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Ontario Reign 21-22 : I'm only happy when it Reigns

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apocalypse said:
sam steel maybe? and because you're trolling?
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If I was a Ducks fan, Sam Steel would be the guy to model my username after? I'd definitely think up a better player to whom I should pay my respect.

Trolling? I was calling out that clown (whatever his name is) for his absurd take on Byfield. My entire argument is based on age/production/developing at a time more difficult than before etc.. basically saying his entire take on Byfield is garbage.

So where sir, is the trolling coming from on my end?
 
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staveNsteel said:
First off, they're all prospects, and prospects all take different lengths of time to reach their potential. Not all kids come in at 18 and set the world on fire.. it's far more rare than not.

Secondly, Byfield was drafted in a year where the NHL had to adapt, players had to adapt, and really, he has been unable to play a full set of games because of it. I don't know what you were watching last season, but he was pretty damn impressive in Ontario as the youngest player in the entire league.

The kid just turned 19, four months ago.. let that sink in.. just turned 19.. has an AHL season under his belt, got into a handful of NHL games, and has rehabbed back from an ankle injury.

You're very much a, "what have you done for me lately" type.

Here's the deal.. when Byfield finally does get going, gets comfortable again, maybe 10-15 games.. eventually gets to the show again, and finally, begins to display that talent at the NHL level.. don't sit there and enjoy the production.. don't call yourself a Byfield fan after that.. remember that you essentially gave up on him from the very beginning, and go watch Ottawa, go watch Stuetzle and enjoy whatever it is he's doing, good or bad.

Those of us that understand how prospects work, and have actual knowledge of how to watch a ayer develop, we'll sit there and say hello as we enjoy the many years of Byfield in LA.
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Thank you for this Steel.

I already have a 55 Kings jersey...awaiting the domination!
 
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cyclones22 said:
This organization really knows how to develop first liners in the AHL.
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I know this was tongue-in-cheek but it's unsurprising really as the Kings have always been good at getting solid players in the later rounds. Mersch and Brodzinski were 4th and 5th rounders, and Rempal was undrafted. A lot of guys in that range don't have much of a ceiling. Can't really take credit for the other two though as they came up in other orgs.

The biggest problem with the Kings and forwards is they traditionally target D when they have the highest picks. Going back to the 2000 draft, here is a list of first round forwards:

Frolov (20) - great
Karlsson (18) - bust
Steckel (30) - solid career
Brown (13) - great
Boyle (26) - solid career
Tukonen (11) - bust
Kopitar (11) - HOF'er
Lewis (17) - solid career
Schenn (5) - great
Pearson - (30) - solid career
Kempe - (30)
Vilardi (11)
Turcotte (5)
Byfield (2)

Only one of those picks prior to 2019, Schenn, was in the top 10. They've gotten good to great value in the last half of the first round, as good as any other franchise. But it's unsurprising they haven't developed a bunch of star forwards when you have taken a forward with a top 10 pick only 5 times since 1988. The pick that bothered me the most was Hickey. He turned out OK for his draft I guess, but if there was ever a draft to take a chance on a forward, it was 2007. Lots of boom/bust forwards in that draft.

Taking a positive from their futility with forwards: not having a first round draft pick is common for this franchise, and that led to nothing over the years. Schenn was the most recent top pick sans the last couple years, and he was traded to build a cup winner. Before that, Gelinas was traded to bring Gretzky here, which ultimately led to a finals appearance. The only other top 10 pick was Jokinen, which brought us Palffy. Had injuries not derailed that squad they could have went deeper as well. When we do take forwards in the top 10, good things seem to happen.
 
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Fishhead said:
I know this was tongue-in-cheek but it's unsurprising really as the Kings have always been good at getting solid players in the later rounds. Mersch and Brodzinski were 4th and 5th rounders, and Rempal was undrafted. A lot of guys in that range don't have much of a ceiling. Can't really take credit for the other two though as they came up in other orgs.

The biggest problem with the Kings and forwards is they traditionally target D when they have the highest picks. Going back to the 2000 draft, here is a list of first round forwards:

Frolov (20) - great
Karlsson (18) - bust
Steckel (30) - solid career
Brown (13) - great
Boyle (26) - solid career
Tukonen (11) - bust
Kopitar (11) - HOF'er
Lewis (17) - solid career
Schenn (5) - great
Pearson - (30) - solid career
Kempe - (30)
Vilardi (11)
Turcotte (5)
Byfield (2)

Only one of those picks prior to 2019, Schenn, was in the top 10. They've gotten good to great value in the last half of the first round, as good as any other franchise. But it's unsurprising they haven't developed a bunch of star forwards when you have taken a forward with a top 10 pick only 5 times since 1988. The pick that bothered me the most was Hickey. He turned out OK for his draft I guess, but if there was ever a draft to take a chance on a forward, it was 2007. Lots of boom/bust forwards in that draft.

Taking a positive from their futility with forwards: not having a first round draft pick is common for this franchise, and that led to nothing over the years. Schenn was the most recent top pick sans the last couple years, and he was traded to build a cup winner. Before that, Gelinas was traded to bring Gretzky here, which ultimately led to a finals appearance. The only other top 10 pick was Jokinen, which brought us Palffy. Had injuries not derailed that squad they could have went deeper as well. When we do take forwards in the top 10, good things seem to happen.
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The funny thing is, from 2005 - 2019, the Kings have taken a forward first 8 times, defense 5 times, and goalie first 2 times.

A d-man was taken with a top-10 pick 4 times since 1988, compared to 5 forwards.

The Kings have had more opportunity to take more talented forwards, taking more forwards.

