strategy. It's not nitpicking. I'm against anything that looks close to needs. Always has been. Righties are tough to find? Yeah, just like C's were tough...and then aren't. Also, winning teams do have some righties. I mean, Makar....Pietrangelo....If you think Reinbacher is Makar, not sure what to tell you. We will see about PiPietrangelo.

Right... but the strategy you are arguing against isn't a real thing.

Reinbacher was very legitimately considered the top d prospect in the draft. Remains to be seen what his NHL ceiling ends up being. Makar, whom you reference, wasn't considered by anyone to become the generational talent he's establishing himself as at the time if the draft... he wasn't bypassed because the Devils, Flyers & Stars drafted for need, he was bypassed because it wasn't obvious he would become the top elite dman of his era.

But the insane pressure the guy will have when he'll join the Habs....wow. Especially with Michkov killing the Calder. He'll need to be insanely tough. Do we think he is?

It seems like KH & Co. are mindful of the unique pressures of playing in the Montreal market and have made a point of factoring in the ability to handle that kind of scrutiny in their prospect evaluation approach.

RB demonstrated strong mental toughness in how he handled himself last season as a teen in a string men's league & his recovery from injury. I suspect that his mental/emotional profile was part of why they viewed him as the right pick at that spot.

 

[teamfirst]

I do. I just dont think it's a coherent one for the reasons previously stated.


yes. Every team picks the player they think is best at the spot. Sometimes they get it right, the vast majority of the time ALL teams "get it wrong".

But, reality is that what happens after draft isn't actually a reflection of whether the draft day assessment & decision was "right".... far too many variables at play for that to be true. Further reason why the hindsight narratives are faulty at best.


There is no real "bpa" except in the rare outlier generational talents picked at 1OA.

That's the issue with your argument, it's built of a flawed premise.


Every team goes with their perceived need. Arguing otherwise is a bit silly and ignores the decision-making realities of a professional sports franchise.


yes. RD is a position valued above LD. Not sure why that is difficult to understand.


So....
"He's the player we believe can help our team the most"

&

"David Reinbacher is a player that was ranked near the top of our list, regardless of the fact that he's a defenseman"

Kinda spells it out, no?

Perceived best player available & player most likely to help their organization

Kinda goes without saying that what position a player plays always factors into

Right... but the strategy you are arguing against isn't a real thing.

Reinbacher was very legitimately considered the top d prospect in the draft. Remains to be seen what his NHL ceiling ends up being. Makar, whom you reference, wasn't considered by anyone to become the generational talent he's establishing himself as at the time if the draft... he wasn't bypassed because the Devils, Flyers & Stars drafted for need, he was bypassed because it wasn't obvious he would become the top elite dman of his era.




It seems like KH & Co. are mindful of the unique pressures of playing in the Montreal market and have made a point of factoring in the ability to handle that kind of scrutiny in their prospect evaluation approach.

RB demonstrated strong mental toughness in how he handled himself last season as a teen in a string men's league & his recovery from injury. I suspect that his mental/emotional profile was part of why they viewed him as the right pick at that spot.

Not picking Michkov at 5 was a mistake and it has nothing to do with Reinbacher

 

[Miller Time]

Not picking Michkov at 5 was a mistake and it has nothing to do with Reinbacher

Meh.

We'll see.

 

[Whitesnake]

I do. I just dont think it's a coherent one for the reasons previously stated.


yes. Every team picks the player they think is best at the spot. Sometimes they get it right, the vast majority of the time ALL teams "get it wrong".

But, reality is that what happens after draft isn't actually a reflection of whether the draft day assessment & decision was "right".... far too many variables at play for that to be true. Further reason why the hindsight narratives are faulty at best.


There is no real "bpa" except in the rare outlier generational talents picked at 1OA.

That's the issue with your argument, it's built of a flawed premise.


Every team goes with their perceived need. Arguing otherwise is a bit silly and ignores the decision-making realities of a professional sports franchise.


yes. RD is a position valued above LD. Not sure why that is difficult to understand.


