Ontario Reign 20-21 part II Growing Pains

[Herby]

Hindsight GMing yet on an extremely incomplete season.

The plan was sound based on the info we had at the time and if you recall there was no certainty on what the NCAA was even doing. Turcotte was hurt at the WJC, not because he got rushed to the pros. K'Andre Miller is doing fine with the Rangers, it's not like Turcotte was the only one exiting. "Blaming" a GM for a season at the quarterpole is a little premature to say the least, and calling it a terrible development path...I mean, can I have your crystal ball on this one?

Yeah the Reign are in the mud right now but you've reached a lot of conclusions on incomplete info and they all are worst-case scenarios. I'm not thrilled with the current situation but I have to believe they've got nowhere to go but up and that the Kings will actually give them the reinforcements instead of just sitting on them.

It's not hindsighting, we had this very argument at the time of the signing, so how is it hindsighting? There were plenty of concerns, many expressed on this very board about whether it was a good move to have a 19 year old who didn't exactly set the world on fire as a freshman to be promoted to pro hockey before he was ready. There have been examples of others who have been signed prematurely and it hindered their development (Casey Mittlestadt). You (ofcourse) loved the signing, but who has had a more positive development this year Caufield and Holloway or Turcotte? If you had it to do over again would you still be championing the signing? And based on what historical precedent? Ryan Kesler 17 years ago?

I never said he was injured because he was playing pro hockey, he could have been injured practicing, my comments have nothing to do with his injury and everything to do with the fact that the vast majority of the successful NCAA players currently in the NHL play atleast two years, and the ones that don't usually dominate as NCAA freshman and then immediately step into NHL lineups (Eichel, Connor, Keller, Larkin, Tkachuk) as very good NHL players. I follow college closely, I can't think of a single player who has left college after an 18 year old season, played an entire season in the AHL and then been an impact NHL'er. And that was the Kings "sound plan" for the highest draft pick they had in a decade?

And yes, thank you for citing Miller, Miller played two years, two years should be the norm unless you are ready to step in and play in the NHL right away, which clearly wasn't going to ever be the case with this player. Had Miller left after his freshman season it's very likely he would not be the player he has been so far. Holloway and Caufield will both likely be gone after this season, with a year of dominating hockey for a very good team under a former NHL coach, heck they might even win a national championship. All those things are important for the development of a player you expect to eventually dominate at the NHL level. Playing another year at Wisconsin and being a dominating player at the NCAA level would have been the best thing for his development, it's common sense, not hindsight.

 

[Chazz Reinhold]

I have no issue at all with the Kings allowing Kupari to collect an NHL paycheck and practice with NHL’ers as a reward for his strong play in the AHL.

He will eventually go back down and be motivated to keep it up and hopefully be up permanently no later than the start of next year.

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure taxi squad players do not collect their NHL salary. As it was described the other day, it’s an extension of the AHL team, which is why waiver-eligible players must clear waivers to go to the taxi squad.

Assuming that’s the case, Kupari’s recall to the taxi squad doesn’t make a ton of sense because it’s not really a reward of a bigger salary.

I’ve been questioning the Kupari recall in a group chat for a number of days now (ever since it became clear he wasn’t actually going to get into a game).

Edit: NHL to Taxi Squad to AHL Salary Structure

Player is on the Taxi Squad
If a player on a one-way NHL contract is on the Taxi Squad, he is paid his regular NHL salary subject to the same deferral and escrow as if he was on the NHL roster.

If a player is on a two-way NHL contract, he is paid his minor league salary, without any proration.

Example:

Alex Barabanov is on an ELC that pays $925,000 in the NHL and $70,000 in the minors.

Salary owed is calculated daily, and the NHL year has 116 this year. So one day on the NHL roster for him is: 925,000 x 1 / 116 = 7,974.14. With the deferral and escrow taken off, that becomes: $5,751.38

On the Taxi Squad he is paid 70,000 x 1 / 116 = $603.45

In the AHL he would be paid something between that number and $242 each day.

This information is from Attachment D of the 2020-2021 NHL Transition Rules

It seems like Kupari might get a slight increase based on that example there, but it’s still pennies compared to what his NHL salary would pay him.

 

[Sleeping Dog]

Edit: NHL to Taxi Squad to AHL Salary Structure
Player is on the Taxi Squad
If a player on a one-way NHL contract is on the Taxi Squad, he is paid his regular NHL salary subject to the same deferral and escrow as if he was on the NHL roster.

If a player is on a two-way NHL contract, he is paid his minor league salary, without any proration.

But aren’t AHL players getting a prorated salary (48%) this year? If that’s true, then time on the taxi squad is a nice financial bonus for them.

