OT: One More Off Topic Off Season Thread

Spawn

Something in the water
Feb 20, 2006
44,506
17,145
Edmonton
The way criminals are handled here is similar to the ideology of Pit Bull owners.

"This one is actually a nice offender, he's ok now, when he acted out before it wasn't his fault...."

Until that person does it again, every single time. There are countless studies on violent offenders, and especially violent sexual offenders that show that there is little chance of rehabilitation. Doesn't change our government's view that they are just folks that were somehow wronged and deserve as many second chances as possible.



This definitively isn't the case for the general public.

Unfortunately we are victim of a slate of terrible supreme court decisions over the past couple of decades that decisively stack the deck in favour of the offender. Still things that can be done in spite of this, but that certainly won't come from this pathetic government that is likely much more interested in balancing out the racial demographics of those incarcerated then actually protecting the public.

Its a tragedy what happened at the corn maze. I'm sure we'll find out more as to what happened. It's awful someone was killed.

I do think you need to be careful with the generalizations though. Generally people who have been found not criminally responsible due to mental disorder have very low recidivism rates. The notion of someone not being criminally responsible for their actions due to a mental disorder is also not a new concept from the last couple of decades or the current government in power, nor is it unique to Canada.

 

K1984

Registered User
Feb 7, 2008
15,595
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Its a tragedy what happened at the corn maze. I'm sure we'll find out more as to what happened. It's awful someone was killed.

I do think you need to be careful with the generalizations though. Generally people who have been found not criminally responsible due to mental disorder have very low recidivism rates. The notion of someone not being criminally responsible for their actions due to a mental disorder is also not a new concept from the last couple of decades or the current government in power, nor is it unique to Canada.


That’s different than deciding that people with a history of violence as a result of psychosis need to have a nice day out at a corn maze on break from the zero security environment they live in. We should just be thankful they didn’t hurt someone from the general public. “Not criminally responsible” doesn’t mean that measures shouldn’t be taken to protect the public from people like this that are virtually guaranteed to re-offend.

Just like the pit bull “oh wow they were so nice for so long I can’t believe he attacked your child!” It’s rolling the dice with the safety of the public and it’s nonsense.

Edit - maybe if he’s thrown back to a low security environment with a high risk of offending again it will just work better eventually.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7308437

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7308437
 
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Spawn

Something in the water
Feb 20, 2006
44,506
17,145
Edmonton
That’s different than deciding that people with a history of violence as a result of psychosis need to have a nice day out at a corn maze on break from the zero security environment they live in. We should just be thankful they didn’t hurt someone from the general public. “Not criminally responsible” doesn’t mean that measures shouldn’t be taken to protect the public from people like this that are virtually guaranteed to re-offend.

Just like the pit bull “oh wow they were so nice for so long I can’t believe he attacked your child!” It’s rolling the dice with the safety of the public and it’s nonsense.

Edit - maybe if he’s thrown back to a low security environment with a high risk of offending again it will just work better eventually.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7308437

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7308437
I won’t speak to this specific individual. It’s horrible what happened. But again, the “virtually guaranteed to reoffend” generalization is false for individuals who committed crimes to due mental illness.
 

Drivesaitl

Finding Hemingway
Oct 8, 2017
49,966
64,543
Islands in the stream.
Its a tragedy what happened at the corn maze. I'm sure we'll find out more as to what happened. It's awful someone was killed.

I do think you need to be careful with the generalizations though. Generally people who have been found not criminally responsible due to mental disorder have very low recidivism rates. The notion of someone not being criminally responsible for their actions due to a mental disorder is also not a new concept from the last couple of decades or the current government in power, nor is it unique to Canada.

Reasonable post. Its tragic what occurred. What doesn't get noted in discussions like this is how many people in a community that have profound mental health problems and have even been aggressive and dangerous to others or self as a result of these conditions.

The individual in question that killed the other in the corn maze is one such example. The answer isn't easy. Some would have it to lock up that guy for the rest of his remaining days. But that isn't how our society is structured to be that draconian. The individual in question is sick their entire life. They don't get better. At times their actions/thoughts are more lucid, they are taking their medication, and abiding by rules and instructions. But many individuals like this are housed in community environments, group homes, facilities. AH is limited space and they can't all be there indefinitely. The vast majority of such individuals are in community.

