Our mistake…

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Bang on. Won't it be a historic day when we extend Marner in the summer, locking in the last core piece with his NMC so we're guaranteed to spin our wheels for a number of years thereby delaying the inevitable rebuild. M&M can go down as all time Leaf record holders in multiple scoring categories, their fan boys can worship at the feet of the statues which will surely be built for them but unless a miracle happens and they start earning their pay in the playoffs, they will always be losers to me.

It is interesting that as soon as Dubas left, everything falls apart. Maybe it's just coincidence but I can't help but wonder, if the rumors are true and he was planning on trading a core piece, that had to be Marner and had that happened, who knows where we might be today?

I am pretty sure Dubas would have traded either Willy or Mitch had he stayed. He finally started to realize this wasn't going to work. The problem is that Tre comes in and gets a free pass to "See for himself" what this team is about and then the NMC's kicked in and that's all she wrote. I still think that Tre was hired simply because he told Shanny he could work with these guys as the core and wouldn't trade them. Shanny's vision was Dubas' vision as well....if they traded any of the 4 amigos....it would be egg on his face because everyone has been screeching for years that this wouldn't work out.

Shanny is going to go down with this ship IMO. He will just fade away after he is fired and enjoy his millions that MLSE paid him. He lives part time in NYC..he won't care about what TO thinks of his ass when he's gone.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

A few people here posted about it, I have no idea if there was anything to it or not.

If you doubt he was trying to trade for Karlsson as his shake up trade when he was here...just look at the first thing he did in Pittsburgh. And what a trade that was....Karlsson is going to get 50-60% of the points he had last year...way to go Kyle.

 

[Commander Clueless]

I know we generally refer to the Leafs as a "we" in the sense of the greater Leafs Nation. I have no problem with that. I do it all the time.

However in this case, there is no "we". We didn't make any bets. Shanny did.

He might still be vindicated at some point, but even just last year most people thought running it back another year was quite the gamble. Now we're locked in....

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

They'll make the playoffs and get crushed in the first round like usual. It;'s the same team that's been here for years. At least now people won't act like it's somehow a good thing. Progress, I guess. All it took was the failure Dubas getting fired, and not years of ineptitude...

 

[al secord]

Boy, are you gonna be embarrassed when we win the cup this year.

 

[Confucius]

Compare the heart that Sittler, Tiger W, McDonald and Salming gave to the team, vs AM, Mitchy, JT and Willie.
Not even in the same universe.

I’m using the Sittler years 1970-85

How many Cups did they win for us again?

Ok the playoff success they had?

Yep missed the playoffs completely 5 times, won one round 4 times but maybe you are all jacked about the one year they won 2 rounds.

With all that heart how come they didn’t do better?


not really a heck of a lot better than the 1 in 7 years the current guys have.

 

[ThrowDemTongs]

Our mistake was not inventing an immortality serum made exclusively for Gordon Lightfoot. And what you said.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I’m using the Sittler years 1970-85

How many Cups did they win for us again?

Ok the playoff success they had?

Yep missed the playoffs completely 5 times, won one round 4 times but maybe you are all jacked about the one year they won 2 rounds.

With all that heart how come they didn’t do better?

not really a heck of a lot better than the 1 in 7 years the current guys have.

They did a bit better in the playoffs than was expected of them. It's not as simple as cup means success, no cup is failure. Every team has different expectations and you hope your team reaches them, and it's always a thrill when they exceed them.

 

[Commander Clueless]

Boy, are you gonna be embarrassed when we win the cup this year.

An embarrassment we would all happily accept.

 

[Stephen]

I’m using the Sittler years 1970-85

How many Cups did they win for us again?

Ok the playoff success they had?

Yep missed the playoffs completely 5 times, won one round 4 times but maybe you are all jacked about the one year they won 2 rounds.

With all that heart how come they didn’t do better?


not really a heck of a lot better than the 1 in 7 years the current guys have.

