Olympics without NHLers.. Is it even worth it?

[Hanji]

Then they are cheaters as well if it happened during the exclusively Amatuer era of the Olympics.

Yep.

It's ironic how everybody blames the Eastern Block for 'cheating', yet a good portion of the West was doing the same crap.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Yep.

It's ironic how everybody blames the Eastern Block for 'cheating', yet a good portion of the West was doing the same crap.

The Eastern Block countries did it so blatantly and across all sports that it stands out.

 

[Oleksiak]

Could have been worth it if they'd sent the U20s, but I'm not going to go out of my way to watch a bunch of glorified beer leaguers. It will be interesting to see if Nolan Baumgartner causes any long-term damage to Power with his coaching though.

 

[ed bruin]

Well like you said, it is 2022, and people love to throw out words like "racist" and "xenophobe" when their argument holds no water.

What was your argument? What are the circumstances of the host country China?

 

[waitin425]

I mean, we are not even talking B-team for most of the big countries... and for Canada, is it even your D-team?

IIHF WC is in general even more exciting since atleast a few stars tend to show up. For me they could skip it or make a U20 tournament out of it.

It's not even Canada's T-team. Seriously...consider every single Canadian NHLer as well as most high end prospects.

I'll be watching for Power and McTavish only.

 

[Slimmy]

Could have been worth it if they'd sent the U20s, but I'm not going to go out of my way to watch a bunch of glorified beer leaguers. It will be interesting to see if Nolan Baumgartner causes any long-term damage to Power with his coaching though.

 

[Patera]

I guess all hockey fans would have liked to see NHL players in the Olympics, including me. The last best-on-best tournament was World Cup in 2016, and with those mixed teams, it was a disgrace for international hockey. The current situation, in which we can never be sure when will the next best-on-best tournament take place is completely untenable.

Still, I am really looking forward to the upcoming Olympic tournament. Despite the NHL absence, there is still plenty of good and interesting players and even 11 countries have a chance to win a medal. Describing an upcoming tournament by the words such as "beer league" or something like that is nothing more than underestimation of top European leagues.

 

[OneSniffTwoSniff]

I kinda feel bad for the guys going, imagine being a professional athlete that gets to furfill his dream by representing your country in the Olympics, yet pretty large portion of thfanbase of the sport doesn't care becose "it isnt best on best"

 

[Hanji]

The Eastern Block countries did it so blatantly and across all sports that it stands out.

Not really.
What, Western European sporting teams (across the board) being categorized as 'company teams' isn't blatant enough for you? That's how every Western country was likewise able to use professionals, sans the ultra laissez-faire sporting set ups of USA/Canada. Funny how this is rarely mentioned in the annals of history. Only the evil Eastern Block were cheaters!
Looks like you were ignorant of this too.

 

[Hanji]

Could have been worth it if they'd sent the U20s, but I'm not going to go out of my way to watch a bunch of glorified beer leaguers. It will be interesting to see if Nolan Baumgartner causes any long-term damage to Power with his coaching though.

That would be a mistake. These glorified beer leaguers would outright annihilate the U20s of any nation. It wouldn't even be a contest.

The Canada U20s would have difficulties even against China. I mean, year-in-out, they're barely better than the CIS all-stars when they play that yearly exhibition. Age and experience make all the difference here.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Not really.
What, Western European sporting teams (across the board) being categorized as 'company teams' isn't blatant enough for you? That's how every Western country was likewise able to use professionals, sans the ultra laissez-faire sporting set ups of USA/Canada. Funny how this is rarely mentioned in the annals of history. Only the evil Eastern Block were cheaters!
Looks like you were ignorant of this too.

Do you just make stuff up as you go along to be contrarian? The historical consensus is the Eastern block countries eroded the concept of amateurism at the Olympics. They had entire Olympic teams who were professionals in all but name very early on. Some western countries later found ways to side step the rules as well but this is considered as a response and a way to be competitive. Here are some references

"The Role of Sports in The Soviet Union - Guided History". blogs.bu.edu.

"Soviet Sports and Intelligence Activities" (PDF). Central Intelligence Agency. 28 December 1954

The use of professionals by the Eastern Block countries had a particularly pronounced advantage in a sport like hockey where professionals in other countries could be easily identified and therefore excluded.

Totalitarian regimes have a history of cheating to give advantage in international sports usually to further their propaganda goals. They need to find ways to glorify what are otherwise corrupt and deficient systems. Putin has done the same thing with systematic and state sponsored steroid use in his successor to the Soviet state.

Please don't call me ignorant.

 

[Hanji]

Do you just make stuff up as you go along to be contrarian? The historical consensus is the Eastern block countries eroded the concept of amateurism at the Olympics. They had entire Olympic teams who were professionals in all but name very early on. Some western countries later found ways to side step the rules as well but this is considered as a response and a way to be competitive. Here are some references

"The Role of Sports in The Soviet Union - Guided History". blogs.bu.edu.

