Orr Vs Gretzky

[RabbinsDuck]

Use the "not even close" **** again and you're getting ignored.
Like what part of Orr was a Dman and Gretzky was a center do you not understand here.
Taking a dman and a forward of equal offensive skill the Dman should roughly be about 2/3's the production of a forward due to the nature of the position.
Also, Orr's TWO Art Ross's as a Dman says he deserves to be in Gretzky's and Mario's class.
On top of this, any freaking person that saw both play will tell you in a heartbeat that while Gretzky was better offensively, Orr was not that far behind.

Put Orr at center, with zero defensive resposibilities, and he is still "not even close" to Gretzky offensively. He is not as good of a goal scorer and he is not as good of a playmaker.

Orr won 2 Art Rosses and 2 Harts.... compared to Gretzky's 9 Harts and 10 Art Rosses -- that easily qualifies as Orr was "not even close" to Gretzky offensively.
Neither was Lemeiux's 3 Harts and 6 Art Rosses.

Just because Orr scored 139 points as a defenseman does not mean he would score 200+ points as a forward.

Orr was the best though, he was the very best at playing offense and defense at the same time, something you continually fail to acknowledge.

I admit it. I even admit Orr's peak was higher than Gretzky's.
There is more to evaluating a hockey player than all-around play and peak, however.

As good a 2-way player as Dats is, he is not even in the same area code as Orr in that regard.

But he is certainly a better all-around player than Ovechkin and Crosby, just like Orr was better all-around than Gretzky. Is Datsyuk "better" than Ovechkin and Crosby?

Right, so you would rather have the player that gets 200 points but also allows 130 over the player that scores 140 points but only allows 60....gotcha

A forward ultimately is not "allowing" too many goals, is he?

Look man, it's pretty damned evident to me that you never saw Orr play because if you did, I guarantee you none of this "not even close" crap would be mentioned.

I have watched a lot of Orr's games, and he definitely was "not even close" to as talented offensively as Gretzky was.

I'm pretty much done here, I mean we're talking about Orr for pete's sake, the universally picked second best player and best Dman in history and somehow he's not even close.

I think you're just being ignorant and naive at this point to be honest.

Orr is not even close to Gretzky offensively, but he makes up a ton of ground defensively.

But ultimately offense is more valuable to the game of hockey.

No one because no one ever has except Orr himself!!!
This is the single biggest thing you have failed to understand throughout this thread.

Right, so how has Orr "revolutionized the sport" to such an important extent that few other than Mike Green plays like him today? Most elite defensemen today play the game more similar to Harvey than they do to Orr.

Patrick Roy "revolutionized" the sport more than Orr by bringing the butterfly position to the forefront. Today, virtually every single goalie plays butterfly to a large extent. Unless you want to argue Roy is better than Orr, "revolutionizing the sport" is ultimately pretty low on the totem pole versus actual player accomplishments.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Right, so how has Orr "revolutionized the sport" to such an important extent that few other than Mike Green plays like him today? Most elite defensemen today play the game more similar to Harvey than they do to Orr.

Patrick Roy "revolutionized" the sport more than Orr by bringing the butterfly position to the forefront. Today, virtually every single goalie plays butterfly to a large extent. Unless you want to argue Roy is better than Orr, "revolutionizing the sport" is ultimately pretty low on the totem pole in regards to actual player accomplishments.

I told you about the "not even close" crap so this will be my last response and the last post of yours I can view.

I will let others continue with you over ridiculous statements like Mike Green plays like Orr....joke!

I have been more than patient with you, acknowledging Gretzky's greatness only to deal with "not even close" in return, screw this.
/wave

 

[pluppe]

You misunderstood me again -- Gretzky was the best offensive player, period.... Orr was not even close. He may have been the best offensive defenseman ever, but he was utterly trounced by Gretzky in offense, and by several other players.


Precisely because Orr never dominated the game defensively like Harvey is why Harvey was better defensively.... it doesn't mean Orr was not good or even great, defensively, but he was never the best, like Gretzky.

Datsyuk dominates both sides of the ice to a greater degree than anyone in the NHL... does that mean he is better than Crosby and Ovechkin?


I agree, and it's why I will forever rank Orr higher than Lemeiuex... but not even the best defense in the world is worth a player literally scoring 60-90 pts extra every single year during the regular season and 20 more points in the playoffs -- and still scoring 120-160 pts in seasons after the other was pretty much out of the game.