Brendan Shanahan talked a lot about how watching the Leafs growing up, and as a 1969 born I would assume his most formative years of fandom would have lined up with the rise and dismantling of that Sittler/McDonald Leaf team under Punch Imlach and Harold Ballard in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

My belief is the way he's managing this core group is a historical (over)correction of that experience. He saw his childhood team dismantled, each core piece alienated and traded away for peanuts under old dinosaur management by Imlach. Young innovative coach Roger Nielson sidelined, humiliated, etc. Leafs plunged into a decade of darkness in the 1980s.

By being over-protective and patient with this current core group, he's trying to avoid the mistakes of a generation ago. But I think there's also a middle way where a contending core can evolve over time and get closer to its championship goals without it being quite the fiasco the Sittler years became.

 

[Confucius]

They did a bit better in the playoffs than was expected of them. It's not as simple as cup means success, no cup is failure. Every team has different expectations and you hope your team reaches them, and it's always a thrill when they exceed them.

Couldn’t agree more with the bolder part.

 

[TheShape]

Bang on. Won't it be a historic day when we extend Marner in the summer, locking in the last core piece with his NMC so we're guaranteed to spin our wheels for a number of years thereby delaying the inevitable rebuild. M&M can go down as all time Leaf record holders in multiple scoring categories, their fan boys can worship at the feet of the statues which will surely be built for them but unless a miracle happens and they start earning their pay in the playoffs, they will always be losers to me.

It is interesting that as soon as Dubas left, everything falls apart. Maybe it's just coincidence but I can't help but wonder, if the rumors are true and he was planning on trading a core piece, that had to be Marner and had that happened, who knows where we might be today?

I'm honestly here now. I'm convinced there's a directive from above that the core do not go anywhere, retain them and figure it out.

Dubas did a lot of damage here to say the least, I became less and less of a fan as time went on. But one thing Kyle Dubas was not afraid to do was make trades. I 100% believe a priority of his was going to be to trade one of Nylander or Marner.

 

[JKG33]

A bunch of losers thru and thru. They have been since day 1. Nobody was brought in to show them the way and now any change is too little too late.

I'm no fan of Babcock or Lou, but those two have incredible resumes. Yet the coach got fired because he's a big meanie, and the GM got fired because they couldn't possibly let boy wonder behind him get poached.

The new GM gave them every unearned dollar their little hearts desired. The new coach couldn't stratgize his way out of a wet paper bag.. but at least theyre both nice and pleasant to the players.

No worthwhile leadership was brought in. You want to teach the kids what it takes to make a playoff run? Let's bring in the experts. Tavares, Marleau, Thornton, Spezza, Giordano.. and their combined 0 Stanley Cups.

By the time Dubas just started to figure it out the damage was already done. The inmates were running the asylum. The entitled 3 knew they could get away with murder and still get paid in Toronto, who could blame them? There's a reason proven winners like Schenn and ROR gtfo'd as quickly as they arrived. This team is a f***ing embarrassment to any player with a winning pedigree or an ounce of self respect.

Now what do we have to show for it? Two of the three already got their undeserved raises. No major changes to the top end of the roster, just shuffling titanic deck chairs in the bottom of the lineup. The dipshit coach had to health bomb a 4th liner as some half assed message to the group for f***s sakes.

The loss to Columbus. The loss to Montreal. The loss to a zamboni driver. This team has all the talent in the world yet they're somehow more embarrassing to be a fan of than Burke's era with Kessel and Phaneuf.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Bang on. Won't it be a historic day when we extend Marner in the summer, locking in the last core piece with his NMC so we're guaranteed to spin our wheels for a number of years thereby delaying the inevitable rebuild. M&M can go down as all time Leaf record holders in multiple scoring categories, their fan boys can worship at the feet of the statues which will surely be built for them but unless a miracle happens and they start earning their pay in the playoffs, they will always be losers to me.

It is interesting that as soon as Dubas left, everything falls apart. Maybe it's just coincidence but I can't help but wonder, if the rumors are true and he was planning on trading a core piece, that had to be Marner and had that happened, who knows where we might be today?

It's borderline irrelevant IMO.

Dubas, with Shanahan's approval, was the reason it got bad in the first place. Everything that is happening now is a ramification of how those two thought they could reinvent hockey with an unbalanced team with little depth, heart, consistent goaltending or mental+physical grit. You can't win a Cup with a cap structure and goaltending situation like this. Not a chance in hell. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Not going to happen. The only conclusion is that the Cup isn't really the primary goal, which many of us already knew.