 

[Mats26]

I agree about the ex-players but an AHL GM doesn’t control much. The majority of the roster is under contract to the Kings and Blake hired the coaching staff.



Meanwhile the Badgers might win the Big Ten and are tournament bound with the other two 1st round picks on that team having dominating sophomore seasons because their NHL teams were hands off instead of rushing them to a level they weren’t ready for.

Don’t see how Turcotte being a big part of a winning team wouldn’t be way better for his development than what is going on with the Reign. Very disappointing situation that Blake deserves a lot of blame for. Terrible path they took with one of their best prospects.

No he didn't. It was on one of the public zoom calls that Seeley and Murray had the mandate to find a coach. And Jeff Solomon negotiates all the contracts.

I agree with you on Blake. If some of these prospects busts, he needs to be held accountable for some of his decisions.

 

[Chazz Reinhold]

But aren’t AHL players getting a prorated salary (48%) this year? If that’s true, then time on the taxi squad is a nice financial bonus for them.

That make sense as the difference the author pointed out (I only scrolled to the taxi squad part). Kupari’s AHL salary this year is $70,000, so that example in the article applies to him. As I noted there, ~$300 to $600 is a slight increase in actual dollars, but it’s not anywhere close to the over $5,000 he’d be making on his NHL salary.

Edit: went back and looked at more of the article and that is the difference the author highlights between the $242 (which was based on what was floated at that time as the AHL proration, but appears to be closer to the 48% you cited) and the $603.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

It's not hindsighting, we had this very argument at the time of the signing, so how is it hindsighting? There were plenty of concerns, many expressed on this very board about whether it was a good move to have a 19 year old who didn't exactly set the world on fire as a freshman to be promoted to pro hockey before he was ready. There have been examples of others who have been signed prematurely and it hindered their development (Casey Mittlestadt). You (ofcourse) loved the signing, but who has had a more positive development this year Caufield and Holloway or Turcotte? If you had it to do over again would you still be championing the signing? And based on what historical precedent? Ryan Kesler 17 years ago?

I never said he was injured because he was playing pro hockey, he could have been injured practicing, my comments have nothing to do with his injury and everything to do with the fact that the vast majority of the successful NCAA players currently in the NHL play atleast two years, and the ones that don't usually dominate as NCAA freshman and then immediately step into NHL lineups (Eichel, Connor, Keller, Larkin, Tkachuk) as very good NHL players. I follow college closely, I can't think of a single player who has left college after an 18 year old season, played an entire season in the AHL and then been an impact NHL'er. And that was the Kings "sound plan" for the highest draft pick they had in a decade?

And yes, thank you for citing Miller, Miller played two years, two years should be the norm unless you are ready to step in and play in the NHL right away, which clearly wasn't going to ever be the case with this player. Had Miller left after his freshman season it's very likely he would not be the player he has been so far. Holloway and Caufield will both likely be gone after this season, with a year of dominating hockey for a very good team under a former NHL coach, heck they might even win a national championship. All those things are important for the development of a player you expect to eventually dominate at the NHL level. Playing another year at Wisconsin and being a dominating player at the NCAA level would have been the best thing for his development, it's common sense, not hindsight.

I don't mean that the concern wasn't raised--I definitely remember the discussion. I simply mean it's a little early to be throwing dirt on his casket after 10 pro games. The guy is taking the step to the next level now whether we like it or not, and unfortunately the team is in shambles--but mocking the "sound plan" to bring the guy closer to the development team with his former coach before he even gets started?

Frankly this has more to do with the college team being good and the AHL team being bad than being a 'faulty path' in any way. If we knew this would be the case all season, sure, I'd possibly re-think it, but knowing what we knew at the time--Granato was a shitshow enough that many of the kids left, the team was terrible, and we were bringing in Turcotte's old coach to the development program (that has a stellar record) to get him acclimated to the pro game--it's tough to say it was a bad decision. It's even tougher to say it's a bad decision so early on.

 

[redcard]

The taxi squad is an NHL requirement. When we go on the road we have to have extra guys travel with the team. We can fill it with guys who we aren't concerned with their development (Grosenick, Alt, Imama) but we only have so many of those. Furthermore, remember when we went on a road trip and lost 2 defensemen to injury and 2 forwards to the Covid list? That could easily happen again and was why Kupari was with the squad for the road trip. The nature of this virus is that you can have 2-3+ guys test positive the morning of the game and be ruled out and we don't want to be plugging in a bunch of career AHLers while we're still trying to compete.

