Value of: Oliver Kylington as an RFA

[Double Dion]

I view him highly lol, I would certainly ask for a 1st. I just dont see any team realistically giving that

They've paid 1sts+ for Dmen who are older than him and less good. What does a 2nd round pick do for us?

Unless he's asking for more than 4.11 you sign him. Mackey is ready to play, but we still need another defenseman next year even with him for our top 6. It's probably a good idea to have 8 guys who can play in your system. Without Kylington we have 4 heading into next season.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

They've paid 1sts+ for Dmen who are older than him and less good. What does a 2nd round pick do for us?

Unless he's asking for more than 4.11 you sign him. Mackey is ready to play, but we still need another defenseman next year even with him for our top 6. It's probably a good idea to have 8 guys who can play in your system. Without Kylington we have 4 heading into next season.

I edit my post, go reread it.

The issue is there are very few defensemen that have followed a similar development curve. Weegar comes to mind as somewhat similar but so does Gustafsson. 1 good season after multiple underwhelming ones would make any buyer hesitant. I believe hole heartedly that he will not be traded simply because he could turn turn out to be a true gem and IMO that is a risk worth taking.

Think of it like Deal or No Deal. Ever round the banker offers a medium price of the remaining cases left (some high value, some low). That is what a team would offer for him right now.

 

[Unbiased Fan]

How does that math work?

Well in my eyes it’d cost a 2nd to dump Monahan/Lucic and they also get a 3rd so basically a 2nd and 3rd for Klyington

 

[Unbiased Fan]

Most Flames fans view him a lot higher than the one you're posting with. I wouldn't move him for less than a top half 1st and only if he wants more than 4.11M on his next deal.

So you’d rather pay him 4.5 mil then trade him?

 

[Double Dion]

I edit my post, go reread it.

The issue is there are very few defensemen that have followed a similar development curve. Weegar comes to mind as somewhat similar but so does Gustafsson. 1 good season after multiple underwhelming ones would make any buyer hesitant. I believe hole heartedly that he will not be traded simply because he could turn turn out to be a true gem and IMO that is a risk worth taking.

Think of it like Deal or No Deal. Ever round the banker offers a medium price of the remaining cases left (some high value, some low). That is what a team would offer for him right now.

This is where we disagree. I think the issue with Kylington was lack of opportunity, not subpar seasons. He was very, very dominant in the AHL. I think he was better than Valimaki who played ahead of him. This sometimes happens where high picks play ahead of later picks because of the investment in them.

Good example would be guys like Janko and Lazar playing ahead of Mangiapane in 2018 despite them being clearly inferior players. It's happening right now too. Mackey and Phillips both deserved to be here and all anyone can talk about in terms of call ups are Valimaki and Pelletier.

 

[Double Dion]

So you’d rather pay him 4.5 mil then trade him?

Read that post again. More than 4.11 and I'm letting him sit or trading him. The offer sheet compensation above 4.11 is where the player at that price becomes worth less than the 1st and 3rd we'd get back in my opinion.

 

[hotcabbagesoup]

Why can't he score though? He's way outscored by Rasmus Andersson of all people and Kylington started off hot too.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Why can't he score though? He's way outscored by Rasmus Andersson of all people and Kylington started off hot too.

He was playing hurt for a bit. He’s like Rasmus and Hanifin. Maybe not an elite offensive player, but he’ll put up a solid 30-50 points a year on the backend because of his skill set.

 

[Unbiased Fan]

Read that post again. More than 4.11 and I'm letting him sit or trading him. The offer sheet compensation above 4.11 is where the player at that price becomes worth less than the 1st and 3rd we'd get back in my opinion.

Who’d pay a 1st for Klyington knowing he wants over 4 million?

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

Well in my eyes it’d cost a 2nd to dump Monahan/Lucic and they also get a 3rd so basically a 2nd and 3rd for Klyington

Maybe Lucic bit it wont cost a 2nd to move Monahan

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

This is where we disagree. I think the issue with Kylington was lack of opportunity, not subpar seasons. He was very, very dominant in the AHL. I think he was better than Valimaki who played ahead of him. This sometimes happens where high picks play ahead of later picks because of the investment in them.

