GDT: Ottawa Senators at Vancouver Canucks - 10PM - TSN5/RDS2 - Putting 2023 in the back of the net. Letting the Goals Rain Down in Rain City Edition

[bert]

Ok, so if we paid a first to Seattle to protect him, then he isn't ready to be an NHL goalie once eligible for waivers, that's the asset management move in your view?

It's just revisionist crap so that you can get extra angry at Dorion, it's fine , the bad man is gone, he can't hurt you anymore, take a break.

Why is this the cost?! Players were protected for far less this time around. You had to make up an outrageous hypothetical to make a rebuttal. Followed by another personal attack. Sad.

 

[coladin]

I think a lot of Senators fans were a bit surprised that Dorion kept Gus over Daccord only to ship him out soon after for Talbot.

Dorion was right to acquire Gus in a solid trade, he was correct in retaining him over Daccord, but he was wrong in trading him for Talbot. Unfortunately, two rights don't make up for the wrong.



Maybe it's simplistic because they are both Nords, but he reminds me of Tommy Salo.



I think we've all been wondering (hoping?) this for weeks now.

I guess the difficulty in keeping Gus is they think that Sogaard and/or Merilainen will be just as good or better. I was on board with Talbot for Gus, because I believed that Sogaard had more potential and having Forsberg in a tandem just bought time for Sogaard and Merilainen to mature.

I thought Gus was amazing technically, almost computer-like and seriously unlike any other goalie I had seen in Ottawa. But he got f***ed over because of Matt Murray, and sitting a lot as the 3rd goalie, screwed his season and made him look worse than he was. Even this year he reverted to that form in Ottawa when he struggled...

 

[NyQuil]

I guess the difficulty in keeping Gus is they think that Sogaard and/or Merilainen will be just as good or better. I was on board with Talbot for Gus, because I believed that Sogaard had more potential and having Forsberg in a tandem just bought time for Sogaard and Merilainen to mature.

I thought Gus was amazing technically, almost computer-like and seriously unlike any other goalie I had seen in Ottawa. But he got f***ed over because of Matt Murray, and sitting a lot as the 3rd goalie, screwed his season and made him look worse than he was. Even this year he reverted to that form in Ottawa when he struggled...

What I found so strange about Gus was how young he was.

With the kind of experience he had, you assumed he was a lot older.

Just thought it was a bit odd to give up on him so early.

 

[RickyLafleur]

Gus is a way way way way better goalie than anything this team has. He is one of the best technical goalies in hockey which helps negate the horrible back breaking goals.

Korpisalo is one of the weakest goalies mentally I have ever seen. He is a not a middle of the pack goalie. He lets in horrible back breaking goals at the worst possible times. He lets goals in in bunches all the time. He breaks out of what should be simple positioning and decision making all the time. The goal against Carolina in game 1 of the year to give up the lead in the third where he tried to catch the puck over his blocker shoulder is the best example I can present. He is great with no pressure as soon as the game gets tough he loses all his composure.

Everyone saw this coming. Matt Murray 2.0 minus the cups, and injuries.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

When he played in front of a team that wasnt riddled with covid his numbers were good on a worse roster than this one. He is a more talented goalie than anything this team has trotted out there for a long time. He's a way better goalie than Korpisalo.

Gus was always the best this team had, he had the best pedigree, he was the highest pick and he had the best track record. The eye test also matches it, he moves efficiently, tracks the puck really well and is discipline in his style. Ill tell you right now that goal Korpisalo let in against Carolina never goes in on Gus. That hits him in the shoulder every single time. The goal last night that went in on Korpisalo doesnt go in he would have pushed out and been square. Korpisalo folded in the playoffs last year when it mattered. He folds now when the games are tight.

He's not mentally strong, he has talent for sure but the most important part for a goalie is maintaining focus. He's weak in this regard.

Dude everyone agrees we should have kept Gus.

That doesn't change the fact that he wouldn't be propelling this team into a playoff position. There's a reason why every goalie that looks god awful on our team, switches teams and puts up very good numbers. It's because we are the worst f***ing defensive team in hockey. f***ing Cam Talbot put up his second worst career numbers on our team last year, marginally ahead of an Edmonton Oilers season where they've always had D issues. Goes to LA and all of a sudden, the guy is a stud.