EDIT: Brendan Shanahan has won the Stanley Cup. He should have an idea what kind of balance, intensity and work ethic is required. Too bad he shapeshifted into an empty suit after joining the org.

If Dubas did want to change the core before he was removed, it was too little too late. That should have been at least entertained after Columbus or Montreal, and not 2023. That is not hindsight, many were saying that at the time. The warning signs were all there by those times or before. I get the "better late than never" deal, but that's not satisfactory. I do not accept that explanation.

The Leafs cannot afford to extend Marner to what he wants, nor should they. Enough is enough with this group. They're not on 2nd chances, or 3rd chances, they're on their 456th chance. Enough.






TLDR DUBAS PASSED ALL THE TESTS THO

 

[ClarkSittler]

I’m using the Sittler years 1970-85

How many Cups did they win for us again?

Ok the playoff success they had?

Yep missed the playoffs completely 5 times, won one round 4 times but maybe you are all jacked about the one year they won 2 rounds.

With all that heart how come they didn’t do better?


not really a heck of a lot better than the 1 in 7 years the current guys have.

Sittler left in 81, Lanny and Tiger in 79. Sittler did play to 85 but not with the Leafs.

As for their success, they made the Conference finals in Sittler's 7th year, Lanny's 5th, Salming's 5th, Tiger's 4th. Much sooner than our current stars.

Unfortunately they ran into the Montreal dynasty of the 70's in back to back years. Too bad we had an idiot for an owner and he broke up the team or they might have made a finals or two, maybe even won a cup, they were much closer than this group and comparably paid a lot less.

 

[mikeyz]

I'm half to three quarters of the way with you on your post.

I think this team cares to a certain extent. They're not 100% about their contract and nothing else.... They want to win. But in terms of being driven to win.... They're not quite at the level of some other players and teams. McKinnon being the best example, but there's others too.

Breaking them up.... That's where I'm most with you. Many of us for the past year or two have thought that this team needs one, maybe even two of the top four gone. And JT was always going to be here because of his age and contract, that means one of the other three, and I would have even said two of the other three could have gone.

Would it have been taking a massive risk? Yes.

But it seems what we have now is a perpetually 'just good enough team'. A team that can be in the top 10 in the regular season and can make the playoffs, but will not overmatch many teams they face in the playoffs, simply because as you said, the wealth hasn't been spread around enough.

They only care if the flow of the game is in their element. Pond hockey/shinny style. But, once teams start getting chippy, physical and basically putting the shit on them, they have less then zero interest in adapting and playing that style and they just disappear. Matthew Tkachuk alluded to this in the post game after that game 5 last spring.


It's simply who they are.

 

[ANDI P IS CUTE]

….Was betting on a core of entitled baby men. These “men” (boys) don’t know the meaning of sacrifice (on the ice nor in terms of their contracts). They are just money grubbing kids that want want want.
Not only did Dubas commit but so did his predecessor (which just goes to show you one of three things…
1)Dubas put all his eggs in one basket (betting on the core)
2)Dubas wanted to change things up but was stopped by the likes of Shanahan.
3)Treliving (figurehead)was brought in to do exactly what Shanahan wanted (keep the core).

The core should have been broken up and the wealth spread around.

For the next number of years we will be stuck with this core and all we’ll be able to do is plug holes with cheap contracts hoping that we come up with the right combination of talented stars and a)people willing to take pay cuts b)last chance kick at the can players c) players looking for a shot.

This team lacks heart, character and any sense of direction.

I feel for all my fellow Lead fans…

you forgot spoiled and immature. this group couldnt carry wendels or dougies jockstrap. heck even sundin. roberts,corson, nolan, tucker domi etc etc etc

 

[Leafblooded]

Brendan Shanahan talked a lot about how watching the Leafs growing up, and as a 1969 born I would assume his most formative years of fandom would have lined up with the rise and dismantling of that Sittler/McDonald Leaf team under Punch Imlach and Harold Ballard in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

My belief is the way he's managing this core group is a historical (over)correction of that experience. He saw his childhood team dismantled, each core piece alienated and traded away for peanuts under old dinosaur management by Imlach. Young innovative coach Roger Nielson sidelined, humiliated, etc. Leafs plunged into a decade of darkness in the 1980s.