There is this ongoing narrative that the Kings haven't drafted the talent up front. Yet... they've made it work at the blueline.
 
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Yeah first round picks have been average at best for the Kings, but they are actually better with forwards than D early. They excel with developing later pick defensemen. That's a lot easier to do, of course, since in general D develop slower than forwards and aren't as visible in juniors/college. But they are definitely one of the best at it.

Their prowess in finding late defensemen does distract from the fact that they've done a whole lot better with forwards in the first round for quite some time. Doughty is the only top pairing guy they've taken in the first round since probably Sydor back in '90. Over that time they've picked a good amount of all-star forwards. The Kings in general didn't start developing their own players until DL took over, the drafting run from 2003-2010 was damn good, probably top 3 in the league at the time. They have that kind of pool right now, we will see if they squander it.
 
Fishhead said:
Yeah first round picks have been average at best for the Kings, but they are actually better with forwards than D early. They excel with developing later pick defensemen. That's a lot easier to do, of course, since in general D develop slower than forwards and aren't as visible in juniors/college. But they are definitely one of the best at it.

Their prowess in finding late defensemen does distract from the fact that they've done a whole lot better with forwards in the first round for quite some time. Doughty is the only top pairing guy they've taken in the first round since probably Sydor back in '90. Over that time they've picked a good amount of all-star forwards. The Kings in general didn't start developing their own players until DL took over, the drafting run from 2003-2010 was damn good, probably top 3 in the league at the time. They have that kind of pool right now, we will see if they squander it.
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I think you’re overlapping DT and DL with that draft run..
 
kings11 said:
I think you’re overlapping DT and DL with that draft run..
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Yeah they do overlap, I wasn't really lumping drafting and development together there. DT did a solid job drafting right at the end of his tenure, grabbing Kopitar and Quick in the 2005 draft. I went back to 2003 because Brown had such an impact, but really DT could have done a bit better in 2003 with 3 1sts. 2004 was one of the worst drafts in Kings history - not even 100 NHL games played from all those players. Having DL take over when he did ended up being a gold strike.

Kopitar was so good it didn't matter much, but Quick and Brown excelled under the DL regime. I've always believed that Brown wouldn't be who he is without the lockout, it did wonders for Brown because it forced him down to Manchester to develop. After going down he came back a completely different player, and that's something I don't think happens under the Taylor group. Once DL took over the next year and money started getting dumped into infrastructure and development the focus completely changed. Quick certainly doesn't end up who he is without Ranford being brought in along with DL's high expectations of professionalism. Most importantly, none of them were traded. A month before he was fired DT traded Grebeshkov, taken a year before Brown, in the Parrish/Sopel mess, they just had no patience.
 
I don’t get to watch the games but has Byfield looked dominate in his games? I know he is working his way back to playing shape but I have a Sharks fan friend who has watched a couple of his games live lately. He says aside from being physically bigger, he was mostly invisible. Get the feeling he is trolling in his assessment but was wondering what regular fans had to say.
 
LAKings88 said:
I don’t get to watch the games but has Byfield looked dominate in his games? I know he is working his way back to playing shape but I have a Sharks fan friend who has watched a couple of his games live lately. He says aside from being physically bigger, he was mostly invisible. Get the feeling he is trolling in his assessment but was wondering what regular fans had to say.
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He’s trolling. He’s been decent.
 
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LAKings88 said:
I don’t get to watch the games but has Byfield looked dominate in his games? I know he is working his way back to playing shape but I have a Sharks fan friend who has watched a couple of his games live lately. He says aside from being physically bigger, he was mostly invisible. Get the feeling he is trolling in his assessment but was wondering what regular fans had to say.
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Byfield has looked dominant as has Turcotte but they aren’t racking up points.. so they’re busts!
 
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I really started following the Kings around 2006. Before that I would watch games and stats but I wasn't really following draft picks or prospect development. I didn't really appreciate how awesome Kopitar and Brown were — young guys stepping in and putting up lots of points.

I hope I get to see a Kings forward prospect step into the AHL or NHL and just light up the league some day.
 
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Yog S'loth said:
To be fair, some of you guys have a different definition of the word "dominant" than the one I'm used to.
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I’d be inclined to agree here.

You can be playing great hockey without affecting the score sheet, but “dominant” requires some level of score sheet stimulus.
 
Deaders Ghost said:
I’d be inclined to agree here.

You can be playing great hockey without affecting the score sheet, but “dominant” requires some level of score sheet stimulus.
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Ah yes, if you dominate play and impose your will like QB has but don’t score you’re just playing great but could be better.. or if you drive all the play on your line and setup prime scoring chances but the sniper(Wagner) on your line can’t convert you’re not fulfilling your offensive potential..
my point still stands, if you’re just going off of stats and not actually watching the games either on the AHL network or live.. how are you folks drawing these conclusions? I think most here would say Alex Newhook has looked pretty damn good in the AHL and the NHL yet Turcotte dominated that matchup when they played.. he didn’t score so it gets overlooked.. you guys do realize guys like Tynan, Frk and other AAAA where brought in to help bring the kids along and have done just that!
Look no further than Raccoon Jebus’ breakdown of the Reigns most productive players and Turcotte is right there behind Tynan(MVP) and Frk. What that tells me is that is scoring isn’t an issue, I would be concerned if his defense was lagging but it’s been elite..
So you see what we have in Turcotte isn’t a kid that’s underperforming but rather living up to his billing as the best two way player in his draft class… now I’ll just wait while someone again mentions why he isn’t scoring more or if he’s so good why he isn’t in the NHL.. so whose going to be that guy and ask that???
 
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