No, offense is worth more than 50% of the game.

really? several players utterly trounces Orr offesively?

how many is several and who might they be?

 

[RabbinsDuck]

really? several players utterly trounces Orr offesively?

how many is several and who might they be?

Without even adjusting points, Gretzky is first overall in first 10 seasons with 1,837 pts in 774 games -- Orr is 17th with 888 pts in 631 games.

Adjusting for eras would help a lot of other players surpass Orr offensively as well, like Hull, Morenz, Mikita, Howe and other earlier greats.

 

[pluppe]

Without even adjusting points, Gretzky is first overall in first 10 seasons with 1,837 pts in 774 games -- Orr is 17th with 888 pts in 631 games.

Adjusting for eras would help a lot of other players surpass Orr offensively as well, like Hull, Morenz, Mikita, Howe and other earlier greats.

ah, you meant in the way that Ron Duguay and Mel Bridgeman trounces Niklas Lidström Offensively?

got it!

 

[bleeney]

By 1974, the Flyers did figure out how to deal with it - dump the puck into Orr's corner on purpose and pressure him and hit him before he got a chance to get going.
On the other hand, I don't think anyone figured out a way to deal with prime Gretzky in the playoffs.

For me, this is a huge point in Gretzky's favor.

On the other hand, Orr did change the way the game was played more than Gretzky, revolutionizing the way defensemen could play, leading to the great generation of offensive defensemen in the 1980s. This is a huge point in Orr's favor.

Yeah, that was a different tactic, for sure. But was it really that effective?

Playing against Bernie Parent, who turned in a Conn Smythe winning performance reminiscent of Roy in '86 (as in, he was practically unbeatable. He held Espo to just three points), Orr still led all players from both teams in scoring. This was despite being deliberately targeted and assaulted by the Broad Street Bullies with elbows, sticks, knees, charges etc., as well as the constant hooking and holding. It was a brutally violent era, where the Flyers made blatant intimidation the tactic upon which they built their entire game around. It was so bad, players were known to come down with "The Philadelphia Flu" to avoid facing them. It was ugly hockey. And Shero's game plan was to direct that bullying tactic specifically on Orr.

There was no instigator rule to protect guys like Orr, so he had to deal with it. And as a Dman, he had no option. His job was to break up plays and take control of the puck in his own end, enduring the forechecking of a bunch of lunatics.

"And being the Flyers, the Broad Street Bullies, they also put a licking on Orr. If there was a chance to pound him into the boards, or knock him to the ice, they'd take advantage every time. "They had Orr, and he can do an awful lot," Shero would explain later. "But we've got seventeen good hockey players and every one of them put out. It was seventeen against one."

The Bruins were also a tough team, but not like that. The Flyers' thugs used to gang up on players, particularly star players. Hell, I remember the treatment Borje Salming got. It was brutal. And if you did fight back, they'd pour over the boards and it was no-holds-barred. In game two of the series, O'Reilly got into a fight with Schultz, and Schultz head-butted him square in the face. As I said, it was ugly stuff.

Had Orr played Gretzky's type of game (darting in and out of traffic) the Bruins would've been eaten alive. Orr had to play in heavy traffic, where it became a constant man-against-man (or more accurately, against the Flyers, it was man-against-men) battle. He didn't have the option of a Gretzky type of game, merely using his anticipation and creating turnovers in the neutral zone by heading to where the puck was going to be. He had to be in the thick of it, in the trenches. Despite fighting through all of that, and then facing Parent, the best goalie in hockey, turning in a performance that won him the Conn Smythe trophy, Orr was still the leading scorer in the series. Orr had 3G, 4A, for 7 Pts in 6 games. (Against the Smythe-winning Patrick Roy in the '93 finals, Gretzky, a centre, had 6 points in 5 games).

After the final game, Orr went into the Flyers room to congratulate Joe Watson, who was Orr's roommate during his rookie season. Watson offered him some champagne:
"No thanks, I don't deserve it" was Orr's reply.
"Can you believe it" Watson said later. "If anybody deserved anything, it was him. My goodness gracious, he's their leader. He was carrying the puck into our end all afternoon. He doesn't have to be dejected the way he played. My goodness gracious, whatta player!"
-see Searching for Bobby Orr; pg 254-257

 

[Rhiessan71]

All I know is that if you take Getzky's best season of 215 and Orr's best season of 139....