We don't know how to play team defense. DJs 5 years of being the worst 5on5 team in hockey tells you bad it is. No current goalie in the NHL fixes that. The goalie argument is almost irrelevant until that gets resolved.

 

[NyQuil]

Dude everyone agrees we should have kept Gus.

That doesn't change the fact that he wouldn't be propelling this team into a playoff position. There's a reason why every goalie that looks god awful on our team, switches teams and puts up very good numbers. It's because we are the worst f***ing defensive team in hockey. f***ing Cam Talbot put up his second worst career numbers on our team last year, marginally ahead of an Edmonton Oilers season where they've always had D issues. Goes to LA and all of a sudden, the guy is a stud.

We don't know how to play team defense. DJs 5 years of being the worst 5on5 team in hockey tells you bad it is. No current goalie in the NHL fixes that. The goalie argument is almost irrelevant until that gets resolved.

There are so many aspects on the team to fix that no one solution will solve all the team’s issues.

The counter-argument is that a good goalie can help build confidence and mitigate those games where the team defence isn’t quite clicking.

I’m not the greatest prognosticator in the world but I was rightly concerned that Forsberg’s .917 covered up a lot of warts awhile back, and what might happen if those numbers dropped back down to Earth.

Compared with our rebuild competition (NJ, BUF, DET), we were the only ones with a goalie well above .900.

For the record, I do think that the team defence is the most glaring issue, but if there’s an opportunity to shore up the goalie position I think you have to take it.

 

[Micklebot]

Why is this the cost?! Players were protected for far less this time around. You had to make up an outrageous hypothetical to make a rebuttal. Followed by another personal attack. Sad.

The only sad thing here is your continued insistence that we somehow mismanaged Daccord, it's all revisionist crap to try and keep up the fantasy. Have fun with it Bert, double down and triple down every chance you get, we didn't pay an asset to protect a guy that was waived last year, total asset mismanagemt, right Bert? Got to find any way you can to spin this into a way to complain about Dorion, yep, something is sad Bert, but you'll need a mirror to see it.

 

[bert]

The only sad thing here is your continued insistence that we somehow mismanaged Daccord, it's all revisionist crap to try and keep up the fantasy. Have fun with it Bert, double down and triple down every chance you get, we didn't pay an asset to protect a guy that was waived last year, total asset mismanagemt, right Bert? Got to find any way you can to spin this into a way to complain about Dorion, yep, something is sad Bert, but you'll need a mirror to see it.

Its sad you had to make it personal and not keep it about the discussion. Typically a sign of a losing argument.

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

There are so many aspects on the team to fix that no one solution will solve all the team’s issues.

The counter-argument is that a good goalie can help build confidence and mitigate those games where the team defence isn’t quite clicking.

For the record, I do think that the team defence is the most glaring issue, but if there’s an opportunity to shore up the goalie position I think you have to take it.

I'm not disagreeing with you but here are the goalie stats:
Korpi goes from .915 to .889 in a year
Talbot goes from .911 to .898 (Ottawa) to .925 in back to back years
Gus goes from .892 to .931 in a year

We've tried 3 goalies, all of who have been successful immediately before or after the Ottawa tenure. The only thing that hadn't changed is our team defense. Can't blame the goalies anymore until something else actually changes.

 

[SensHulk]

Pretty sure Daccord went through waivers with the kraken and reported to their farm system. Sens could have easily just claimed him back

 

[Micklebot]

Pretty sure Daccord went through waivers with the kraken and reported to their farm system. Sens could have easily just claimed him back

They sure could have, but definitely was mismanaged when we didnt pay assets to protect him in the expansion draft...

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

the forsebrg .917 was vezina level goaltending.

expecting that from your non elite goalies and getting mad at them when they can't provide it is dumb.

you guys are talking about the goalies giving the team confidence? the team destroys the goalies confidence!

