Our mistake…

[DougGilmour93]

….Was betting on a core of entitled baby men. These “men” (boys) don’t know the meaning of sacrifice (on the ice nor in terms of their contracts). They are just money grubbing kids that want want want.
Not only did Dubas commit but so did his predecessor (which just goes to show you one of three things…
1)Dubas put all his eggs in one basket (betting on the core)
2)Dubas wanted to change things up but was stopped by the likes of Shanahan.
3)Treliving (figurehead)was brought in to do exactly what Shanahan wanted (keep the core).

The core should have been broken up and the wealth spread around.

For the next number of years we will be stuck with this core and all we’ll be able to do is plug holes with cheap contracts hoping that we come up with the right combination of talented stars and a)people willing to take pay cuts b)last chance kick at the can players c) players looking for a shot.

This team lacks heart, character and any sense of direction.

I feel for all my fellow Lead fans…

Click to read more...

 

[mjd1001]

I'm half to three quarters of the way with you on your post.

I think this team cares to a certain extent. They're not 100% about their contract and nothing else.... They want to win. But in terms of being driven to win.... They're not quite at the level of some other players and teams. McKinnon being the best example, but there's others too.

Breaking them up.... That's where I'm most with you. Many of us for the past year or two have thought that this team needs one, maybe even two of the top four gone. And JT was always going to be here because of his age and contract, that means one of the other three, and I would have even said two of the other three could have gone.

Would it have been taking a massive risk? Yes.

But it seems what we have now is a perpetually 'just good enough team'. A team that can be in the top 10 in the regular season and can make the playoffs, but will not overmatch many teams they face in the playoffs, simply because as you said, the wealth hasn't been spread around enough.

 

[Niagara Bill]

I don't think Dubas is any better than Brad T. And vise versa.
They all make stupid decisions.
Example. Is there anyone who thinks that Bertuzzi is worth 4.5m more than having Steeves in that spot?
Holl was bad, but much superior to Brodie.
Reaves??? Wow, what a success that has been, but you cannot pay Schenn. ( or Schenn said f you guys)
The decision makers had no faith that McMann could play. Isn't that what internal scout and development staff are for.
Did they not see how mentally weak Sam is, other teams did.

 

[Brown Dog]

Hindsight certainly shows Dubas screwed it up (IMO). But you can see how it unfolded...

-Tavares's appeal was understandable, as players of that calibre rarely come available and Leafs finally had the advantage of the hometown draw
-Dubas believed he could splurge on a luxury UFA based on the assumption that our RFAs would likely be ok taking significantly less than UFA Tavares
-RFAs instead used Tavares signing as a benchmark and reinvented the entire team cap structure
-Dubas tried to play hardball with Nylander, who held out for half the year and was useless for the other half
-Dubas saw what happened with Willie and was terrified about trying to be similarly tough with Matthews and Marner (faces of the franchise) and so caved to their unprecedentedly giant asks as RFAs
-Overpaying four forwards meant Dubas had next to no room for error in filling out the rest of the roster and our depth gradually bled out
-All of this was then compounded by the timing of the COVID cap crunch
-Also meant that our core guys got paid before we knew if they could elevate their game in the playoffs...we all know how that turned out

Now seems clear we missed our window with this core. How depressing is that?

 

[horner]

….Was betting on a core of entitled baby men. These “men” (boys) don’t know the meaning of sacrifice (on the ice nor in terms of their contracts). They are just money grubbing kids that want want want.
Not only did Dubas commit but so did his predecessor (which just goes to show you one of three things…
1)Dubas put all his eggs in one basket (betting on the core)
2)Dubas wanted to change things up but was stopped by the likes of Shanahan.
3)Treliving (figurehead)was brought in to do exactly what Shanahan wanted (keep the core).

The core should have been broken up and the wealth spread around.

For the next number of years we will be stuck with this core and all we’ll be able to do is plug holes with cheap contracts hoping that we come up with the right combination of talented stars and a)people willing to take pay cuts b)last chance kick at the can players c) players looking for a shot.

This team lacks heart, character and any sense of direction.