Forwards:
Gretzky 215
Lemieux 199 (93%)
Yzerman 155 (72%)
Esposito 152 (71%)
Nicholls 150 (70%)

Dmen:
Orr 139
Coffey 138 (99%)
MacInnis 103 (74%)
Leetch 102 (73%)
Potvin 101 (73%)


I don't know about the rest of you but it sure looks like Orr is almost as far out in front of anyone else at his position offensively as Gretzky is at his.

Another interesting note is that only Mario has scored more points than Gretzky has gotten assists in a season, it should also be noted that only two other Dmen have gotten more points than Orr had assists in a season as well.

Interesting eh.

 

[Scott1980]

Yeah, that was a different tactic, for sure. But was it really that effective?

Playing against Bernie Parent, who turned in a Conn Smythe winning performance reminiscent of Roy in '86 (as in, he was practically unbeatable. He held Espo to just three points), Orr still led all players from both teams in scoring. This was despite being deliberately targeted and assaulted by the Broad Street Bullies with elbows, sticks, knees, charges etc., as well as the constant hooking and holding. It was a brutally violent era, where the Flyers made blatant intimidation the tactic upon which they built their entire game around. It was so bad, players were known to come down with "The Philadelphia Flu" to avoid facing them. It was ugly hockey. And Shero's game plan was to direct that bullying tactic specifically on Orr.

There was no instigator rule to protect guys like Orr, so he had to deal with it. And as a Dman, he had no option. His job was to break up plays and take control of the puck in his own end, enduring the forechecking of a bunch of lunatics.

"And being the Flyers, the Broad Street Bullies, they also put a licking on Orr. If there was a chance to pound him into the boards, or knock him to the ice, they'd take advantage every time. "They had Orr, and he can do an awful lot," Shero would explain later. "But we've got seventeen good hockey players and every one of them put out. It was seventeen against one."

The Bruins were also a tough team, but not like that. The Flyers' thugs used to gang up on players, particularly star players. Hell, I remember the treatment Borje Salming got. It was brutal. And if you did fight back, they'd pour over the boards and it was no-holds-barred. In game two of the series, O'Reilly got into a fight with Schultz, and Schultz head-butted him square in the face. As I said, it was ugly stuff.

Had Orr played Gretzky's type of game (darting in and out of traffic) the Bruins would've been eaten alive. Orr had to play in heavy traffic, where it became a constant man-against-man (or more accurately, against the Flyers, it was man-against-men) battle. He didn't have the option of a Gretzky type of game, merely using his anticipation and creating turnovers in the neutral zone by heading to where the puck was going to be. He had to be in the thick of it, in the trenches. Despite fighting through all of that, and then facing Parent, the best goalie in hockey, turning in a performance that won him the Conn Smythe trophy, Orr was still the leading scorer in the series. Orr had 3G, 4A, for 7 Pts in 6 games. (Against the Smythe-winning Patrick Roy in the '93 finals, Gretzky, a centre, had 6 points in 5 games).

After the final game, Orr went into the Flyers room to congratulate Joe Watson, who was Orr's roommate during his rookie season. Watson offered him some champagne:
"No thanks, I don't deserve it" was Orr's reply.
"Can you believe it" Watson said later. "If anybody deserved anything, it was him. My goodness gracious, he's their leader. He was carrying the puck into our end all afternoon. He doesn't have to be dejected the way he played. My goodness gracious, whatta player!"
-see Searching for Bobby Orr; pg 254-257

Gretzky got 7 points, actually in the '93 SCF. Plus 11 points (9 assists) against Smythe winner Hextall in '87. In '84 he got 4 goals and 3 assists for 7 points, while Smythe award winner Messier got 3 goals and 1 assist. Huh? Wayne was robbed there!

In '83 against Billy Smith, Gretzky got 4 points because of the "easy treatment". The Islanders declared open season on Wayne in that final, as I recall. Smith slashed Gretzky with his stick in game 2, and then Trottier slashed Gretzky in game 4 as Gretzky made a beautiful pass for an Oiler goal!

'93 Gretzky showed he could carry any team. My, my. Here's a guy who had some really painfull surgery in the fall and everyone was counting out. Comes back for the playoffs and gets 40 points in 24 games, carries the Kings through THREE tough long series, and then leads ALL players in points in the SCF. Desjardin leads the Habs with 4 points against average Kelly Hrudey.