People react to these events thinking somehow in isolation about the tragedy. The reality is hundreds of other such patients exist in a large city that have to be maintained in some way and that more than would be thought would be classified as dangerous.

Its also why I'm so vehemently opposed to our societies lax attitudes on drug abuse and even including Marijuana and other stronger Psychedelic's and drugs that can bring about profound and irreparable significant mental health problems that are essentially incurable. Its one thing to have in population those that have profound mental health difficulty due to genetic inheritance. Very little we can do about that. The ones that are inflicted by drug abuse, thats horrific multiplier and we can't adequately deal with all the people that have profound mental health problems now. The numbers are going up rapidly and mostly due to drug abuse.
 
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Drivesaitl

Finding Hemingway
Oct 8, 2017
49,966
64,543
Islands in the stream.
That’s different than deciding that people with a history of violence as a result of psychosis need to have a nice day out at a corn maze on break from the zero security environment they live in. We should just be thankful they didn’t hurt someone from the general public. “Not criminally responsible” doesn’t mean that measures shouldn’t be taken to protect the public from people like this that are virtually guaranteed to re-offend.

Just like the pit bull “oh wow they were so nice for so long I can’t believe he attacked your child!” It’s rolling the dice with the safety of the public and it’s nonsense.

Edit - maybe if he’s thrown back to a low security environment with a high risk of offending again it will just work better eventually.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7308437

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7308437
Is it different to you if a person has a history of profound violence or just the ones with a psychosis. Both can be dangerous, assault, harm, even murder people. I think when people delve into these discussions they are completely unaware of how many people may have such designations.

Violent crimes of all types have been on the increase again for years.


Thats 1500 violent crimes committed per year per100000 people which is far greater rate than people might think for "safe" Canada. Its only getting worse. As I've mentioned the amount and severity of people with profound mental health conditions that have committed violence is also exploding. You can't simply lock up every mentally ill offender for life. No easy answers.

Heres another way to look at it. Where do you put all these people? They can't all be incarcerated, they can't all be in Alberta Hospital. the vast, vast majority are not and are released either to family, their own recognizance, half way houses or group homes. The individual himself several times has begged to be put back in Alberta Hospital. There just are not many mental health beds. Theres like one bed for every 100-thousand people that might be in need of same.

These are some more stats for anybody interested.

 
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K1984

Registered User
Feb 7, 2008
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17,410
Is it different to you if a person has a history of profound violence or just the ones with a psychosis. Both can be dangerous, assault, harm, even murder people. I think when people delve into these discussions they are completely unaware of how many people may have such designations.

Violent crimes of all types have been on the increase again for years.


Thats 1500 violent crimes committed per year per100000 people which is far greater rate than people might think for "safe" Canada. Its only getting worse. As I've mentioned the amount and severity of people with profound mental health conditions that have committed violence is also exploding. You can't simply lock up every mentally ill offender for life. No easy answers.

Heres another way to look at it. Where do you put all these people? They can't all be incarcerated, they can't all be in Alberta Hospital. the vast, vast majority are not and are released either to family, their own recognizance, half way houses or group homes. The individual himself several times has begged to be put back in Alberta Hospital. There just are not many mental health beds. Theres like one bed for every 100-thousand people that might be in need of same.

These are some more stats for anybody interested.


For me it’s as simple as “is this person a risk to themselves and others in a low security environment?”

If the answer is “yes,” like it clearly was as every single step with this person, then that person shouldn’t be afforded the opportunity to act on those impulses to the detriment of others. I don’t really care what the cause of the issue is.

Are there people with mental disease that are managing it properly and are low risk? Yes. Was it this person? Clearly no. If you are determined by an independent body to be a risk to the public, as this person was just last October, you shouldn’t be going to a Corn Maze. Or anywhere else, frankly.
 

Drivesaitl

Finding Hemingway
Oct 8, 2017
49,966
64,543
Islands in the stream.
For me it’s as simple as “is this person a risk to themselves and others in a low security environment?”

