Only game being played is the blame game(CBA Negotiation discussion thread) - Part IV

[pepty]

I agree with you. They caved the last two times and it still wasn't enough. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

After all these terrible losses they are hugging this CBA to themselves because they know they are making out like bandits. . They have it better than the players from any other north American League-57 percent of revenue and guaranteed contracts. They are making more money in hard dollars than NFL players.

adater: NHLPA is content to blow off this season. They have the resolve the owners had in 2004-05. They are at war with Bettman, period

10 min ago RTed by mirtle
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That's why NHLPA is taking it slow.

The PA bringing in Richard Rodier who has scores to settle with Bettman was a signal that there was more than a salary dispute involved here.

The Goodenow loyalists who booted Kelly in the midnight coup also want revenge on Bettman.

But what about Fehr? He is a hardliner and if he could wave goodbye to a world series he will have no qualms about losing a season in the NHL.However he is supposed to be working for the players and should not have those old axes to grind as Rodier and Lindros, Pulvar etc.

And what about the players? Surely they can see that all their stonewalling and stalling are increasingly obvious despite having a lot of the sports media on side giving them every benefit of the doubt.

It is clear to most that the division of revenues should be in the 50/50 range. In not even coming to the bargaining table it looks as though the hardliners in the PA are more intent on revenge against Bettman than they are in acting in the best interests of their members and of the league.

 

[Number 9*]

After all these terrible losses they are hugging this CBA to themselves because they know they are making out like bandits. . They have it better than the players from any other north American League-57 percent of revenue and guaranteed contracts. They are making more money in hard dollars than NFL players.



The PA bringing in Richard Rodier who has scores to settle with Bettman was a signal that there was more than a salary dispute involved here.

The Goodenow loyalists who booted Kelly in the midnight coup also want revenge on Bettman.

But what about Fehr? He is a hardliner and if he could wave goodbye to a world series he will have no qualms about losing a season in the NHL.However he is supposed to be working for the players and should not have those old axes to grind as Rodier and Lindros, Pulvar etc.

And what about the players? Surely they can see that all their stonewalling and stalling are increasingly obvious despite having a lot of the sports media on side giving them every benefit of the doubt.

It is clear to most that the division of revenues should be in the 50/50 range. In not even coming to the bargaining table it looks as though the hardliners in the PA are more intent on revenge against Bettman than they are in acting in the best interests of their members and of the league.

Have it better? Yet not a one NHL player cracks the top 100 in pay for athletes?

 

[Tra La La]

After all these terrible losses they are hugging this CBA to themselves because they know they are making out like bandits. . They have it better than the players from any other north American League-57 percent of revenue and guaranteed contracts. They are making more money in hard dollars than NFL players.



The PA bringing in Richard Rodier who has scores to settle with Bettman was a signal that there was more than a salary dispute involved here.

The Goodenow loyalists who booted Kelly in the midnight coup also want revenge on Bettman.

But what about Fehr? He is a hardliner and if he could wave goodbye to a world series he will have no qualms about losing a season in the NHL.However he is supposed to be working for the players and should not have those old axes to grind as Rodier and Lindros, Pulvar etc.

And what about the players? Surely they can see that all their stonewalling and stalling are increasingly obvious despite having a lot of the sports media on side giving them every benefit of the doubt.

It is clear to most that the division of revenues should be in the 50/50 range. In not even coming to the bargaining table it looks as though the hardliners in the PA are more intent on revenge against Bettman than they are in acting in the best interests of their members and of the league.

Which is what I don't get. It didn't take long for people on this board to see through the p.a. offer. 52% de-linked from revenue isn't 52%. But they seem just as hornswaggled as the p.a. members.

The P.A. are trying to completely re-fight 04-05 over again. When the owners just want a better split then 57-43.

 

[Tra La La]

After all these terrible losses they are hugging this CBA to themselves because they know they are making out like bandits. . They have it better than the players from any other north American League-57 percent of revenue and guaranteed contracts. They are making more money in hard dollars than NFL players.



The PA bringing in Richard Rodier who has scores to settle with Bettman was a signal that there was more than a salary dispute involved here.

The Goodenow loyalists who booted Kelly in the midnight coup also want revenge on Bettman.

But what about Fehr? He is a hardliner and if he could wave goodbye to a world series he will have no qualms about losing a season in the NHL.However he is supposed to be working for the players and should not have those old axes to grind as Rodier and Lindros, Pulvar etc.

And what about the players? Surely they can see that all their stonewalling and stalling are increasingly obvious despite having a lot of the sports media on side giving them every benefit of the doubt.