So....
"He's the player we believe can help our team the most"

&

"David Reinbacher is a player that was ranked near the top of our list, regardless of the fact that he's a defenseman"

Kinda spells it out, no?

Perceived best player available & player most likely to help their organization

Kinda goes without saying that what position a player plays always factors into

Right... but the strategy you are arguing against isn't a real thing.

Reinbacher was very legitimately considered the top d prospect in the draft. Remains to be seen what his NHL ceiling ends up being. Makar, whom you reference, wasn't considered by anyone to become the generational talent he's establishing himself as at the time if the draft... he wasn't bypassed because the Devils, Flyers & Stars drafted for need, he was bypassed because it wasn't obvious he would become the top elite dman of his era.




It seems like KH & Co. are mindful of the unique pressures of playing in the Montreal market and have made a point of factoring in the ability to handle that kind of scrutiny in their prospect evaluation approach.

RB demonstrated strong mental toughness in how he handled himself last season as a teen in a string men's league & his recovery from injury. I suspect that his mental/emotional profile was part of why they viewed him as the right pick at that spot.

And again, it's not about what happens after. It's not about hindsight based on specific names etc. Never was. For example...Carey Price. We mostly all hated the pick. Why? Cause we did fall in the NEED trap. Hey we had Jose Theodore? The trophy winner. We didn't have a goalie need. We needed forward. We needed Brule (wrong) or some wanted Kopitar (right). But Timmins and Co went BPA. In their mind, this guy was far and away better than everybody else despite not having a glaring need. THAT is the BPA I'm talking about.

Is it always working? No. As you said, the draft is a beast in itself that nobody is always right. The best drafting teams are often wrong. No idea why we are discussing that. I've never said that a drafting team need to be 100%. But picking top 5, you CANNOT miss a potential 90 point player. This become a setback to any potential rebuild you will have.

Every team goes with the perceived need? You mean that every team for every pick goes for a perceived need? When they pick a winger, it's because they need a winger? When we picked a goalie per draft, it's because we need a goalie? Really? Nah, you pick who you love as a player and maybe as far as goaltending is concerned, since it's tougher to predict, you do use 1 pick out of 12 to see what you can get. But teams that are already filled a C, RW, or D will pick those positions regardless.

RD is a more position more valued than LD....because of their lack of it maybe...but not because SCup champions needed them....Actually because RD are rarer, tons of LD learn the RD position at a young age. Actually every position is more valued when you don't have any. Fill the RD positions...and goalie and C becomes more valued etc. So might as well pick the best players to the team's knowledge....and deal players to get needs in due time.

In the end though, based on your analysis, Reinbacher was better than Michkov based on the position he played....but are we done at filling the RD posiiton? If not, why couldn't Yakemchuck and Parekh be more valuable than Demidov?

Michkov was special talent. On this board, we all thought he were. And now he's showing it. I have no idea how we cannot take at least this one as a win for most of us.....

 

[teamfirst]

Meh.

We'll see.

Yup, we will

 

[Stive Morgan]

We had Brandon Hagel. At our development camp. And let him go.

Imagine the Habs hired me as their WHL scout. We'd have Wolf and Stankoven ffs.

 

[Miller Time]

And again, it's not about what happens after. It's not about hindsight based on specific names etc. Never was. For example...Carey Price. We mostly all hated the pick. Why? Cause we did fall in the NEED trap. Hey we had Jose Theodore? The trophy winner. We didn't have a goalie need. We needed forward. We needed Brule (wrong) or some wanted Kopitar (right). But Timmins and Co went BPA. In their mind, this guy was far and away better than everybody else despite not having a glaring need. THAT is the BPA I'm talking about.

Sure... fan preferences are all over the map.

What you define in that context as the BPA you are talking about there is no evidence that the current management group would not do the same (pick the player they rate the "best" even if the current need isn't there.