 

[NyQuil]

the forsebrg .917 was vezina level goaltending.

expecting that from your non elite goalies and getting mad at them when they can't provide it is dumb.

you guys are talking about the goalies giving the team confidence? the team destroys the goalies confidence!

And the goalie destroys the team’s confidence.

It’s a vicious cycle.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

They sure could have, but definitely was mismanaged when we didnt pay assets to protect him in the expansion draft...

I was hoping they'd pick him up off waivers .. but the timing wasn't great here.
Paying an asset ,in the Dorion era .... hmmm there are examples of worse use of assets . .. Don't know the cost of keeping him though but for sure there are examples where Dorion spent assets that I would consider worse

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

And the goalie destroys the team’s confidence.

It’s a vicious cycle.

what came first though?

and is it fair to just hold 1/2 players accountable for the team's mentality or the collective group of players who are making the job of those two impossible?

I mean this year the majority of the games that we have won are when our goalies had top 3 stars game.

basically if the goalies manage to steal the game we might win, if the goalies have even an average game we lose.

 

[DrEasy]

I was hoping they'd pick him up off waivers .. but the timing wasn't great here.
Paying an asset ,in the Dorion era .... hmmm there are examples of worse use of assets . .. Don't know the cost of keeping him though but for sure there are examples where Dorion spent assets that I would consider worse

Wouldn't have given up an asset to keep Daccord, but it was bizarre that a guy we clearly liked wasn't picked back up when he went on waivers. It's one thing to not have the scouts to find gems out there, but when it's our own gem...

Mind you, I don't know who we would have needed to remove to make room for him at the time.

 

[NyQuil]

what came first though?

and is it fair to just hold 1/2 players accountable for the team's mentality or the collective group of players who are making the job of those two impossible?

I mean this year the majority of the games that we have won are when our goalies had top 3 stars game.

basically if the goalies manage to steal the game we might win, if the goalies have even an average game we lose.

Again, this exercise in assigning blame is a difficult one because we are dealing with a lot of integrated parts, from the roster to the coaching to the leadership to the players and goalies themselves.

I think most people think that we leak too many shots and that we have too many turnovers in our own zone and that is probably the most glaring issue.

Team defence is a good label for it because it means everyone can ultimately do better.

How does that happen?

Personally I think it goes beyond replacing a few guys with a few other guys which is why the coaching comes into play, and it’s not going to be a quick and easy solution.

We’ve had what, one good line all year, in Grieg, Joseph and Tarasenko, and even that line might look artificially good because they weren’t together long enough due to injury and the sample is smaller.

However, I also don’t want to let the goalies off the hook because I’d be pretty surprised if they thought they couldn’t play any better also.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Wouldn't have given up an asset to keep Daccord, but it was bizarre that a guy we clearly liked wasn't picked back up when he went on waivers. It's one thing to not have the scouts to find gems out there, but when it's our own gem...

Yah but you need to be in a position to grab him off waivers and put him on the active roster.. so my memory does not work well enough to know who specifically Ottawa's goalies were at that moment but I suspect Dorion had us in a spot where claiming him was not a viable option.
I was likely quite wrong as it turns out but I wanted to keep Daccord over Gustaffson. I just loved his gamer attitude and he was really outstanding in Belleville. Either way Dorion's decision making is very questionable.

2nd for Stepan or 2nd to Keep Daccord ... again I could be wrong but I'd go with the latter

 

[Micklebot]

Wouldn't have given up an asset to keep Daccord, but it was bizarre that a guy we clearly liked wasn't picked back up when he went on waivers. It's one thing to not have the scouts to find gems out there, but when it's our own gem...

Mind you, I don't know who we would have needed to remove to make room for him at the time.

Would have meant waiving or trading one of Talbot or Forsberg.

I guess technically Talbot started the year on IR so we could have put off the decision 9 games, he was still on a very cheap deal so cap space was no issue,

The real issue is we'd just extended Forsberg , and acquired Talbot, so Dorion likely thought he'd figured out the net, or at least wasn't ready to look for a backup plan

 

[lang006]

Crazy the number of times our D had complete control of the puck and proceeded by simply giving it away without even being under pressure. Every one of them had at least one easy turnover. Sure, lack of options from our forwards is part of the problem, but the sense of panic is solely on the D.

