Post-Game Talk: Old Joe the Science Bro

[kovazub94]

Feels crazy to me that we lost that game.

Totally dominated the first half of it.

Still up 2-1 with a Kreider breakaway that could have sealed it.

Igor leaky bad decisions by lavy. Just a game we absolutely should have won

Yup, I don’t think they played that bad of a game at all. Just a string of unfortunate events. Kreider converts and Goodrow doesn’t forget to keep the stick down and it’s a different outcome and post-game tone.

 

[Rongomania]

Was glad no one brought up Wedgewood’s goalie mask last night, Was afraid I was going to get the blame for the loss. Lol. Honestly thought he was good not great. Shesty was just not good at all. Hopefully he shakes off the rust.

Bahaha. It's ok for his second game back after a stretch out to be shitty. He wasn't 'all world' against the devils but pulled out the W. If in ten games he looks like this, that may be concerning, though I wouldn't bet on that.

Worst loss I've seen in person. We were feeling pretty good going into the 3rd. Beers were flowing. Then they shit the bed. Beers kept flowing.

Ah man, poor Mike from Houston. The full spectrum of sporting event drunkenness was experienced.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I'm watching the MSG postgame analysis on youtube and I have no idea what you are saying. At no point is his glove hand involved in that play.

He covered the puck and lifted his glove before a whistle sounded and they poked it in. Even Joe mentioned it.

 

[LOFIN]

Losses happen, Dallas is a good team who were eager to bounce back after their weekend.

Mika is worrisome. Don't feed me that "he starts slow" narrative. He has started this badly once, during the Covid-season. It has not been this bad in a while.

 

[Mike in Houston]

Ah man, poor Mike from Houston. The full spectrum of sporting event drunkenness was experienced.

It's ok. We'll be up in NYC in March for the NJ and STL games. Hopefully, it'll only be on the good side of said spectrum. LOL!

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Its just really odd that the Stars would even be able to "reverse" challenge that play.

If the Refs deem that there is no goal on the ice due to goaltender interference and that decision can be challenged, then why cant a coach challenge a high sticking penalty thats due to a teammates stick or pucks hitting the glass before going out of the rink for a delay of game?

So you say its only goals - thats fine - but can you have them review an offside of your own team minutes before a goal is scored on you? I would say yes, according to what happened last night.

I mean they got the call right, which in the end is what you want to see - it was just an unconventional way of reaching that point.

 

[Rongomania]

It's ok. We'll be up in NYC in March for the NJ and STL games. Hopefully, it'll only be on the good side of said spectrum. LOL!

Sweet. Hopefully we're rollin' at that point.

 

[McRanger92]

That was a healthy scratch worthy performance by Kakko. Weak on pucks, bad passes, even his goal he was trying to pass out of a chance 6 inches from the net. It was very telling on the power play in the first when Miller yelled at him for constantly whacking his stick on the ice calling for the puck. The puck dies on his stick. The 3rd goal happened because Kakko got bullied on the boards by Suter.

I’m usually a defender of his but that was a disheartening game. 2.1 million can go pretty far at the deadline. Just sayin.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

The other thought that came to mind while we are talking about how to circumvent the rules:

If you have too many men on the ice and its a delayed penalty - why not send the entire team over the boards to stop the play?

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

While we were bound to lose again sooner or later, last night was the first game we've been outcoached. Igor clearly had a bad game. Jones and Schneider proved yet again they are a dumpster fire and need sheltered minutes.

Yet after an outstanding first period, a mediocre second, and a brutal third, they were still down 2 goals late with a chance to tie. Challenging the Dallas goal was the wrong call. Pulling the goalie on the PP with 4 minutes left was the wrong call (both times).