It is clear to most that the division of revenues should be in the 50/50 range. In not even coming to the bargaining table it looks as though the hardliners in the PA are more intent on revenge against Bettman than they are in acting in the best interests of their members and of the league.

Every time I read that I find it disturbing.

 

[JAX]

The players need to drop the 2005 lockout boo hoo thing. Yea originally they thought they lost but they ended up winning big time during the course of the last few years. And if they are to stunned to realize this then too bad. The real issue is too many teams are losing money and the CBA needs to be fixed.

 

[Number 9*]

Every time I read that I find it disturbing.

Without a doubt it's about somehow breaking Gary Bettman. Read the article I posted and the players are pretty angry and want him gone!

 

[Number 9*]

The players need to drop the 2005 lockout boo hoo thing. Yea originally they thought they lost but they ended up winning big time during the course of the last few years. And if they are to stunned to realize this then too bad. The real issue is too many teams are losing money and the CBA needs to be fixed.

Nope the real issue is revenue disparity and revenue disbursing! The owners in the big revenue areas have ZERO interest in helping the small markets.

If Goodell can get Jerry Jones to give money to Green Bay maybe Gary should get some tutoring from Roger.

 

[pepty]

This is rather long but this is from a writer who's in touch with many players. It's really not about money it's about anger:


This is a sad story with no winners, but the tagline of the story is this: the players in the NHL are sick and tired of Gary Bettman, and they will sacrifice their greater financial good to drive this man out of their game.

That’s how much they hate him.

The players know they are going down the road of “cutting off their noses to spite their face.†They know they lose the most should a full season be cancelled.

But they are willing to do it, if it means salvaging their pride from the last time around. They are willing to do it if it means the possibility of kicking Gary Bettman in the ass this time, giving him a good pounding he won’t forget and knocking that smirk off his face that’s been there the last seven years.
.

You don't provide a link or tell us who this "writer " is, but if this is the mindset of the players then this is a damning indictment,

That they have so little regard for the league, the fans and the game as to hold all for ransom in the name of revenge shows a terrible pettiness and childishness.

And all this vilification of Bettman is not really just shorthand for blaming the owners but is personal and is part of the blueprint of revenge.

But just who are these people so bent on revenge?

Modano and others who have been through previous wars advised the players not to hold out. A lot of the older players are reported in fact to be anxious to get back on the ice.

As has been mentioned. a lot of the players today are young and were not involved in the last work stoppage. They have made out very well in this CBA and have no reason to hate Bettman or anyone else.

So it looks like it is the bitter Goodenow hardliners , some onside with the Kelly coup many of them not even players, and the likes of Rodier with their own axes to grind who are running this show and dispensing Koolaid to the players who do seem to be remarkably easy to lead-for a time anyway.

 

[Number 9*]

You don't provide a link or tell us who this "writer " is, but if this is the mindset of the players then this is a damning indictment,

That they have so little regard for the league, the fans and the game as to hold all for ransom in the name of revenge shows a terrible pettiness and childishness.

And all this vilification of Bettman is not really just shorthand for blaming the owners but is personal and is part of the blueprint of revenge.

But just who are these people so bent on revenge?

Modano and others who have been through previous wars advised the players not to hold out. A lot of the older players are reported in fact to be anxious to get back on the ice.

As has been mentioned. a lot of the players today are young and were not involved in the last work stoppage. They have made out very well in this CBA and have no reason to hate Bettman or anyone else.

So it looks like it is the bitter Goodenow hardliners , some onside with the Kelly coup many of them not even players, and the likes of Rodier with their own axes to grind who are running this show and dispensing Koolaid to the players who do seem to be remarkably easy to lead-for a time anyway.

My apologizes for not providing a link:

http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2012/09/29/nhl-season/11655/

 

[BLONG7]

Nope the real issue is revenue disparity and revenue disbursing! The owners in the big revenue areas have ZERO interest in helping the small markets.

If Goodell can get Jerry Jones to give money to Green Bay maybe Gary should get some tutoring from Roger.

The NFL gets a couple of Billion dollars from TV revenue...that's the only reason Jerry doesn't mind giving money to Green Bay...apples and orange, the NHL and the NFL.....revenue sharing does need to be looked at closer, I will agree....


As for your the players hate Bettman, so do some of the owners, but if they are willing to sit a year or two because of Bettman, than who is really negotiating in good faith? What about the fans, the players say they care about...I think you are just blowing smoke on some speculation...in every league, the players don't like the Commish...and in every business, the employees rarely like their managers...it is what it is...some union ya-hoos just odn't like being told what to do......if ya don't wanna play, then just buy a team and see how easy it all is from the other side...ask Mario.

 

[Mike Jones]

Without a doubt it's about somehow breaking Gary Bettman. Read the article I posted and the players are pretty angry and want him gone!