Good example would be guys like Janko and Lazar playing ahead of Mangiapane in 2018 despite them being clearly inferior players. It's happening right now too. Mackey and Phillips both deserved to be here and all anyone can talk about in terms of call ups are Valimaki and Pelletier.

Here's the flaw with your view though, Valimaki missed 1.5 seasons due to injury. If Kylington was really that good he had more than enough time to seize the opportunity. Alas he did not even when given the chance meaning he clearly was not good enough.

Mackey has a lower ceiling than Valimaki but plays a very physical style. He fits a 3rd pair role better. I disagree completely on Phillips vs Pelletier though. That has way less to do with draft position and way more to do with experience. Pelletier is a rookie and is already playing at a similar production level to Phillips. If Phillips was truly NHL caliber i would have caught Sutter's eyes more in camp. To me he is Calgary's version of Jeremy Bracco

 

[Double Dion]

Who’d pay a 1st for Klyington knowing he wants over 4 million?

Well there was a Devils fan earlier willing to pay their 5thOA and a 3rd for him while paying him 5M long term. I think paying 4M for a solid #3 is pretty good value. Especially one with a high ceiling like Kylington.

 

[Double Dion]

Here's the flaw with your view though, Valimaki missed 1.5 seasons due to injury. If Kylington was really that good he had more than enough time to seize the opportunity. Alas he did not even when given the chance meaning he clearly was not good enough.

Mackey has a lower ceiling than Valimaki but plays a very physical style. He fits a 3rd pair role better. I disagree completely on Phillips vs Pelletier though. That has way less to do with draft position and way more to do with experience. Pelletier is a rookie and is already playing at a similar production level to Phillips. If Phillips was truly NHL caliber i would have caught Sutter's eyes more in camp. To me he is Calgary's version of Jeremy Bracco

You and I see very different things watching the same game. Valimaki is by far the worst defenseman we have played this year. He's worse than Stone and Mackey by quite a bit. He's not even in the conversation for me with Kylington.

Pelletier is a good prospect. The thing he has going for him is his age. Phillips is better at literally everything. When Pelletier spent that 5 game stretch away from him how did he do? Went from PPG guy to 2 point in 5 games. Small sample size granted, but that's been the results of every player Phillips had played with.

You'll see when Phillips is a regular middle 6 guy in the NHL. Just like you saw with Kylington and what Monahan is away from Gaudreau.

I don't think Kylington ever had an opportunity with a competent coach. His skill set can't be taught. The way he exits the zone is basically what made TJ Brodie a top pairing guy for a decade. They are very similar players.

 

[Unbiased Fan]

Maybe Lucic bit it wont cost a 2nd to move Monahan

You think Monahan has more value then Lucic? Atleast Lucic brings a physical presence?

Post automatically merged: Apr 30, 2022

Well there was a Devils fan earlier willing to pay their 5thOA and a 3rd for him while paying him 5M long term. I think paying 4M for a solid #3 is pretty good value. Especially one with a high ceiling like Kylington.

Wow that’s steep I see him as a LH Lilijgren as a leafs fan.

 

[Double Dion]

You think Monahan has more value then Lucic? Atleast Lucic brings a physical presence?

Post automatically merged: Apr 30, 2022

Wow that’s steep I see him as a LH Lilijgren as a leafs fan.

I see Lucic as costing nothing to move and Monahan as costing to move. Seravelli did say there's lots of interest in Monahan, but I'm skeptical of that.

Kylington is most definitely not a LHD Lilijgren. The pairing of Tanev and Kylington has the 5th best numbers of any pairing in the league. The Flames blue line as a whole has been unreal this year actually. Best blueline I've ever seen in Calgary including the glory years of the late 80s and the mid 2000s.

 

[Some Other Flame]

If Kylington was really that good he had more than enough time to seize the opportunity. Alas he did not even when given the chance meaning he clearly was not good enough.

None of this true.