Video replay can choke on an entire bag of dicks. I don't care that the calls were right, because when the calls go the other way, they're never made right. As far as I'm concerned the league owes us about 5 BS calls in our favor just to get back to even. In the past week, we've learned that when the whistle doesn't blow and is not intended to blow, but the puck goes in, it's still not a goal...but when the whistle blows before the puck goes in, it's still a goal. You don't have to make a distinct kicking motion for the puck crossing the goal line to not count, the "call on the ice" can be changed from the actual call on the ice before going to replay, and a coach can reverse challenge a no-goal call too apparently. The more leagues drag on, the more I hate video replay in general. Let the refs go back to calling the plays on the ice and if they get it wrong, oh well, at least bad calls will happen both ways with human referees than a bunch of disphits watching a video monitor trying to place their finger on the scale. Again, this is not about last night. This is about 0 for the season, and if anyone wants to go back farther, a probably no higher than 25% success rate overall on these stupid things. The explanations often make literally no sense anyway, so it's not like delaying games for up to 7 minutes at a time has made the on-ice product better. Besides, nothing takes the air out of an electric game atmosphere more than a huge late goal resulting in 5 minutes of hushed silence while the Jeopardy music plays and everyone waits for a decision that will invariably either be wrong, or right for the wrong reason anyway. Kill video replay with fire already.

In the third, I really wanted to see Laviolette ride 10-16-13 more. That line should've been playing every other shift, and should've alternated with 20-17-24 and 50-21-26 with Pitlick subbing in for Wheeler as needed, and Bonino taking faceoffs as needed then going right off. Zibanejad absolutely deserved to be stapled to the bench during the third period last night, though you give him a chance when they get the PP with 4 minutes left. He was soft, consistently passed up good shots and made bad plays in scoring areas, and he was not willing to go into the corner and dig out pucks. He floated in the middle of the offensive zone most of the night looking for "shots" and didn't take them when he got them, and on the rare chance he did either missed the net or hit the goalie in the chest. He's on pace for 10 goals and does not deserve 21 minutes a game right now. There was no reason to put him between 10 and 13 last night and break up what had been a pretty good thing, even if it was just an attempt to "get him going." He needs to ride pine for a game, sulk, then immediately be given an opportunity tomorrow...not potentially drag down the best NYR 5 on 5 line when they need a tying goal.

Would also rather see Goodrow with Kakko and Cuylle. Give that line a little more snarl and maybe some of it will rub off on Kakko. It's telling that even for Kakko's goal, it came on an attempted pass/stickhandle in a shooting situation when the D spiked the puck into his own net. At this point I'd also throw Vesey on with 20 and 93 and just call that line the third line at even strength.

Coming back with Jones and Schneider after a TV timeout was inexcusable. That pair has also got to be better about changing opportunistically. They consistently don't change after 30 seconds during second periods, and get pinned in their own end for long shifts. No other pair consistently does this. It's twice a game, every game with those two. I still hold that Zac Jones is not an NHL defenseman, and Fox can't get back soon enough. I just hope that this can at least be a showcase so we can get something valuable back for the second coming of Matt Gilroy/Thomas Pock/Mike Mottau.

It was bound to happen sooner or later, but even as bad as Igor was this game was winnable. Hopefully Laviolette is able to look at some of what he did critically because there were plenty of takeaways re: coaching last night. I've been largely uncritical of what Lav and the staff have done thus far, because most of it has made sense, but last night definitely needs a look in the mirror on the part of the coaching staff, especially some of the decisions in the third period.

 

[will1066]

Kreider and Zibanejad, both them need to score in big situations, because that's what they're paid to do. People can talk all day long about how they don't let in goals against and all their other great underlying stuff. Richard Nash was a great defensive forward when he couldn't find the back of the net, too, yet history does not focus on his defense.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

As i said earlier. I went from "This team is a wagon, happy i put $50 on them winning the cup this year" to "what is going on here?" In a matter of 5 mins.

Kreider and Zibanejad, both them need to score in big situations, because that's what they're paid to do. People can talk all day long about how they don't let in goals against and all their other great underlying stuff. Richard Nash was a great defensive forward when he couldn't find the back of the net, too, yet history does not focus on his defense.

The definition of insanity, doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Kreider and Zibs are good together on the pk and pp, but not good 5 on 5, split them up. If it gets one guy or the other scoring 5 on 5 its a win

 

[Shesterkybomb]

While we were bound to lose again sooner or later, last night was the first game we've been outcoached. Igor clearly had a bad game. Jones and Schneider proved yet again they are a dumpster fire and need sheltered minutes.