I feel for all my fellow Lead fans…

Signing JT and not fixing the defense at that time
Management jumping the rebuild.
Not trading for Toews when he was traded from the islanders.
Not signing Hyman

 

[29Potvin]

Patty,Speeza,Simmer and Jumbo are not glue guys that pull players into the fight.
They never won a cup and many of the players they replaced left and won cups.
Our captin is inbplace because Babs wanted a off ice role model for the young guys the problem is everyone knows that this is Matthews team and we have had a placeholder that does nothing on the ice that make you want to go to battle with him.
Look at the way Mak/McDavid/Bergeron leed from the front. Mak and McDavid willed their team for three/two down.
What does JT do?
Our leader is a loser and has shown zero heart, hell the boys couldn't even rally after he was hirt against Mtl
Its clear that JT is part of the problem beyond his salary and people talking about resigning him after this contract ends are crazy. It was a failed experiment.
The team and fans owe JT nothing.
As much as I hate to say it as he is the only heart and soul guy the Leafs have I hope we move Mo to a team that will give him a chance at winning a cup.

 

[TonsofPuppies]

Hindsight certainly shows Dubas screwed it up (IMO). But you can see how it unfolded...

-Tavares's appeal was understandable, as players of that calibre rarely come available and Leafs finally had the advantage of the hometown draw
-Dubas believed he could splurge on a luxury UFA based on the assumption that our RFAs would likely be ok taking significantly less than UFA Tavares
-RFAs instead used Tavares signing as a benchmark and reinvented the entire team cap structure
-Dubas tried to play hardball with Nylander, who held out for half the year and was useless for the other half
-Dubas saw what happened with Willie and was terrified about trying to be similarly tough with Matthews and Marner (faces of the franchise) and so caved to their unprecedentedly giant asks as RFAs
-Overpaying four forwards meant Dubas had next to no room for error in filling out the rest of the roster and our depth gradually bled out
-All of this was then compounded by the timing of the COVID cap crunch
-Also meant that our core guys got paid before we knew if they could elevate their game in the playoffs...we all know how that turned out

Now seems clear we missed our window with this core. How depressing is that?

While your listed timeline of events is likely not inaccurate, I feel it is missing the focal point that explains why we are so far up Shit Creek. Yes, our star players are overpaid for their level of production relative to their peers, but the bigger issue imo is the fact that all of them have shown, repeatedly, that they are simply unable / unwilling to elevate their games and find that elusive “other gear” in big games / high pressure situations, which is why their playoff record is so dismal.

If you want to see what this other gear looks like, watch how Morgan Rielly plays in the playoffs relative to his regular season play. There is a massive jump in his compete level and he also thrives in that environment, consistently being our best player in the playoffs, year after year. Interestingly enough, he’s also the only “core” guy who took lower than his market value (Seth Jones and Darnell Nurse got 2M more) to remain here, which further showcases his desire and commitment to winning.

While I was not a fan of Babs’ archaic coaching style, he was absolutely correct about the laziness and entitlement of our prima donna stars and tried his best to beat it out of them. IMO, it has now been allowed to fester for too long and another coaching change isn’t going to fix that, though I still want Sheldon gone. The core needs to be dismantled. This has been obvious for years. We’re simply spinning our tires and delaying the inevitable.

 

[Gary Nylund]

While your listed timeline of events is likely not inaccurate, I feel it is missing the focal point that explains why we are so far up Shit Creek. Yes, our star players are overpaid for their level of production relative to their peers, but the bigger issue imo is the fact that all of them have shown, repeatedly, that they are simply unable / unwilling to elevate their games and find that elusive “other gear” in big games / high pressure situations, which is why their playoff record is so dismal.

If you want to see what this other gear looks like, watch how Morgan Rielly plays in the playoffs relative to his regular season play. There is a massive jump in his compete level and he also thrives in that environment, consistently being our best player in the playoffs, year after year. Interestingly enough, he’s also the only “core” guy who took lower than his market value (Seth Jones and Darnell Nurse got 2M more) to remain here, which further showcases his desire and commitment to winning.

While I was not a fan of Babs’ archaic coaching style, he was absolutely correct about the laziness and entitlement of our prima donna stars and tried his best to beat it out of them. IMO, it has now been allowed to fester for too long and another coaching change isn’t going to fix that, though I still want Sheldon gone. The core needs to be dismantled. This has been obvious for years. We’re simply spinning our tires and delaying the inevitable.