By being over-protective and patient with this current core group, he's trying to avoid the mistakes of a generation ago. But I think there's also a middle way where a contending core can evolve over time and get closer to its championship goals without it being quite the fiasco the Sittler years became.

A very Freudian take

 

[KingJoffrey]

the mistake was hiring Dubas who didn't have a clue how to build a team after Lou left

if you go back and look at the team Dubas took over it's easy to see what our needs were and the type of players we needed to add to build around 3 extremely talented players

the team should how been targeting physical grinding type players in the draft and through trades instead of adding a big name expensive C which they didn't need and small somewhat talented finesse players

and i'm not saying you don't draft/trade for the odd smaller or finesse player , i'm just saying Dubas acquired far too many

True.

Dubas wanted to make name of self and brought Tavares when there was no need to do that.

Hard ass GM's would make young RFA's squell. Lou has his faults (UFA signings) but his track record is good with RFA players.

Shanahan, Dubas and media are to blame. Shanahan for hiring Dubas. Dubas for his bad deals and media is responsible for overhyping these softies to kings of the city before any success.

 

[ZEBROA]

As a GM i would consider overpay 3 positions. Top goalie , 1st line D, 1st line C. And then if i had money to spend after good depth players add a great defensive D. A great GM looks for those bad managed player that got great underlying skillsets. That perform better when games are on the line. Like a William Karlsson , etc.

We should never had spend the money on Tavares , we had a top C. And not overpayed Marner. Two stupid things. And paid Nylander the 7 without draging it out.

 

[colchar]

I am pretty sure Dubas would have traded either Willy or Mitch had he stayed.

Based on what, exactly?

He finally started to realize this wasn't going to work.

How would you know that?

The problem is that Tre comes in and gets a free pass to "See for himself" what this team is about and then the NMC's kicked in and that's all she wrote.

One of the NMCs kicked in within a few weeks of him being hired so what did you expect him to do in that time?

 

[leafs in five]

this is interesting

do you think

Tavares
Sammy
McCabe
Gio
Brodie

would all be playing much better if Dubas was still here ?

I don't know but every player we signed last summer is a lot worse than the players they were signed to replace

 

[leafs in five]

I’m pretty confident in saying that they were spoiled brats before their massive deals because Babs was on them since Jump Street about it. Him getting fired and then receiving their massive paydays undoubtedly reinforced their entitled attitudes though, which is something that remains to this day - as shown in Mitch’s embarrassing post game quotes last night.

if Babcock hating on a player confirms that that player is soft and not a winner etc then Modano, Franzen, maybe even Chelios are all confirmed soft, not winners, etc

 

[Niagara Bill]

I’m using the Sittler years 1970-85

How many Cups did they win for us again?

Ok the playoff success they had?

Yep missed the playoffs completely 5 times, won one round 4 times but maybe you are all jacked about the one year they won 2 rounds.

With all that heart how come they didn’t do better?


not really a heck of a lot better than the 1 in 7 years the current guys have.

True, but I was proud and able to cheer for them. and consider the weight they carried with ownership every day. They were not pampered, had many coaches and yet you saw the fans reaction to Salming the warrior. At this point the word warrior does not apply to any Leaf of today.

 

[Confucius]

Sittler left in 81, Lanny and Tiger in 79. Sittler did play to 85 but not with the Leafs.

As for their success, they made the Conference finals in Sittler's 7th year, Lanny's 5th, Salming's 5th, Tiger's 4th. Much sooner than our current stars.

Unfortunately they ran into the Montreal dynasty of the 70's in back to back years. Too bad we had an idiot for an owner and he broke up the team or they might have made a finals or two, maybe even won a cup, they were much closer than this group and comparably paid a lot less.

I credit the very limited success the team had for a couple of years to their coach,(captain video) Neilson.

And I guarantee when Mathews career is done and he is introduced as the greatest goal scorer in Leafs history, he will also be billed as a warrior