Is it always working? No. As you said, the draft is a beast in itself that nobody is always right. The best drafting teams are often wrong. No idea why we are discussing that. I've never said that a drafting team need to be 100%. But picking top 5, you CANNOT miss a potential 90 point player. This become a setback to any potential rebuild you will have.

Teams miss "90 point players" about as often as 90 point players emerge.

Only 7 of the 16 players that hit 90 points last season were picked top 5. And of those 7, 2 were picked after a dman who has proven to be the lesser talent (ekblad over reinhart/draisatl) & 1 was by passed by 3 lesser talents (makar).

You're holding a standard that is unrealistic given the way the NHL draft has unfolded for all teams historically.

Every team goes with the perceived need?

what they perceive is the best fot for the needs they prioritize, yes.

You mean that every team for every pick goes for a perceived need? When they pick a winger, it's because they need a winger?

Need is not limited to position. That is but one of many needs a team is juggling in building a roster and managing assets.

When we picked a goalie per draft, it's because we need a goalie? Really? Nah, you pick who you love as a player and maybe as far as goaltending is concerned, since it's tougher to predict, you do use 1 pick out of 12 to see what you can get. But teams that are already filled a C, RW, or D will pick those positions regardless.

Well, obviously... the draft is not where tesms are filling immediate (ie upcoming season) roster needs.

that does happen in the NFL, because of the unique nature of their league set up. For NHL tesms, the draft has very little (arguably nothing) to do with the immediate roster needs... i would have thought that obvious and unnecessary to state.

RD is a more position more valued than LD....because of their lack of it maybe...but not because SCup champions needed them....Actually because RD are rarer, tons of LD learn the RD position at a young age. Actually every position is more valued when you don't have any. Fill the RD positions...and goalie and C becomes more valued etc. So might as well pick the best players to the team's knowledge....and deal players to get needs in due time.

yes, and id argue that this is what most teams are doing.

what you see as a different strategy to the draft is likely moreso a difference in player assessments and differences in roster makeup prioritization (ie how teams value physical, mental, emotional competencies & how they weigh things like where the player is developing).

In the end though, based on your analysis, Reinbacher was better than Michkov based on the position he played....but are we done at filling the RD posiiton? If not, why couldn't Yakemchuck and Parekh be more valuable than Demidov?

I wanted Michkov. I'd have picked him.

I just understand why the Habs chose Reinbacher and I don't think there's much of a case to suggest that their approach was flawed. It is a pick that makes sense and is consistent with their overall approach. Can't win em all.

Michkov was special talent. On this board, we all thought he were. And now he's showing it. I have no idea how we cannot take at least this one as a win for most of us.....

OK... if it's a pat on the back you are seeking.... bravo! You (& me, and as you point out, a large chunk of fans) were right that Michkov is a very talented player. Can we move on now?

(& let's hope, as Habs fans, that you are wrong in your certainty that RB won't eventually be the better nhl contributor... if michkov ends up a 90 point winger, and RB ends up better than hat, that would be awesome, no?)

 

[Team_Spirit]

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

And again, it's not about what happens after. It's not about hindsight based on specific names etc. Never was. For example...Carey Price. We mostly all hated the pick. Why? Cause we did fall in the NEED trap. Hey we had Jose Theodore? The trophy winner. We didn't have a goalie need. We needed forward. We needed Brule (wrong) or some wanted Kopitar (right). But Timmins and Co went BPA. In their mind, this guy was far and away better than everybody else despite not having a glaring need. THAT is the BPA I'm talking about.

Is it always working? No. As you said, the draft is a beast in itself that nobody is always right. The best drafting teams are often wrong. No idea why we are discussing that. I've never said that a drafting team need to be 100%. But picking top 5, you CANNOT miss a potential 90 point player. This become a setback to any potential rebuild you will have.

Every team goes with the perceived need? You mean that every team for every pick goes for a perceived need? When they pick a winger, it's because they need a winger? When we picked a goalie per draft, it's because we need a goalie? Really? Nah, you pick who you love as a player and maybe as far as goaltending is concerned, since it's tougher to predict, you do use 1 pick out of 12 to see what you can get. But teams that are already filled a C, RW, or D will pick those positions regardless.