I've watched game 2 of 1974. Yeah, it was ugly, but you honestly got the feeling that the Bruins, if needs be, could fight back and more than hold their own. O'Reilly got right back up after that fight and slammed big Schultz against the ice.


Before that, The Hammer took on Smith


Then Kindi and Savy


Then it was Kindi and Gilly with Cashman as the third man in


Finally, we had Saleski and Savy


Games 1, 3 and 6 were fairly clean in that series. The only real incident in game 6 was the scrum in which the Flyers, after hitting the goalpost, started a melee. Clarke started punching Orr and Orr hit back. They both ended up getting minors.

Van Impe and Cashman got into a fight in game 1, other than that, nothing much.

It was games 4 and 5 that were the worst.

Game 4, Andre Savard seemed to get the worst of it for the Bruins, getting into a fight yet actually salvaging a draw against Kindi. Cashman then got the better of Watson. O'Reilly fought Schultz to a draw and following a Smith/Saleski roughing incident, Savard and Schultz got into pleanantries.

Game 5, interestingly, the Bruins beat the Flyers in every way shape or form. Goals, fights, ALL went the Bruins way.

 

[BraveCanadian]

All I know is that if you take Getzky's best season of 215 and Orr's best season of 139....


Forwards:
Gretzky 215
Lemieux 199 (93%)
Yzerman 155 (72%)
Esposito 152 (71%)
Nicholls 150 (70%)

Dmen:
Orr 139
Coffey 138 (99%)
MacInnis 103 (74%)
Leetch 102 (73%)
Potvin 101 (73%)


I don't know about the rest of you but it sure looks like Orr is almost as far out in front of anyone else at his position offensively as Gretzky is at his.

Now try second best seasons, or third or fourth..

 

[habsjunkie2*]

Now try second best seasons, or third or fourth..

He might not want to go there.

 

[bleeney]

Gretzky got 7 points, actually in the '93 SCF. Plus 11 points (9 assists) against Smythe winner Hextall in '87. In '84 he got 4 goals and 3 assists for 7 points, while Smythe award winner Messier got 3 goals and 1 assist. Huh? Wayne was robbed there!

In '83 against Billy Smith, Gretzky got 4 points because of the "easy treatment". The Islanders declared open season on Wayne in that final, as I recall. Smith slashed Gretzky with his stick in game 2, and then Trottier slashed Gretzky in game 4 as Gretzky made a beautiful pass for an Oiler goal!

'93 Gretzky showed he could carry any team. My, my. Here's a guy who had some really painfull surgery in the fall and everyone was counting out. Comes back for the playoffs and gets 40 points in 24 games, carries the Kings through THREE tough long series, and then leads ALL players in points in the SCF. Desjardin leads the Habs with 4 points against average Kelly Hrudey.

I've watched game 2 of 1974. Yeah, it was ugly, but you honestly got the feeling that the Bruins, if needs be, could fight back and more than hold their own. O'Reilly got right back up after that fight and slammed big Schultz against the ice.


Before that, The Hammer took on Smith


Then Kindi and Savy


Then it was Kindi and Gilly with Cashman as the third man in


Finally, we had Saleski and Savy


Games 1, 3 and 6 were fairly clean in that series. The only real incident in game 6 was the scrum in which the Flyers, after hitting the goalpost, started a melee. Clarke started punching Orr and Orr hit back. They both ended up getting minors.

Van Impe and Cashman got into a fight in game 1, other than that, nothing much.

It was games 4 and 5 that were the worst.

Game 4, Andre Savard seemed to get the worst of it for the Bruins, getting into a fight yet actually salvaging a draw against Kindi. Cashman then got the better of Watson. O'Reilly fought Schultz to a draw and following a Smith/Saleski roughing incident, Savard and Schultz got into pleanantries.

Game 5, interestingly, the Bruins beat the Flyers in every way shape or form. Goals, fights, ALL went the Bruins way.

Thanks for your response. You're right about '93; it was 7 points, not 6. I did a quick tally and missed a point.

But that's a moot point. I was merely poining out that Orr played his best against the best:

*His 7 points in 6 games vs. Parent (Smythe winner) in the '74 finals, led all players from both teams
*Against Dryden (Smythe winner) in '71, he led the Bruins with 5G, 7A, 12Pts in 7 games
*In the '70 playoffs, he had 7G, 3A, 10 Pts in 6 games vs. Giacoman and the NYR
*In the '70 playoffs he had 1G, 4A, 5Pts in 4 games vs. Tony O. and the BlackHawks
*In the '72 finals he had 4G, 4A, 8Pts in 6 games vs. Giacoman and the NYR (plus got into a fight with Brad Park in game four)
*In the '74 playoffs vs. Tony O, he had 7 assists in 6 games.