"Soviet Sports and Intelligence Activities" (PDF). Central Intelligence Agency. 28 December 1954

The use of professionals by the Eastern Block countries had a particularly pronounced advantage in a sport like hockey where professionals in other countries could be easily identified and therefore excluded.

Totalitarian regimes have a history of cheating to give advantage in international sports usually to further their propaganda goals. They need to find ways to glorify what are otherwise corrupt and deficient systems. Putin has done the same thing with systematic and state sponsored steroid use in his successor to the Soviet state.

Please don't call me ignorant.

I'm not being a contrarian. I'm providing historical context to your initial point about amateursim in hockey. Now you're moving the goalpost and throwing in other sports, steroids, blah,blah, blah. All the talking points.
Btw, those links don't say anything about amateurism. They just state the obvious; sports was used as a political tool by the Communit Block. Wow, no kidding.


Here's more context - Sweden was using their best players (aka 'professionals') even before the Soviet Union played hockey.
Sweden at eliteprospects.com

 

[NigerianNightmare]

Is it necessary to turn everything into a West vs East debate and blaming Mr. Putin for all the wrongs in the world?

Both sides used sports as a political tool to prove that their lifestyle and society are more advanced. The East (USSR and East Germany) won more gold medals during the Cold War era. But it's all history now and we'll have a boring Olympic hockey tournament without the best players next month

 

[Silky Johnson]

I'm not being a contrarian. I'm providing historical context to your initial point about amateursim in hockey. Now you're moving the goalpost and throwing in other sports, steroids, blah,blah, blah. All the talking points.
Btw, those links don't say anything about amateurism. They just state the obvious; sports was used as a political tool by the Communit Block. Wow, no kidding.


Here's more context - Sweden was using their best players (aka 'professionals') even before the Soviet Union played hockey.
Sweden at eliteprospects.com

Sure then, if true Sweden are a bunch of cheaters as well. The trend was generally started by the Soviets and Eastern block countries. It is very clear what the historical consensus is and if you are going to go against it you will need some very powerful evidence. Even just read the Wikipedia articles on the topic. It clearly describes what I am saying

You need to read the links better. One is a summary of books directly on the topic. Dig further into those books. The other is an intelegence document talking about the Soviets wanting to enforce military discipline to their Olympic teams in the early 1950's. That is directly how they got around the amateur rules...by making them proffessionals through military positions.

The use of steroids is not moving the bar, its just more evidence of what totalitarian states will do to win. Their need/desire for propaganda is just move evidence of the same.

.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Is it necessary to turn everything into a West vs East debate and blaming Mr. Putin for all the wrongs in the world?

Both sides used sports as a political tool to prove that their lifestyle and society are more advanced. The East (USSR and East Germany) won more gold medals during the Cold War era. But it's all history now and we'll have a boring Olympic hockey tournament without the best players next month

I only accused Mr Putin and his government of cheating at the Olympics with steroids. Which is demonstratably true. That is why Russia cannot compete under its own flag.

 

[NigerianNightmare]

I only accused Mr Putin and his government of cheating at the Olympics with steroids. Which is demonstratably true. That is why Russia cannot compete under its own flag.

I don't want to turn this into a political discussion. However, I must admit that I've never seen President Putin and his government participating at the Olympic Games as athletes.

But maybe they use steroids when they do judo or play hockey with Pavel Bure!

 

[Hanji]

Sure then, if true Sweden are a bunch of cheaters as well. The trend was generally started by the Soviets and Eastern block countries. It is very clear what the historical consensus is and if you are going to go against it you will need some very powerful evidence. Even just read the Wikipedia articles on the topic. It clearly describes what I am saying

You need to read the links better. One is a summary of books directly on the topic. Dig further into those books. The other is an intelegence document talking about the Soviets wanting to enforce military discipline to their Olympic teams in the early 1950's. That is directly how they got around the amateur rules...by making them proffessionals through military positions.

The use of steroids is not moving the bar, its just more evidence of what totalitarian states will do to win. Their need/desire for propaganda is just move evidence of the same.

.

Yes we all know how the Soviet Union side-stepped amateurism. That's well documented. What's convenienty overlooked is the West doing this also. And not in response to the Soviet Union doing it. That's my point.

Keep in mind the USSR's first Olympics was in 1952. That's late in the game.
As it pertains to hockey, 'professionaism' existed from the very start, in the 1920s. Western European countries always sent their best.

And yes, you're moving the goalpost. In response to a post about olympic hockey you said "When the Soviet Union was around, communist block counties made a mockery of the "Amatuer" rules. They should have all medal removed for cheating."

 

[Silky Johnson]

Yes we all know how the Soviet Union side-stepped amateurism. That's well documented. What's convenienty overlooked is the West doing this also. And not in response to the Soviet Union doing it. That's my point.

Keep in mind the USSR's first Olympics was in 1952. That's late in the game.
As it pertains to hockey, 'professionaism' existed from the very start, in the 1920s. Western European countries always sent their best.