And it's a very antiquated if not lazy approach given that it fails to account for all the garbage coaches the Flames kept hiring or the rumors that Treliving was interfering in lineup decisions.

It's not a coincidence that under, the first good NHL coach Treliving managed to hire, Kylington was given his first real opportunity in the top four and has since taken off. And neither MacKay nor Valiamki are anywhere near as good in transition of offensively.

If Treliving's smart, he'll offer Kylington the same contract Andersson has ; 6yrs @ 4.55M per.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

You and I see very different things watching the same game. Valimaki is by far the worst defenseman we have played this year. He's worse than Stone and Mackey by quite a bit. He's not even in the conversation for me with Kylington.

Pelletier is a good prospect. The thing he has going for him is his age. Phillips is better at literally everything. When Pelletier spent that 5 game stretch away from him how did he do? Went from PPG guy to 2 point in 5 games. Small sample size granted, but that's been the results of every player Phillips had played with.

You'll see when Phillips is a regular middle 6 guy in the NHL. Just like you saw with Kylington and what Monahan is away from Gaudreau.

I don't think Kylington ever had an opportunity with a competent coach. His skill set can't be taught. The way he exits the zone is basically what made TJ Brodie a top pairing guy for a decade. They are very similar players.

who said anything about Valimaki this year? Im talking purely about potential. I also never compared him to Kylington this year.

You keep putting words in my mouth about Kylington, Monahan has literally had both of his hips replaced in the last 2 seasons where he played through the injury for a long stretch (the same 2 years he didnt have 20+ goals).

I would be fairly surprised if Phillips becomes a regular top 6 player at this point. But hey while were calling out all my takes I notice how you conveniently ignore be being 100% correct on Hanifin being a steal of a contract and not someone worth throwing away

 

[Double Dion]

who said anything about Valimaki this year? Im talking purely about potential. I also never compared him to Kylington this year.

You keep putting words in my mouth about Kylington, Monahan has literally had both of his hips replaced in the last 2 seasons where he played through the injury for a long stretch (the same 2 years he didnt have 20+ goals).

I would be fairly surprised if Phillips becomes a regular top 6 player at this point. But hey while were calling out all my takes I notice how you conveniently ignore be being 100% correct on Hanifin being a steal of a contract and not someone worth throwing away

It was Rasmus I said we should expose not Hanifin. Yes, I was wrong about that. Maybe someone else mentioned Hanifin. I thought he was excellent last season and even better this one. Rasmus was brutal last year. I wrongly assumed he'd gone back to training less with the long term deal.

I said middle six for Phillips. I think he's that right now if they'd actually play him.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

None of this true.

And it's a very antiquated if not lazy approach given that it fails to account for all the garbage coaches the Flames kept hiring or the rumors that Treliving was interfering in lineup decisions.

It's not a coincidence that under, the first good NHL coach Treliving managed to hire, Kylington was given his first real opportunity in the top four and has since taken off. And neither MacKay nor Valiamki are anywhere near as good in transition of offensively.

If Treliving's smart, he'll offer Kylington the same contract Andersson has ; 6yrs @ 4.55M per.

This is also a lazy way of thinking, you are both claiming a baseless conspiracy from Tre, and that all the coaches were bad. Sutter is obviously an elite coach but both Peters and Hartley were legitimately coaches.

You also seem to forget that Sutter came in last year and did not trust Kylington then either.

 

[Double Dion]

This is also a lazy way of thinking, you are both claiming a baseless conspiracy from Tre, and that all the coaches were bad. Sutter is obviously an elite coach but both Peters and Hartley were legitimately coaches.

You also seem to forget that Sutter came in last year and did not trust Kylington then either.

Peters made the playoffs once in his coaching career man. Neither has had an NHL job since. (Albeit Peters likely not for his coaching ability).

I'm not insinuating Treliving had some sort of conspiratorial stance against Kylington. Just that like most GMs he wanted the guy he talked up (Valimaki) played. Treliving himself said Oliver had been the forgotten man at the end of last season and deserved better from the organization in his year end interview with Steinberg.