Bang on. Won't it be a historic day when we extend Marner in the summer, locking in the last core piece with his NMC so we're guaranteed to spin our wheels for a number of years thereby delaying the inevitable rebuild. M&M can go down as all time Leaf record holders in multiple scoring categories, their fan boys can worship at the feet of the statues which will surely be built for them but unless a miracle happens and they start earning their pay in the playoffs, they will always be losers to me.

It is interesting that as soon as Dubas left, everything falls apart. Maybe it's just coincidence but I can't help but wonder, if the rumors are true and he was planning on trading a core piece, that had to be Marner and had that happened, who knows where we might be today?

 

[hotpaws]

It is interesting that as soon as Dubas left, everything falls apart. Maybe it's just coincidence but I can't help but wonder, if the rumors are true and he was planning on trading a core piece, that had to be Marner and had that happened, who knows where we might be today?

this is interesting

do you think

Tavares
Sammy
McCabe
Gio
Brodie

would all be playing much better if Dubas was still here ?

and this rumor that he was planning on trading a core piece was invented when he simply said at his year end presser that everything was on the table , that and his puppets at the Athletic spewing non sense about how Shanny blocked all Dubies genius moves while only allowing his crap trades . lol

also can you imagine how big a disaster our 2nd line would be if we traded Willie (who was the popular guy to move in the offseason) for a D

 

[IPS]

Lol Dubie potentially trading Marner? Delusional, nobody showed loyalty to Mitch like Dubie did.

 

[BayStBullies]

The mistake was paying the core as if they had already achieved something, then pairing that with a junior coach for the same window. Shanny burnt the window to elevate this team.

 

[TheGroceryStick]

We’re trying to get playoff style hockey out of a shinny hockey (all star game compete) core.

Why would filler players go to war when the highest paid guys are wondering what song to play in the lockerroom after the game, and not the sacrifice needed to win.

We have a core full of “did my job”s , that it trickles down to guys that know how to battle.

 

[Brown Dog]

While your listed timeline of events is likely not inaccurate, I feel it is missing the focal point that explains why we are so far up Shit Creek. Yes, our star players are overpaid for their level of production relative to their peers, but the bigger issue imo is the fact that all of them have shown, repeatedly, that they are simply unable / unwilling to elevate their games and find that elusive “other gear” in big games / high pressure situations, which is why their playoff record is so dismal.

If you want to see what this other gear looks like, watch how Morgan Rielly plays in the playoffs relative to his regular season play. There is a massive jump in his compete level and he also thrives in that environment, consistently being our best player in the playoffs, year after year. Interestingly enough, he’s also the only “core” guy who took lower than his market value (Seth Jones and Darnell Nurse got 2M more) to remain here, which further showcases his desire and commitment to winning.

While I was not a fan of Babs’ archaic coaching style, he was absolutely correct about the laziness and entitlement of our prima donna stars and tried his best to beat it out of them. IMO, it has now been allowed to fester for too long and another coaching change isn’t going to fix that, though I still want Sheldon gone. The core needs to be dismantled. This has been obvious for years. We’re simply spinning our tires and delaying the inevitable.

We'll never know for sure if (over)paying our stars early turned them into spoiled brats that didn't need to achieve anything to reap the rewards or if they were always going to lack that extra gear.

But one thing is for sure by now: for whatever reason, this core doesn't have what it takes.

 

[hotpaws]

the mistake was hiring Dubas who didn't have a clue how to build a team after Lou left

if you go back and look at the team Dubas took over it's easy to see what our needs were and the type of players we needed to add to build around 3 extremely talented players

the team should how been targeting physical grinding type players in the draft and through trades instead of adding a big name expensive C which they didn't need and small somewhat talented finesse players

and i'm not saying you don't draft/trade for the odd smaller or finesse player , i'm just saying Dubas acquired far too many

 

[Ducer]

I know it's from a different era but can we get Doug Gilmour back into coaching and turn into a Pat Burns style hockey team...

 

[mjd1001]

It is interesting that as soon as Dubas left, everything falls apart. Maybe it's just coincidence but I can't help but wonder, if the rumors are true and he was planning on trading a core piece, that had to be Marner and had that happened, who knows where we might be today?

Last year they were 4th in the conference (out of 16 teams), This year they are 6th (one or two wins away from being in 4th again). A little worse yes, but I'm not at the point of saying its falling apart yet.