RD is a more position more valued than LD....because of their lack of it maybe...but not because SCup champions needed them....Actually because RD are rarer, tons of LD learn the RD position at a young age. Actually every position is more valued when you don't have any. Fill the RD positions...and goalie and C becomes more valued etc. So might as well pick the best players to the team's knowledge....and deal players to get needs in due time.

In the end though, based on your analysis, Reinbacher was better than Michkov based on the position he played....but are we done at filling the RD posiiton? If not, why couldn't Yakemchuck and Parekh be more valuable than Demidov?

Michkov was special talent. On this board, we all thought he were. And now he's showing it. I have no idea how we cannot take at least this one as a win for most of us.....

Okay. I wanted Michkov too.

But can we wait to see what RB does before declaring that this was a mistake? I think that’s reasonable.

Btw, I’ll have zero issues criticizing mgmt if it doesn’t work out. Michkov looked awesome and we passed. Why? Not sure: I suspect they felt they could get forward talent in the next draft and there was talk of him not really wanting to come here. Either way though he looks like he’ll be a beast. Very good chances we missed an awesome player.

But before I declare it a mistake I’d at least like to see what our own pick looks like.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

Fabbro is looking excellent with the Jackets. Kent didn't want to lose Barron for nothing but seems to have missed out.

Fabbro is garbage. It won't last.

 

[Boss Man Hughes]

And again, it's not about what happens after. It's not about hindsight based on specific names etc. Never was. For example...Carey Price. We mostly all hated the pick. Why? Cause we did fall in the NEED trap. Hey we had Jose Theodore? The trophy winner. We didn't have a goalie need. We needed forward. We needed Brule (wrong) or some wanted Kopitar (right). But Timmins and Co went BPA. In their mind, this guy was far and away better than everybody else despite not having a glaring need. THAT is the BPA I'm talking about.

Is it always working? No. As you said, the draft is a beast in itself that nobody is always right. The best drafting teams are often wrong. No idea why we are discussing that. I've never said that a drafting team need to be 100%. But picking top 5, you CANNOT miss a potential 90 point player. This become a setback to any potential rebuild you will have.

Every team goes with the perceived need? You mean that every team for every pick goes for a perceived need? When they pick a winger, it's because they need a winger? When we picked a goalie per draft, it's because we need a goalie? Really? Nah, you pick who you love as a player and maybe as far as goaltending is concerned, since it's tougher to predict, you do use 1 pick out of 12 to see what you can get. But teams that are already filled a C, RW, or D will pick those positions regardless.

RD is a more position more valued than LD....because of their lack of it maybe...but not because SCup champions needed them....Actually because RD are rarer, tons of LD learn the RD position at a young age. Actually every position is more valued when you don't have any. Fill the RD positions...and goalie and C becomes more valued etc. So might as well pick the best players to the team's knowledge....and deal players to get needs in due time.

In the end though, based on your analysis, Reinbacher was better than Michkov based on the position he played....but are we done at filling the RD posiiton? If not, why couldn't Yakemchuck and Parekh be more valuable than Demidov?

Michkov was special talent. On this board, we all thought he were. And now he's showing it. I have no idea how we cannot take at least this one as a win for most of us.....

No. Many did not think Michkoiv was a special talent. And even if he is it mean NOTHING.. Because if he is then teams passed on him because he wouldn't sign with them . So there is no way he was going to be a Hab.

 

[JianYang]

No. Many did not think Michkoiv was a special talent. And even if he is it mean NOTHING.. Because if he is then teams passed on him because he wouldn't sign with them . So there is no way he was going to be a Hab.

I don't know about that. It seemed to me that reports were saying he's the 2nd most talented player in the draft, and some even put him at the top of the list in that category.

So the talent part was likely not the reason for his drop.