Having JAD, Fagemo, and then Kupari go on a road trip with the team isn't going to ruin their development. The organization isn't going to let them sit out forever not playing, we saw with JAD that it was just a matter of time before he drew in. They get valuable practice time and I guarantee you these guys are thrilled to be there rather than in Ontario. Even if its not NHL salary, its a promotion, its recognition that they're close, its a chance to impress McLellan in person every day.

 

[regulate]

I have no issue at all with the Kings allowing Kupari to collect an NHL paycheck and practice with NHL’ers as a reward for his strong play in the AHL.

He will eventually go back down and be motivated to keep it up and hopefully be up permanently no later than the start of next year.

He's not collecting an NHL paycheck unless he's on the NHL roster. He isn't.

 

[Chazz Reinhold]

The taxi squad is an NHL requirement. When we go on the road we have to have extra guys travel with the team. We can fill it with guys who we aren't concerned with their development (Grosenick, Alt, Imama) but we only have so many of those. Furthermore, remember when we went on a road trip and lost 2 defensemen to injury and 2 forwards to the Covid list? That could easily happen again and was why Kupari was with the squad for the road trip. The nature of this virus is that you can have 2-3+ guys test positive the morning of the game and be ruled out and we don't want to be plugging in a bunch of career AHLers while we're still trying to compete.

Having JAD, Fagemo, and then Kupari go on a road trip with the team isn't going to ruin their development. The organization isn't going to let them sit out forever not playing, we saw with JAD that it was just a matter of time before he drew in. They get valuable practice time and I guarantee you these guys are thrilled to be there rather than in Ontario. Even if its not NHL salary, its a promotion, its recognition that they're close, its a chance to impress McLellan in person every day.

Then that’s on Blake and Seeley for not bringing in more AHL vets to either try to rotate through the taxi squad or to better fill out the AHL lineup when players like Kupari get called up.

I don’t recall anyone saying it would ruin Kupari’s development specifically; my point is that it is probably not good for the development of our current crop of prospects (many of whom are pretty crucial to the future) in the AHL who are still there to have the team deliberately handicapped when there’s a huge learning curve for approximately just under half of the current roster as it is.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

No matter how you paint it HAVING to play 11-7 with Phillips at forward is a management failure throughout the club.

 

[redcard]

Then that’s on Blake and Seeley for not bringing in more AHL vets to either try to rotate through the taxi squad or to better fill out the AHL lineup when players like Kupari get called up.

I don’t recall anyone saying it would ruin Kupari’s development specifically; my point is that it is probably not good for the development of our current crop of prospects (many of whom are pretty crucial to the future) in the AHL who are still there to have the team deliberately handicapped when there’s a huge learning curve for approximately just under half of the current roster as it is.

13 of the 18 skaters have to be "development players" for every Ontario game. You can only dress 5 veterans, which yes, last night by my count we only had 4 (Sutter, Doty, Alt, Gaunce) but to have filled that spot we would have needed another veteran willing to sit out every game to this point before drawing in.

The problem isn't so much a lack of veterans, its simply that so many of our "development players" are rookies or second year pros. We don't have any 22 or 23 year old forwards on the roster other than Halloran because we only drafted 4! forwards combined in 2015 and 2016. We signed the Poehling twins but they were 24 year old rookies and were sent to the ECHL...Phillips is probably a better 4th line option than they would have been anyway.

We had years of trading picks followed by years of stockpiling picks. This is why both LA and Ontario have a gap of talent in one age group and a glutton of talent in another. Blake has clearly tried to fill that gap with college signings, and has done a decent job, but there's only so much that can accomplish.

 

[Chazz Reinhold]

13 of the 18 skaters have to be "development players" for every Ontario game. You can only dress 5 veterans, which yes, last night by my count we only had 4 (Sutter, Doty, Alt, Gaunce) but to have filled that spot we would have needed another veteran willing to sit out every game to this point before drawing in.

The problem isn't so much a lack of veterans, its simply that so many of our "development players" are rookies or second year pros. We don't have any 22 or 23 year old forwards on the roster other than Halloran because we only drafted 4! forwards combined in 2015 and 2016. We signed the Poehling twins but they were 24 year old rookies and were sent to the ECHL...Phillips is probably a better 4th line option than they would have been anyway.

We had years of trading picks followed by years of stockpiling picks. This is why both LA and Ontario have a gap of talent in one age group and a glutton of talent in another. Blake has clearly tried to fill that gap with college signings, and has done a decent job, but there's only so much that can accomplish.

I do recall the 5-vet-max rule in the AHL, but I don’t find that to be a good reason to rely at this point on young but still more experienced AHL players (Kupari and Strand, for instance) to be the taxi squad options for road trips. If anything, they should be in the AHL with the team because they are both at least not first-year pros but also don’t qualify as vets under the AHL rule.