Surely Brannstrom can play a better RD than Hamonic at the minimum?

Ultimately our wins and losses are positioning us correctly: we can keep up with the Sabres and the leafs, but the Devils and Canucks are in a different league right now. We should be able to beat the Flames, but not the Oilers.

Where you mention our D being under pressure, one thing I took notice of in the first was how hard the Canucks forecheckers were placing pressure on our D. (I assume its a tactic they use often or maybe just to exploit certain teams -- but I admittedly just haven't watched enough Canuck games to notice) Basically they would have F1 go hard at the Sens D with the puck and cause panic. At the same time the F2 would hang back just a little bit or start tracking closer to the passing option (normally the other Sens D) and go hard at them once a pass was attempted. Our D (as do others) often like to pass back and forth and/or eventually regroup behind the net to get more time and space to assess breakout options. Canucks knew that going in and took well advantage. You are correct, our forwards need to come back deep and provide more options when that is happening. By the time they started adjusting it was too late.

That all said, the bounces were exceptionally wild in that first period and definitely not in our favor. Ifs and or buts are candy or nuts, but If the points were covered better, a big save or two were made, maybe another shot block in there and then the comeback isn't exactly insurmountable. Following the first though its hard to say if we adjusted much other than compete a bit harder or if the Canucks just completely took foot off the gas. Probably combination of both.

Someone pointed out earlier that awful goal song. Reminds me of one the Habs used a few years ago. Some kind of annoying and obnoxious sounding. Song has been in my head all day today. If that is what they are going for then I guess it certainly does the job. LOL

 

[Answer]

I'm not disagreeing with you but here are the goalie stats:
Korpi goes from .915 to .889 in a year
Talbot goes from .911 to .898 (Ottawa) to .925 in back to back years
Gus goes from .892 to .931 in a year

We've tried 3 goalies, all of who have been successful immediately before or after the Ottawa tenure. The only thing that hadn't changed is our team defense. Can't blame the goalies anymore until something else actually changes.

It is easy to just keep blaming everything else. It keeps the attention away from the real culprits

Bad defensive structure, followed by lazy to bad defensive effort by the forwards, and lastly incompetent leadership and Captain who fails to take any accountability

 

[DueDiligence]

The core is just not that good. People expecting the team to compete were drinking the Dumb Dumb Dorion Koolaid. Some nice pieces for sure, but not the right composition.

It's interesting that the Sens problems remind me of the Leafs in many ways. Lots of talent upfront but problems with the D and in net. Now before anyone gets too excited yes the Leafs are better than the Sens being lead by a generational goal scorer and have more depth upfront. BUT they are similar in that both teams' construction are flawed and need to be changed in order to achieve real success. Toronto's superior talent and overall maturity allow them to do better in the regular season but when the going gets tougher they fall by the wayside. The Senators have less talent and need to play a more structured and disciplined game to achieve regular season success. But even if they do the Sens will need to make some significant tweaks to their roster to make gains in the playoffs.

 

[Cosmix]

We need better goaltending and NHL defense...big changes incoming

Better coaching too. I thought Jacques and Alfie would have changed things in our D zone by now. Not sure why they continue to allow this poor structure.

 

[NyQuil]

Better coaching too. I thought Jacques and Alfie would have changed things in our D zone by now. Not sure why they continue to allow this poor structure.

It's a lot to ask for a team to alter its structure or style (if that is indeed what is in progress) in the middle of the season against other teams that are more than comfortable with the way they are playing at this point.

Still better to start now than wait until the off-season as some posters suggested, as that would only delay this agonizing process.

 

[Cosmix]

I had a feeling they'd come out like this tonight.

This team lacks fight. They want it to be easy. Someone has to read them the riot act. Its unacceptable

You are obviously not in synch with the owner , POHO and GM who think what we need is "stability"!

This team lacks intelligent defensive play by many of its forwards and D. Yes, they lack fight too. I did not like how the team played under DJ and I feel the same about what we are seeing under Jacques. Jacques might not be up to the task at his age.