Against the best teams he faced in the playoffs, with HOF goalies, Orr had 20G, 29A, for 49Pts in 35 games (1.4 points-per-game). That is remarkably consistent with his career rate of production in the playoffs (92 points in 72 games, or 1.28 ppg). Actually, it's above it. Orr literally stepped up his game when facing the very best. No matter what they tried, they couldn't stop him.

Did facing top defensive teams with great goaltending have any effect on Gretzky's production?

*In the '83 playoffs, he had a combined 12G, 26A for 38Pts in 16 games (2.375 ppg) against the Jets, Flames and Hawks. Against Billy Smith and the NYI in the finals, he had 0G, 4A for 4Pts (1.0 ppg).
*In the '84 playoffs, he had a combined 9G, 20A, for 29Pts in 14 games (2.07 ppg) against the Jets, Flames and North Stars. Against Billy Smith and the NYI in the finals, he had 4G, 2A in 5 games (1.25 ppg).
*In the '85 playoffs, against the Kings, Jets and Hawks, he had a combined 10G, 26A for 36Pts in 13 games (2.77 ppg). Against Lindbergh and the Flyers, he had an unreal 7G, 4A for 11Pts in just 5 games (2.2 ppg)

These are astonishing numbers. But the fact remains that Gretzky feasted against lesser teams, and sometimes, when he faced the very best, there was a marked difference in his production compared to when he played teams like the Kings or North Stars. I'm not saying every great team was able to slow him down like that (he shredded the Habs in '81, with 11 points in 3 games). But it did happen. Particularly against the NYI.

There was no such difference with Orr. He didn't pad his numbers against the weak sisters. This was partly because of his knees; he didn't push himself unless he had to, so if the game was well in hand he'd lay back a lot more. Some of it was because he was notorious for passing off the puck to lesser teammates if the game was in the bag. This trait of his went right back to his junior days. Gretzky on the other hand, played all out, all the time. Such as:

*getting 4G, 3A in a 10-2 drubbing of the Flames (April 17, '83)
*getting 1G, 6A in a 13-3 trouncing of the Kings (April 9, '87)
*getting 1G, 4A in an 8-4 win over the Hawks (April 24, '83) all of his points coming on the Oilers last 5 goals

When the Bruins faced weaker teams in the playoffs, Orr didn't pile on the points a la Gretzky. Look at Orr's numbers during their playoff routs:

*Orr had only 1A in a 7-0 win over the Leafs (April 3, '69)
*Orr had just 2A in a 10-2 win over the Blues (April 20, '72)
*Orr had just 1A in a 7-2 pounding of the Blues (April 23, '72)

This isn't meant to be a criticism of either player. It's just an observation; one that has to be considered when people point out Gretzky's overwhelming offensive stats, particularly compared to Orr's. Gretzky padded his numbers by frequently pouring it on against weak teams. Again, I'm not being critical of him. He went all out, all the time. Is that wrong? No! And I'm not being critical of Orr for not going all out, all the time. If the game was already won, he'd lay back and try to conserve his battered knees, and help his lesser teammates (who were not rich by any stretch of the imagination) pad their numbers to get their much-needed bonuses. Is that wrong? No!

They were just two completely different players. Different styles. Different mentality.

The only time Orr was really contained was in the '72-73 playoffs against the Rangers, when he had 2 points in 5 games. But that year was an off year for Orr and for the Bruins in general. They'd lost a quarter of their team to the WHA and through the expansion draft. Espo blew his knee out early in game two and was lost for the playoffs. And Orr was not 100% either. Those such as myself who watched him during this time could not help but notice that he was not the same player after his major knee surgery in '72. It not only kept him out of the series against the Russians, it hampered him all year long:

"Before the 1972-72 season began, Orr had an operation on one of his bad knees. He returned for the 1972-73 campaign a slower skater than before...
"Like many Orr-watchers, Park noticed the change in Bobby's style. And once again, he couldn't keep his mouth shut. "Last year," he said, "when Bobby hit our blueline he was accelerating. Now he's just moving regularly when he hits the line. What that means is that we-the defensemen-can angle Orr against the boards because he does not have the spurt to go around us."
-from Hockey's Greatest Rivalries by Stan Fischler; pg 57

As for the '74 series with the Flyers, I never claimed that there were a lot of fights in that series. I was merely pointing out that the Flyers were a team of thugs, who took violence to a cartoonish level. And that Shero devised a tactic of dumping the puck into Orr's corner and hammering him whenever possible. This was done to stop him from carrying the puck up the ice before he even got started. But even that didn't stop him. As Joe Watson said in the locker room after the final game: "He was carrying the puck into our end all afternoon. He doesn't have to be dejected the way he played. My goodness gracious, whatta player!"