If the answer is “yes,” like it clearly was as every single step with this person, then that person shouldn’t be afforded the opportunity to act on those impulses to the detriment of others. I don’t really care what the cause of the issue is.

Are there people with mental disease that are managing it properly and are low risk? Yes. Was it this person? Clearly no. If you are determined by an independent body to be a risk to the public, as this person was just last October, you shouldn’t be going to a Corn Maze. Or anywhere else, frankly.
Again, hazard a guess how many people you figure are determined to be a potential hazard to the public? Maybe you're confused with the dangerous offender designation. There are 900 of those in Canada. I would lock those up. This is not one and the same. There are thousands of mentally ill people in Canada that would have been determined to be a risk to public. its a much more common determination.

4% of people in Canada can have serious psychiatric conditions like Schizophrenia. Of these 3-5% can be violent offenders. For mental health reasons alone theres thousands in Canada that could be violent and a risk to the public. But this is a small part of the hundreds of thousands of people in Canada that could have been determined violent or a potential risk to the public at some point in their lives.

What do you suggest we do with all those people?

This is the difficulty with the layman view. Its typical for people to vastly underestimate the amount of violent offenders out there.

Again the shocking high number of 1500 violent crimes per 100K people should provided a glimpse of how many violent crimes occur EACH year in Canada.
You've pondered none of that in your assessment. Canada is riddled with individuals that have even been serially and regularly violent.

If its so simple provide a solution while having an understanding of the cost of incarceration per person on an even per diem basis.
 

K1984

Registered User
Feb 7, 2008
15,595
17,410
Again, hazard a guess how many people you figure are determined to be a potential hazard to the public? Maybe you're confused with the dangerous offender designation. There are 900 of those in Canada. I would lock those up. This is not one and the same. There are thousands of mentally ill people in Canada that would have been determined to be a risk to public. its a much more common determination.

4% of people in Canada can have serious psychiatric conditions like Schizophrenia. Of these 3-5% can be violent offenders. For mental health reasons alone theres thousands in Canada that could be violent and a risk to the public. But this is a small part of the hundreds of thousands of people in Canada that could have been determined violent or a potential risk to the public at some point in their lives.

What do you suggest we do with all those people?

This is the difficulty with the layman view. Its typical for people to vastly underestimate the amount of violent offenders out there.

Again the shocking high number of 1500 violent crimes per 100K people should provided a glimpse of how many violent crimes occur EACH year in Canada.
You've pondered none of that in your assessment. Canada is riddled with individuals that have even been serially and regularly violent.

If its so simple provide a solution while having an understanding of the cost of incarceration per person on an even per diem basis.

There aren’t unmanageable numbers of people with the rap sheet this perpetrator had. When you commit violent crimes over and over and over and over again, you shouldn’t be at corn mazes. It really isn’t that difficult of a proposition to manage.

I’m pretty clearly not talking about the “violent offender” that beat someone up in a bar fight or something. It’s the folks that have a repeated pattern of this behavior that get treated with kid gloves. If we don’t have the infrastructure to hold them, then it’s time we build it.
 

Drivesaitl

Finding Hemingway
Oct 8, 2017
49,966
64,543
Islands in the stream.
There aren’t unmanageable numbers of people with the rap sheet this perpetrator had. When you commit violent crimes over and over and over and over again, you shouldn’t be at corn mazes. It really isn’t that difficult of a proposition to manage.

I’m pretty clearly not talking about the “violent offender” that beat someone up in a bar fight or something. It’s the folks that have a repeated pattern of this behavior that get treated with kid gloves. If we don’t have the infrastructure to hold them, then it’s time we build it.
There actually are. I worked in the field for close to 40yrs. I know several of the people that run mental health programs in this city and province.

It is incredibly difficult, and really untenable to manage and house and treat all the vast numbers requiring utmost care.

In this country we don't even have enough facilities to incarcerate the number of people that have previously murdered people. .

The person in question had not murdered anybody before and his first assault was way back in 2008 assaulting his brother. From everybody that knew him and were in contact with him the view was generally he had been doing well. He'd been responsible. Taking his meds, requesting added care, even requesting multiple times to go back to Alberta Hospital. But again due to limited availability of beds that cannot be accommodated at all times.