 

[TonsofPuppies]

We'll never know for sure if (over)paying our stars early turned them into spoiled brats that didn't need to achieve anything to reap the rewards or if they were always going to lack that extra gear.

But one thing is for sure by now: for whatever reason, this core doesn't have what it takes.

I’m pretty confident in saying that they were spoiled brats before their massive deals because Babs was on them since Jump Street about it. Him getting fired and then receiving their massive paydays undoubtedly reinforced their entitled attitudes though, which is something that remains to this day - as shown in Mitch’s embarrassing post game quotes last night.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Compare the heart that Sittler, Tiger W, McDonald and Salming gave to the team, vs AM, Mitchy, JT and Willie.
Not even in the same universe.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Last year they were 4th in the conference (out of 16 teams), This year they are 6th (one or two wins away from being in 4th again). A little worse yes, but I'm not at the point of saying its falling apart yet.

They're 6th in the East by PTS% and in a 3-way tie for 9th with TB/WSH by regulation PTS%. Considering regulation hockey is all there is in the post-season (no gimmicks), that does not bode well for the playoffs, assuming they even get that far. The odds of them missing the playoffs ATM are probably no better than the odds of them winning a round. And other than our rookie goaltender, we've had no injury issues to speak of and if anybody gets hurt, we could be in big trouble.

Compare the heart that Sittler, Tiger W, McDonald and Salming gave to the team, vs AM, Mitchy, JT and Willie.
Not even in the same universe.

Yup.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Leafs are a joke. we went all in one too many times and now we are tapped out.
we have next to nothing that teams want for upgrades and the upgrades we can get for what we have left are likely nothing more than a lateral deal.

I really dont believe the core cares at all. they will get their money and then when playoffs comes around and they will give up, should have made MAJOR changes after we lost to MTL.

now we cant even win a game unless we score 5-6 goals. just same shit bigger pile

 

[Buds17]

Kyle's idea of changing things up might have very well included the acquisition of Erik Karlsson. That would have involved one change (a defenceman) while also adding more of the same (another big contract/double digit AAV). I'll agree that #1 and #3 seem to be fair enough points.

 

[Niagara Bill]

Bang on. Won't it be a historic day when we extend Marner in the summer, locking in the last core piece with his NMC so we're guaranteed to spin our wheels for a number of years thereby delaying the inevitable rebuild. M&M can go down as all time Leaf record holders in multiple scoring categories, their fan boys can worship at the feet of the statues which will surely be built for them but unless a miracle happens and they start earning their pay in the playoffs, they will always be losers to me.

It is interesting that as soon as Dubas left, everything falls apart. Maybe it's just coincidence but I can't help but wonder, if the rumors are true and he was planning on trading a core piece, that had to be Marner and had that happened, who knows where we might be today?

I never heard that rumour about trading, I truly hope that Shanny did not make the decision based on that. If so Shanny must ho, and Brad must go as a yes man.
Brad was a yes man in Calgary, which shows in the failure to remove Sutter, and anyone could see that need

 

[kevsh]

I just hope Brad saw Marner's comments post-game and came to the conclusion everyone else has, that's he's immature and those kind of comments need an internal response.

He's not going to get traded, but before this organization commits 8 years and $XX million more to him he needs a serious attitude adjustment. Wonder if the next coach will be up for it (would be a great interview question: "You've got a star player acting like a child...") and if so, will Shanahan try to step in and protect the "kid" or accept that someone at MLSE has to finally hold these guys accountable?

Whatever happens this spring, this off-season may get very interesting. Or, they'll just run it back for another year.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I never heard that rumour about trading, I truly hope that Shanny did not make the decision based on that. If so Shanny must ho, and Brad must go as a yes man.
Brad was a yes man in Calgary, which shows in the failure to remove Sutter, and anyone could see that need

A few people here posted about it, I have no idea if there was anything to it or not.

 

[rumman]

I never heard that rumour about trading, I truly hope that Shanny did not make the decision based on that. If so Shanny must ho, and Brad must go as a yes man.
Brad was a yes man in Calgary, which shows in the failure to remove Sutter, and anyone could see that need

Sutter has/had more hockey pedigree and knowledge that all the hockey minds in Calgary, but he wouldn’t coddle the players so he had to go, it’s a real shame what hockey has become……….