As much as I dislike Bettman I also know that this breaking thing is not going to happen. As long as he's doing the owner's bidding he's not going anywhere.

Which is too bad and a real loss for the league and the game.

 

[JAX]

Nope the real issue is revenue disparity and revenue disbursing! The owners in the big revenue areas have ZERO interest in helping the small markets.

If Goodell can get Jerry Jones to give money to Green Bay maybe Gary should get some tutoring from Roger.

Nope, you can't expect a handfull of well off teams to help the rest of the league out. Some revenue sharing will be in place but only after they can get costs that are under control.

You can't have a cap floor where teams are going into the red just to make the minimum cap. Player costs have to come down or else no system will work long term for many of the teams.

 

[Number 9*]

The NFL gets a couple of Billion dollars from TV revenue...that's the only reason Jerry doesn't mind giving money to Green Bay...apples and orange, the NHL and the NFL.....revenue sharing does need to be looked at closer, I will agree....


As for your the players hate Bettman, so do some of the owners, but if they are willing to sit a year or two because of Bettman, than who is really negotiating in good faith? What about the fans, the players say they care about...I think you are just blowing smoke on some speculation...in every league, the players don't like the Commish...and in every business, the employees rarely like their managers...it is what it is...some union ya-hoos just odn't like being told what to do......if ya don't wanna play, then just buy a team and see how easy it all is from the other side...ask Mario.

Maybe rather than constantly dealing labor battles Gary should worrying more about better tv revenues.

Just a thought.

When was the last time you heard Mario himself speak out against the players?

 

[Number 9*]

Nope, you can't expect a handfull of well off teams to help the rest of the league out. Some revenue sharing will be in place but only after they can get costs that are under control.

You can't have a cap floor where teams are going into the red just to make the minimum cap. Player costs have to come down or else no system will work long term for many of the teams.

Man I'm confused on this costs issue? Didnt we have cost certainty shoved down our throats for a year or more? And the need for it? And how linkage was the cure all?

Just a reminder Gary has NOT said one word about cost certainty this time. He has said they make too much and we were too generous last time.

 

[Tra La La]

Nope the real issue is revenue disparity and revenue disbursing! The owners in the big revenue areas have ZERO interest in helping the small markets.

If Goodell can get Jerry Jones to give money to Green Bay maybe Gary should get some tutoring from Roger.

And going down the baseball path ruins competitive balance. We know that's the road they want to travel.

The best way really is even the split, and grow the sport, increase revenue.

 

[Number 9*]

And going down the baseball path ruins competitive balance. We know that's the road they want to travel.

The best way really is even the split, and grow the sport, increase revenue.

This whole situation whether you or Mr. Bettman want to admit it is cost of parity.

 

[JAX]

Man I'm confused on this costs issue? Didnt we have cost certainty shoved down our throats for a year or more? And the need for it? And how linkage was the cure all?

Just a reminder Gary has NOT said one word about cost certainty this time. He has said they make too much and we were too generous last time.

There was loopholes in the last CBA in which some owners utilized which caused the salary bar to rise. Not to mention the cap level was set to revenue but most of the revenue was created by a small number of the teams and the bottom feeders are forced to keep up by going into the red.

 

[JAX]

As much as I dislike Bettman I also know that this breaking thing is not going to happen. As long as he's doing the owner's bidding he's not going anywhere.

Which is too bad and a real loss for the league and the game.

So the are the players really going to miss a whole season a year of good money to "stick it to Bettman". It almost seems absurd that they could be this childish, but I think it's the lynchmob at the higher ranks of the PA that are the root of this. I would like to think most players would like to get a deal done and their careers rolling rather then playing chicken.

And as for Bettman, even if he is gone do the players think another commish will come in and allow the players to run this league? 2of 3 teams arn't making money and a commishoner's job is to get a CBA that will work. The bottom line is 1 way or another the players will have to give concessions or the league won't be finacialy viable.

 

[Number 9*]

There was loopholes in the last CBA in which some owners utilized which caused the salary bar to rise. Not to mention the cap level was set to revenue but most of the revenue was created by a small number of the teams and the bottom feeders are forced to keep up by going into the red.

So the owners circumvented the system they so badly needed? And now it's players that have to clean up the mess?

Your post is why a luxury tax system makes more sense! The owners have proved over and over that they are going do what it takes and circumvent the system because there isn't a punishment system in place.

Every time these CBA negotiations happen its always claw back from the players because owners can't stop eating each other!

 

[Do Make Say Think]

My translation? Daly -- We're not budging but if I keep saying that we're waiting on the players, it will make it look like we did something new.