But you know better than every Psychiatrist, review board etc.

Nobody asks to become severely mentally ill. Your response apparently is to incarcerate such individuals in secure confinement their entire lives because they've had a handful of violent episodes or threats made. Thats your solution.
 
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brentashton

Registered User
Jan 21, 2018
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Get off my lawn.... Or um outta my right turning lane.
Omg, what is wrong with some people?

Many years ago I had a boss that always said, when thinking of doing something, always ask yourself - “how will it look if my actions are published on the front page of the newspaper”. For anyone with even a small amount of conscience, they were wise words of guidance.
 

Stoneman89

Registered User
Feb 8, 2008
28,502
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K1984

Registered User
Feb 7, 2008
15,595
17,410
There actually are. I worked in the field for close to 40yrs. I know several of the people that run mental health programs in this city and province.

It is incredibly difficult, and really untenable to manage and house and treat all the vast numbers requiring utmost care.

In this country we don't even have enough facilities to incarcerate the number of people that have previously murdered people. .

The person in question had not murdered anybody before and his first assault was way back in 2008 assaulting his brother. From everybody that knew him and were in contact with him the view was generally he had been doing well. He'd been responsible. Taking his meds, requesting added care, even requesting multiple times to go back to Alberta Hospital. But again due to limited availability of beds that cannot be accommodated at all times.

But you know better than every Psychiatrist, review board etc.

Nobody asks to become severely mentally ill. Your response apparently is to incarcerate such individuals in secure confinement their entire lives because they've had a handful of violent episodes or threats made. Thats your solution.

According to the board that actually reviews these matters, he was determined “a significant threat to the safety of the public” just last October. Lo and behold, he did it again. Stunner. Not sure which “accounts” you’re referring to that say he was doing so great. Same board determined he was a “high risk for future violence and serious physical harm” as the cherry on top.

If you’re comfortable with folks with this track record and this recent, objective assessment running around in the public, then that’s great for you. I’m not, and I think I’m more than in my right to feel that way. Wonder what the family of the deceased thinks.
 

Drivesaitl

Finding Hemingway
Oct 8, 2017
49,966
64,543
Islands in the stream.
According to the board that actually reviews these matters, he was determined “a significant threat to the safety of the public” just last October. Lo and behold, he did it again. Stunner. Not sure which “accounts” you’re referring to that say he was doing so great. Same board determined he was a “high risk for future violence and serious physical harm” as the cherry on top.

If you’re comfortable with folks with this track record and this recent, objective assessment running around in the public, then that’s great for you. I’m not, and I think I’m more than in my right to feel that way. Wonder what the family of the deceased thinks.
According to the board that gave him conditional discharge and released him into a community setting....That WAS their determination several times with this patient. You must have missed that.


You're using after the fact judgement despite the review panel, all the professionals, that determined he could be in an open setting group home. You don't have a clue about this, but you're arguing about it with somebody that spent their whole career in this field. Again there would be hundreds of psychiatric patients just in this community that represent similar risk to the public and live in community setting and even on their own or with friends and family. You only hear about the individual that does commit a heinous crime or murder. You don't ever hear about the thousand patients with similar designation that reintegrate without tragedy.

I'm convinced you don't even know what open setting is or what parameters apply and how these decisions are triaged. This patient had had stays in Alberta Hospital but they cannot house everybody in these facilities indefinitely due to a major shortage in Psychiatric beds. Its probable that nearly every severely mentally patient in the group home has similar risk designation. Indeed the person he murdered, from the same group home had also assaulted people and been considered a risk to public.

You're also unaware that the assessment takes into account the level of care the individual is being provided with. He was in a grouphome, one with likely access to specialized services and resources specific to handling such patients in community facilities. The board decided the individual could not be released outright into the community. That he needed provision of care, which he was receiving.

You also ignored all this:

"Prior to the conditional discharge, Ferzli had been residing in a “semi-independent living” home in the community. The review board documents indicate that Ferzli was addressing his struggles with addictions and had made “significant progress” on that front, noting he had been chairing Narcotics Anonymous meetings at Alberta Hospital, a psychiatric facility that provides care through both inpatient and outpatient programs. But the tribunal also noted that at times Ferzli had been stressed and “presented with manic-type symptoms.”