And yes, you're moving the goalpost. You're initial point was "When the Soviet Union was around, communist block counties made a mockery of the "Amatuer" rules. They should have all medal removed for cheating."

How is bringing up other examples of cheating moving the goalposts? Its just move evidence of willingness to cheat.

And I stand by my statement.

 

[Silky Johnson]

I don't want to turn this into a political discussion. However, I must admit that I've never seen President Putin and his government participating at the Olympic Games as athletes.

But maybe they use steroids when they do judo or play hockey with Pavel Bure!

WADA and the Court of Arbitration for Sport both found that Russia was guilty widespread STATE sponsored use of steroids and attempts to cover it up. This is a clear fact. You insult Putin if you think something this consequential was done without his approval

 

[Hanji]

How is bringing up other examples of cheating moving the goalposts? Its just move evidence of willingness to cheat.

And I stand by my statement.

We all know the USSR's willingness to cheat. But the topic was in regards to amateurism. They cheated, the West cheated.
And as it pertains to hockey - the West cheated first; well before (30 years) the USSR even fielded olympic teams in any sport.

This is indisputable fact. And it's what is conveniently overlooked on our side of the pond.

 

[Silky Johnson]

We all know the USSR's willingness to cheat. But the topic was in regards to amateurism. They cheated, the West cheated.
And as it pertains to hockey - the West cheated first; well before (30 years) the USSR even fielded olympic teams in any sport.

This is indisputable fact. And it's what is conveniently overlooked on our side of the pond.

And yet Jim Thorpe was stripped of his decathlon medals because he played a couple season of semi-pro baseball.

In all honesty I am having trouble finding information on these Western European abuses. I see that elite prospects shows the Swedish Olympic players also playing in Division 1 & 2. I have not been able to find out exactly how "proffessional" those leagues were in the 1950's. On the surface I do not understand how that would be allowed when US and Canadian proffessionals were specifically banned. It makes me think there is more to it. I also can't find much on the "company teams" you speak of. I am interested and I have a long flight tomorrow so I will do some research and get back to you.

At best your argument is going to come down to some western European countries got away with some shady stuff as well. I doubt it will come anywhere close to the length and breadth of the Eastern Block countries militarization/professionalisation of all Olympic sports participants for some pretty shady reasons. And yes I consider propaganda aiding the subjugation of 100's of millions of people behind the iron curtain shady.

Interestingly, your "whataboutism" would play very well in the current Soviet successor state.

 

[Silky Johnson]

The now of the country is not your propaganda fantasy though.

Have you spent any time there?

 

[Hanji]

And yet Jim Thorpe was stripped of his decathlon medals because he played a couple season of semi-pro baseball.

In all honesty I am having trouble finding information on these Western European abuses. I see that elite prospects shows the Swedish Olympic players also playing in Division 1 & 2. I have not been able to find out exactly how "proffessional" those leagues were in the 1950's. On the surface I do not understand how that would be allowed when US and Canadian proffessionals were specifically banned. It makes me think there is more to it. I also can't find much on the "company teams" you speak of. I am interested and I have a long flight tomorrow so I will do some research and get back to you.

At best your argument is going to come down to some western European countries got away with some shady stuff as well. I doubt it will come anywhere close to the length and breadth of the Eastern Block countries militarization/professionalisation of all Olympic sports participants for some pretty shady reasons. And yes I consider propaganda aiding the subjugation of 100's of millions of people behind the iron curtain shady.

Interestingly, your "whataboutism" would play very well in the current Soviet successor state.

Please do so.
You'll find out the IIHF, even before the Soviets joined, played a big role in defining 'amateurism' for our sport. This was then incorporated by the IOC,. See Bunny Ahearne

Western European countries were instrumental in probiting Canada/USA from using their best players. See IIHF congress as late as the early 1950s as proof. And this was before the Soviet Union played a single international game.

Frankly, it wasn't an East/West thing. The genesis of it all stemmed from every country acting in their own self-interest. The IIHF was corrupt as hell.
It was never an issue in North America early on because Canada always won regardless and the US had little influence in the sport then. But things started to come to a head when Canada stopped winning.

This is basic international hockey history.

 

[Silky Johnson]

Please do so.
You'll find out the IIHF, even before the Soviets joined, played a big role in defining 'amateurism' for our sport. This was then incorporated by the IOC,. See Bunny Ahearne

Western European countries were instrumental in probiting Canada/USA from using their best players. See IIHF congress as late as the early 1950s as proof. And this was before the Soviet Union played a single international game.

Frankly, it wasn't an East/West thing. The genesis of it all stemmed from every country acting in their own self-interest. The IIHF was corrupt as hell.
It was never an issue in North America early on because Canada always won regardless and the US had little influence in the sport then. But things started to come to a head when Canada stopped winning.

This is basic international hockey history.

References?

 

[Atas2000]

Have you spent any time there?

Have you? Just asking because people act like they've been to half the world at least.