My way or the highway.

Talk about being disingenuous! Are you seriously implying that Daly asking for the PA to be flexible (Daly is not attempting to shove terms down anybody's throats with this statement) is being forceful?
While you are clearly very intelligent you seem to be lacking in intellectual honesty. The NHL has an established goal and has been trying to get the PA to talk but the PA has refused. Now you may feel that what the NHL is trying to achieve is unfair, but that is irrelevant unfortunately (for you): the group of people who own the teams and pay everybody have the ability to set the agenda. The PA's failure is that they are refusing a simple truth in that they need to work within the frame that the NHL has the power to set; a favourite quote of mine is "reality doesn't care if you believe it or not" and it certainly applies to this situation.
Again I udnerstand and accept that the PA should not and will not accept whatever the NHL wants, that much is fair and resonnable. What is not reasonnable however is the PA's failure to engage the NHL in meaningful talks: that strategy worked at first, the NHL make some considerable effort after their admittedly drastic first offer, to get the PA to start talking but the PA has refused and tabled the same offer three times, the same offer the NHL has said it cannot accept. The PA has similarly said they cannot accept the NHL's offer and that's fine, however the reality of it is that the NHL is setting the agenda and no platonic grand principle is going to alter that fact.
The lockout is the PA's fault.

 

[MaskedSonja]

The more I hear/read about the players "wanting to get back for 04-05"-if that's really the situation, it reaffirms to me that this is going to be a very long lockout. Hearing both sides talk rather bluntly about "willing to lose the year" tells me there is some serious entrenching going on.

They can talk about the "minor" issues, sure-supposedly they are meeting today (sat) to discuss HRR framework? I'm confused, didn't the owners agree to use the "old" definition of HRR? Or is this something else entirely?

 

[JAX]

So the owners circumvented the system they so badly needed? And now it's players that have to clean up the mess?

Your post is why a luxury tax system makes more sense! The owners have proved over and over that they are going do what it takes and circumvent the system because there isn't a punishment system in place.

Every time these CBA negotiations happen its always claw back from the players because owners can't stop eating each other!

It's true the CBA needs to be done to protect the owners from themselves, there are 30 teams and a limited # of star players to choose from. Teams have to compete against each other to get the talent they need to win and have a succesfull franchise.

A tight cap system with a contained difference between ceiling and floor make for a competitive league where all franchises have an equal chance to win and management has to do with winning more then out spending.

 

[Powdered Toast Man]

I appears to me that the PA is willing to give back in order to help the struggling teams. It's a matter of how much, and subsequently how said money is going to be distributed.

The players are worried that the owners are going to take their money, have it not solve any issues, and ask for more money next time. It's akin to a child asking his father for 200 bucks to buy a bicycle, in order for him to get to school faster, only for the child to grab a dirty old bicycle from the garbage a few houses down and spend the 200 bucks on videos games. The child then asks the father for another 200 bucks because his new bike is all dirty and broken after one day.

The players want to see the bicycle, give the owners the required amount, and see the owners purchase said bicycle.

I don't blame them one bit.

 

[Tra La La]

So the owners circumvented the system they so badly needed? And now it's players that have to clean up the mess?

Your post is why a luxury tax system makes more sense! The owners have proved over and over that they are going do what it takes and circumvent the system because there isn't a punishment system in place.

Every time these CBA negotiations happen its always claw back from the players because owners can't stop eating each other!

Ok 65 million dollar cap , with a 5 million dollar max overage year 1, 5% max overage following years.(escalator goes away) luxury tax dollar for dollar. But all loopholes closed, 5 year max contract , no assigning players to ahl or other leagues. Cap still linked to revenue, even split year 2 on (50/50). Escrow still in place. Player Amounts subject to luxury tax do not apply to players %. (If Toronto is 5 million over the cap the 5 million is neutral dollars)

ELC length set by signing age 18= 5 years, 19= 4 years, 20 and over = 3 years.

F.A. a 27, but team gets an NFL style Franchise tag option.

 

[JAX]

It appears to me that the PA is willing to give [/B]back in order to help the struggling teams. It's a matter of how much, and subsequently how said money is going to be distributed.

The players are worried that the owners are going to take their money, have it not solve any issues, and ask for more money next time. It's akin to a child asking his father for 200 bucks to buy a bicycle, in order for him to get to school faster, only for the child to grab a dirty old bicycle from the garbage a few houses down and spend the 200 bucks on videos games. The child then asks the father for another 200 bucks because his new bike is all dirty and broken after one day.

The players want to see the bicycle, give the owners the required amount, and see the owners purchase said bicycle.

I don't blame them one bit.

Yes, the players will do whatever it takes......