The review board noted Ferzli is aware of his mental illness and takes medications but added that his “mental state is very fragile"

The offender even had been granted a conditional discharge. Not full, but conditional. Again NOBODY assessed that he was a risk to murder anybody. His noted aggression case history is being a risk to physically aggress against family or people he is housed with.

Maybe if you don't believe me on this you can listen to the lawyers, Psychiatrists, boards currently speaking about this matter. NOBODY could have predicted this individual would actually murder anybody. His risk profile was not that. His case history was not that. He was NOT classed as a dangerous offender, a completely different designation and category of risk. You don't know any of that but keep arguing.

This patient had been running NA meetings and other meetings. He was mentoring other addicts. Including some of the patients that are friends of his in setting he's been in. This is individual with a Schizo-Manic profile that had instances of functioning well for extended times.

Looking at the information available this individual was entrusted with helping others in facilities and had sustained moments of successfully managing his conditions.
 
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K1984

Registered User
Feb 7, 2008
15,595
17,410
According to the board that gave him conditional discharge and released him into a community setting....That WAS their determination several times with this patient. You must have missed that.


You're using after the fact judgement despite the review panel, all the professionals, that determined he could be in an open setting group home. You don't have a clue about this, but you're arguing about it with somebody that spent their whole career in this field. Again there would be hundreds of psychiatric patients just in this community that represent similar risk to the public and live in community setting and even on their own or with friends and family. You only hear about the individual that does commit a heinous crime or murder. You don't ever hear about the thousand patients with similar designation that reintegrate without tragedy.

I'm convinced you don't even know what open setting is or what parameters apply and how these decisions are triaged. This patient had had stays in Alberta Hospital but they cannot house everybody in these facilities indefinitely due to a major shortage in Psychiatric beds. Its probable that nearly every severely mentally patient in the group home has similar risk designation. Indeed the person he murdered, from the same group home had also assaulted people and been considered a risk to public.

You're also unaware that the assessment takes into account the level of care the individual is being provided with. He was in a grouphome, one with likely access to specialized services and resources specific to handling such patients in community facilities. The board decided the individual could not be released outright into the community. That he needed provision of care, which he was receiving.

You also ignored all this:

"Prior to the conditional discharge, Ferzli had been residing in a “semi-independent living” home in the community. The review board documents indicate that Ferzli was addressing his struggles with addictions and had made “significant progress” on that front, noting he had been chairing Narcotics Anonymous meetings at Alberta Hospital, a psychiatric facility that provides care through both inpatient and outpatient programs. But the tribunal also noted that at times Ferzli had been stressed and “presented with manic-type symptoms.”

The review board noted Ferzli is aware of his mental illness and takes medications but added that his “mental state is very fragile"

The offender even had been granted a conditional discharge. Not full, but conditional. Again NOBODY assessed that he was a risk to murder anybody. His noted aggression case history is being a risk to physically aggress against family or people he is housed with.

Maybe if you don't believe me on this you can listen to the lawyers, Psychiatrists, boards currently speaking about this matter. NOBODY could have predicted this individual would actually murder anybody. His risk profile was not that. His case history was not that. He was NOT classed as a dangerous offender, a completely different designation and category of risk. You don't know any of that but keep arguing.

This patient had been running NA meetings and other meetings. He was mentoring other addicts. Including some of the patients that are friends of his in setting he's been in. This is individual with a Schizo-Manic profile that had instances of functioning well for extended times.

Looking at the information available this individual was entrusted with helping others in facilities and had sustained moments of successfully managing his conditions.

That’s all great. Still killed someone, so sounds like lots of people got it wrong. “Murder” wasn’t in his profile, but violence was. As if that’s a relevant distinction. Comes out in stressful situations too, so naturally a corn maze would be a great place. It’s pretty obvious someone screwed up here, but we can keep pretending otherwise. Dead body is the result.

Need a lot more resources and space for psychotic patients so that rolling the dice isn’t a consideration anymore. As I stated repeatedly.
 
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