 

[Some Other Flame]

This is also a lazy way of thinking, you are both claiming a baseless conspiracy from Tre, and that all the coaches were bad. Sutter is obviously an elite coach but both Peters and Hartley were legitimately coaches.

You also seem to forget that Sutter came in last year and did not trust Kylington then either.

Hartley was fired a whole season after Kylington was drafted. He's completely irrelevant, not to mention wasn't even hired by Treliving.

Peters was the definition of mediocre. A one trick pony at best who had no answers when things got hard. Gulutzan and Ward were absolute garbage and that's simply undeniable. And I literally called Treliving's alleged meddling a rumor.

Also, Sutter came in saying repeatedly that he wasn't going to massively change things up mid season. There simply wasn't time for that, hence leaving a very injured and useless Monahan on the top line for another 15 or 20 games or whatever. But after a summer and training camp to properly evaluate things, look how much changed. Not to mention what Sutter himself said about Kylington

“We think the game alike, a lot,” Sutter said of Kylington.

Kylington is the most gifted skater among the Flames’ back-end options. And, as the coach put it plainly: “We need mobility back there. I mean, that’s obvious.”

Literally the same story with Bennett. Coaching matters and cheap, garbage bin hires have cost the Flames dearly over the years.

 

[Ledge And Dairy]

It was Rasmus I said we should expose not Hanifin. Yes, I was wrong about that. Maybe someone else mentioned Hanifin. I thought he was excellent last season and even better this one. Rasmus was brutal last year. I wrongly assumed he'd gone back to training less with the long term deal.

I said middle six for Phillips. I think he's that right now if they'd actually play him.

Im not talking about expansion and I also never said you mentioned Hanifin. I'm talking about 2 and 3 years ago before Tanev when Hanifin played almost strictly with Harmonic. Only a few Flames fans on here didn't constantly try to ship Hanifin out for pennies thinking he was a bust. I was one of the few that defended him.

Peters made the playoffs once in his coaching career man. Neither has had an NHL job since. (Albeit Peters likely not for his coaching ability).

I'm not insinuating Treliving had some sort of conspiratorial stance against Kylington. Just that like most GMs he wanted the guy he talked up (Valimaki) played. Treliving himself said Oliver had been the forgotten man at the end of last season and deserved better from the organization in his year end interview with Steinberg.

Hartley won the JA award that and a Stanley cup. He had a good resume too. I wpuld not be surprised if he coaches an NHL team again some day.

Peters had only head coached 4 season on a rebuilding team before coming to Calgary and winning the West in his 1st year. He was a good coach despite not being a good person.

Sutter is very likely to win the JA this year and has a hell of a track record, he is very likely a HoF coach after he retires.

 

[Double Dion]

Im not talking about expansion and I also never said you mentioned Hanifin. I'm talking about 2 and 3 years ago before Tanev when Hanifin played almost strictly with Harmonic. Only a few Flames fans on here didn't constantly try to ship Hanifin out for pennies thinking he was a bust. I was one of the few that defended him.


Hartley won the JA award that and a Stanley cup. He had a good resume too. I wpuld not be surprised if he coaches an NHL team again some day.

Peters had only head coached 4 season on a rebuilding team before coming to Calgary and winning the West in his 1st year. He was a good coach despite not being a good person.

Sutter is very likely to win the JA this year and has a hell of a track record, he is very likely a HoF coach after he retires.

Hartley was not a good coach. He won a Jack Adams based purely on luck. His team was badly outclassed to the point their nickname was "the find a way Flames."

He had 6 HOFers on the roster that won the cup. He also had guys like Foote, Deadmarsh, Hejduk and Tanguay who were all top 6 or top pairing guys. It's a indictment on him that those guys only won one cup. Toss up between that team, Detroit and the early 90s Pens on who the best roster of my lifetime was.

If he was a good coach he would be coaching in the NHL, not getting fired from coaching the Latvian national team. Lots of his players commented on how much better prepared practices and games were under Peters who was a pretty average coach at best.