 

[Rhiessan71]

He might not want to go there.

I don't need to, it drops off the same for the forwards and the Dmen while Gretzky and Orr remain close to the same. Of course Gretzky's list is going to be longer since Orr retired just as he was hitting his prime, his last full season being all of 27 years old, his second Art Ross as well.
I mean hell, even in Orr's 2nd, 3rd and 4th best seasons, he still had almost as many assists as all but a handful of Dmen have even had points.

Doesn't matter though as the point I was making was that both Gretzky and Orr represent the upper limit of possible offense at their respective positions.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I don't need to, it drops off the same for the forwards and the Dmen while Gretzky and Orr remain close to the same. .

Actually it doesn't.. as soon as you remove the top career years from Lemieux, Espo, Yzerman, Nicholls.. Gretzky immediately opens up a huge margin that he doesn't let up.

Coffey stays in reasonable distance of Orr offensively.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Actually it doesn't.. as soon as you remove the top career years from Lemieux, Espo, Yzerman, Nicholls.. Gretzky immediately opens up a huge margin that he doesn't let up.

Coffey stays in reasonable distance of Orr offensively.

...and Coffey is actually playing with Gretzky while he's doing that unless of course you consider Coffey a 140 point dman without Gretzky and you know he isn't.

Also Lemieux's 161 point season was done in only 70 games and his 160 point season was in only 60 games.
So what he actually finished the season at doesn't matter in that he was indeed matching a Gretzky level of offensive production.
The 160 in 60 was actually greater than Gretzky and is to this day, the highest point per game season in history.
188 and 224 point paces respectively.

 

[canucks4ever]

Coffey is still behind orr in terms of top 10 scoring finishes. Orr finished 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, and 1st during his years. Coffey is clearly behind that and he needed wayne and mario.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Against the best teams he faced in the playoffs, with HOF goalies, Orr had 20G, 29A, for 49Pts in 35 games (1.4 points-per-game). That is remarkably consistent with his career rate of production in the playoffs (92 points in 72 games, or 1.28 ppg). Actually, it's above it. Orr literally stepped up his game when facing the very best. No matter what they tried, they couldn't stop him.

Orr only played 74 playoff games.. are you saying that half the games he played were against the "best" teams with HOF goalies who were still playing like HOF goalies?

Virtually every year he was in the playoffs, Orr's team was the best regular season team. In 71 his team was freakish outlier good and they lost in the first round.

The "best" teams Orr was facing is apples and oranges compared to the team you bring Gretzky down for not dominating.

When did Orr face a 4 time straight winner and 5 time straight finalist like the NYI you take Gretzky down for learning against one year and defeating the next?

Probably the best team he played against was the Flyers who won back to back and they contained and beat him very similarly to how the Isles contained Gretzky the first time.

 

[BraveCanadian]

...and Coffey is actually playing with Gretzky while he's doing that unless of course you consider Coffey a 140 point dman without Gretzky and you know he isn't.

Also Lemieux's 161 point season was done in only 70 games and his 160 point season was in only 60 games.
So what he actually finished the season at doesn't matter in that he was indeed matching a Gretzky level of offensive production.
The 160 in 60 was actually greater than Gretzky and is to this day, the highest point per game season in history.
188 and 224 point paces respectively.

All beside the point though because he was hurt and we'll never know.

And Orr played with Espo.. and he wouldn't have been a 140 point dman without him either.

 

[Rhiessan71]

All beside the point though because he was hurt and we'll never know.

And Orr played with Espo.. and he wouldn't have been a 140 point dman without him either.

...and Gretzky isn't a 200 point scorer without Coffey either, round and round we go.

 

[BraveCanadian]

...and Gretzky isn't a 200 point scorer without Coffey either, round and round we go.

I've already admitted that several times much to the chagrin of the "superstars aren't affected by teammates" faithful.