I understand your concern about not having to plug AHL lifers onto the Kings roster in emergency situations (though we’ve already seen that with Alt), but I’m of the opinion that what happens in the AHL this year is more important to the future of the franchise than an unexpected push this season by the Kings for a playoff spot.

 

[Herby]

He's not collecting an NHL paycheck unless he's on the NHL roster. He isn't.

I stand corrected. Although doesn’t he get an increase in not only salary but per diem being on the taxi squad?

Not to mention being around the NHL life.

I think it’s a fair reward. They won’t have him up for long if he’s not playing, but nothing wrong with giving him a little taste.

 

[redcard]

I do recall the 5-vet-max rule in the AHL, but I don’t find that to be a good reason to rely at this point on young but still more experienced AHL players (Kupari and Strand, for instance) to be the taxi squad options for road trips. If anything, they should be in the AHL with the team because they are both at least not first-year pros but also don’t qualify as vets under the AHL rule.

I understand your concern about not having to plug AHL lifers onto the Kings roster in emergency situations (though we’ve already seen that with Alt), but I’m of the opinion that what happens in the AHL this year is more important to the future of the franchise than an unexpected push this season by the Kings for a playoff spot.

I get it. 1 win in 10 games in Ontario is ugly and far from ideal, but there are still opportunities to learn from losing, even losing a lot. I'm not too worried about a losing culture developing on a minor league sqaud, just like the big squad we just need these guys to collectively gain more experience, get more comfortable, and the results will come.

 

[Chazz Reinhold]

I get it. 1 win in 10 games in Ontario is ugly and far from ideal, but there are still opportunities to learn from losing, even losing a lot. I'm not too worried about a losing culture developing on a minor league sqaud, just like the big squad we just need these guys to collectively gain more experience, get more comfortable, and the results will come.

Let’s hope so. At least the Reign almost have nowhere to go but up.

 

[regulate]

I stand corrected. Although doesn’t he get an increase in not only salary but per diem being on the taxi squad?

Not to mention being around the NHL life.

I think it’s a fair reward. They won’t have him up for long if he’s not playing, but nothing wrong with giving him a little taste.

Yes, agree with all that and he does get a slight raise because his AHL salary is not prorated when he is traveling with big club. They wanted to get him into some NHL practices to see if he was ready to jump into the line up. Maybe they do they when they return home and Tmac has more control over the matchups. Kupari does have some defensive lapses he needs to work on, particularly when playing C.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

 

[Chazz Reinhold]

Rob is finally listening to us here.

 

[Fat Elvis]

Curious to see how Andersson responds. Rooting for the kid to succeed.

 

[redcard]

Curious to see how Andersson responds. Rooting for the kid to succeed.

Hope he can find his scoring touch, he hasn't looked bad this season just needs to find a way to get on the score sheet.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

It's as if they jettisoned the two weakest links in Ontario (Durzi & Villalta) to the taxi squad. Probably for the better.

 

[ru4reals]

Curious to see how Andersson responds. Rooting for the kid to succeed.

I can't believe the kings would rather play Amadios then Andersson. Even though he's looked a bit better in the last game he has the worst set of skills I've seen in quite some time. Can't skate, no hands no finish. Baffled really, at least Andersson can stick handle somewhat.

 

[ru4reals]

It's as if they jettisoned the two weakest links in Ontario (Durzi & Villalta) to the taxi squad. Probably for the better.

Whoa what's up with Toby? Is he benched.

 

[Chazz Reinhold]

Whoa what's up with Toby? Is he benched.

Something like that I wouldn’t worry about. The Kings have to have a minimum of 4 on the taxi squad so on non-game days like this is easy to send someone like Bjornfot to the taxi squad (doesn’t have to clear waivers). I would be shocked if he’s not back on the NHL roster before the game tomorrow.

 

[regulate]

I can't believe the kings would rather play Amadios then Andersson. Even though he's looked a bit better in the last game he has the worst set of skills I've seen in quite some time. Can't skate, no hands no finish. Baffled really, at least Andersson can stick handle somewhat.

Andersson is the bottom of the barrel among all of the Kings forwards in Corsi, Corsi relative, and most importantly, GA/60 at even strength. He is by far statistically the worst defensive forward on the team, and it's not even close. A goals against rate of 5.3 per 60 minutes is nearly a full two goals higher than the next forward (Lizotte and Carter). It's right up there bad with MacDermid (5.7) Therefore, he lacks the coaching staffs trust. Plus his face off percentage as a center is a paltry 35%. Same issues he had in NY. Kings took a chance with this trade, the early returns are not promising but it's still the start of the process. Hopefully he pans out. Andersson will play with the Reign for a while, hopefully gets some of his game back.