The point is that Gretzky is way way out there in front offensively. It isn't even debatable. The guy has more assists than anyone in history has points. Then add in he has the most goals ever too.

Orr is a more complete player for sure.. and who is the better overall player between Orr and Gretzky is (obviously) debatable.. but it simply shouldn't even be up for discussion that Gretzky is the #1 end all and be all for offense in the history of the NHL.

 

[Dark Shadows]

...and Coffey is actually playing with Gretzky while he's doing that unless of course you consider Coffey a 140 point dman without Gretzky and you know he isn't.

Also Lemieux's 161 point season was done in only 70 games and his 160 point season was in only 60 games.
So what he actually finished the season at doesn't matter in that he was indeed matching a Gretzky level of offensive production.
The 160 in 60 was actually greater than Gretzky and is to this day, the highest point per game season in history.
188 and 224 point paces respectively.

Incorrect.
Gretzky's 83-84 season was the highest PPG in history. 205 points in 74 games.

But overall, Yes Coffey is still a head below Orr offensively

 

[canucks4ever]

I've already admitted that several times much to the chagrin of the "superstars aren't affected by teammates" faithful.

The point is that Gretzky is way way out there in front offensively. It isn't even debatable. The guy has more assists than anyone in history has points. Then add in he has the most goals ever too.

Orr is a more complete player for sure.. and who is the better overall player between Orr and Gretzky is (obviously) debatable.. but it simply shouldn't even be up for discussion that Gretzky is the #1 end all and be all for offense in the history of the NHL.

Gordie Howe is pretty close to gretzky in terms of offense, 20 straight years as a top 5 scorer. Not to mention that he played his whole career in the defense-first original 6 era.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Gordie Howe is pretty close to gretzky in terms of offense, 20 straight years as a top 5 scorer. Not to mention that he played his whole career in the defense-first original 6 era.

He is king for longevity but he's no where near Gretzky's level of separation from the rest of the league.

 

[canucks4ever]

He is king for longevity but he's no where near Gretzky's level of separation from the rest of the league.

Gretzky had better offense, but gordie howe does have a season where he won the art ross by over 25%, I believe it is the year where he put up 95 points and second place was 71 points, that;a big gap.

The gap between gretzky and howe is much smaller than orr and coffey. Bobby Orr was on rocket richard-jagr level of offense, while coffey was more of a steve yzerman.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Gretzky had better offense, but gordie howe does have a season where he won the art ross by over 25%, I believe it is the year where he put up 95 points and second place was 71 points, that;a big gap.

The gap between gretzky and howe is much smaller than orr and coffey. Bobby Orr was on rocket richard-jagr level of offense, while coffey was more of a steve yzerman.

Gretzky won scoring titles by a gap almost as much as Howe scored that whole season. It really isn't close.. Gretzky was so far out in front of the league in his prime it was like Einstein teaching grade school science.

Coffey was really only a notch below Orr offensively.. in his prime he regularly was compared to and did beat Orr's record for goals in a season and Coffey also is the top playoff scoring defenseman.

He's only a notch below him overall for offense.. Orr is just much better defensively at the same time which makes him so special.

 

[Rhiessan71]

I've already admitted that several times much to the chagrin of the "superstars aren't affected by teammates" faithful.

The point is that Gretzky is way way out there in front offensively. It isn't even debatable. The guy has more assists than anyone in history has points. Then add in he has the most goals ever too.

Orr is a more complete player for sure.. and who is the better overall player between Orr and Gretzky is (obviously) debatable.. but it simply shouldn't even be up for discussion that Gretzky is the #1 end all and be all for offense in the history of the NHL.

...and I say Orr was almost as gifted offensively as a dman as Greztky was as a center.
The only reason there is such a gap is because we're comparing a forward to a dman in the first place.
Make Orr a forward and watch his points sky rocket.
Make Gretzky a dman and watch his points plummet, I mean he sure as hell wouldn't be able to hang out down low or behind the net as a Dman while Orr would as a forward.

As I said before, Orr put up his numbers while playing a more than solid defensive game as well.
Coffey was only able to keep pace with Orr by playing with Gretzky, playing on the highest scoring team in history, playing in the most offesive system in history, playing in the highest scoring era in history and by playing all out offensively without much regard for defense.

To say Coffey was only a notch below Orr offensively is ridiculous considering Orr still devoted a great deal of time and energy to playing defense.