Yet after an outstanding first period, a mediocre second, and a brutal third, they were still down 2 goals late with a chance to tie. Challenging the Dallas goal was the wrong call. Pulling the goalie on the PP with 4 minutes left was the wrong call (both times).

Video replay can choke on an entire bag of dicks. I don't care that the calls were right, because when the calls go the other way, they're never made right. As far as I'm concerned the league owes us about 5 BS calls in our favor just to get back to even. In the past week, we've learned that when the whistle doesn't blow and is not intended to blow, but the puck goes in, it's still not a goal...but when the whistle blows before the puck goes in, it's still a goal. You don't have to make a distinct kicking motion for the puck crossing the goal line to not count, the "call on the ice" can be changed from the actual call on the ice before going to replay, and a coach can reverse challenge a no-goal call too apparently. The more leagues drag on, the more I hate video replay in general. Let the refs go back to calling the plays on the ice and if they get it wrong, oh well, at least bad calls will happen both ways with human referees than a bunch of disphits watching a video monitor trying to place their finger on the scale. Again, this is not about last night. This is about 0 for the season, and if anyone wants to go back farther, a probably no higher than 25% success rate overall on these stupid things. The explanations often make literally no sense anyway, so it's not like delaying games for up to 7 minutes at a time has made the on-ice product better. Besides, nothing takes the air out of an electric game atmosphere more than a huge late goal resulting in 5 minutes of hushed silence while the Jeopardy music plays and everyone waits for a decision that will invariably either be wrong, or right for the wrong reason anyway. Kill video replay with fire already.

In the third, I really wanted to see Laviolette ride 10-16-13 more. That line should've been playing every other shift, and should've alternated with 20-17-24 and 50-21-26 with Pitlick subbing in for Wheeler as needed, and Bonino taking faceoffs as needed then going right off. Zibanejad absolutely deserved to be stapled to the bench during the third period last night, though you give him a chance when they get the PP with 4 minutes left. He was soft, consistently passed up good shots and made bad plays in scoring areas, and he was not willing to go into the corner and dig out pucks. He floated in the middle of the offensive zone most of the night looking for "shots" and didn't take them when he got them, and on the rare chance he did either missed the net or hit the goalie in the chest. He's on pace for 10 goals and does not deserve 21 minutes a game right now. There was no reason to put him between 10 and 13 last night and break up what had been a pretty good thing, even if it was just an attempt to "get him going." He needs to ride pine for a game, sulk, then immediately be given an opportunity tomorrow...not potentially drag down the best NYR 5 on 5 line when they need a tying goal.

Would also rather see Goodrow with Kakko and Cuylle. Give that line a little more snarl and maybe some of it will rub off on Kakko. It's telling that even for Kakko's goal, it came on an attempted pass/stickhandle in a shooting situation when the D spiked the puck into his own net. At this point I'd also throw Vesey on with 20 and 93 and just call that line the third line at even strength.

Coming back with Jones and Schneider after a TV timeout was inexcusable. That pair has also got to be better about changing opportunistically. They consistently don't change after 30 seconds during second periods, and get pinned in their own end for long shifts. No other pair consistently does this. It's twice a game, every game with those two. I still hold that Zac Jones is not an NHL defenseman, and Fox can't get back soon enough. I just hope that this can at least be a showcase so we can get something valuable back for the second coming of Matt Gilroy/Thomas Pock/Mike Mottau.

It was bound to happen sooner or later, but even as bad as Igor was this game was winnable. Hopefully Laviolette is able to look at some of what he did critically because there were plenty of takeaways re: coaching last night. I've been largely uncritical of what Lav and the staff have done thus far, because most of it has made sense, but last night definitely needs a look in the mirror on the part of the coaching staff, especially some of the decisions in the third period.

The only perplexing things coaching wise to me was putting Laf and Panarin with Zib, who was struggling to do anything while Trochek was our best center and also I hate pulling the goalie on a pp with that much time left, i never did it as a coach, there's absolutely no need to give a team free shots at an empty net without having icings.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Kreider and Zibanejad, both them need to score in big situations, because that's what they're paid to do. People can talk all day long about how they don't let in goals against and all their other great underlying stuff. Richard Nash was a great defensive forward when he couldn't find the back of the net, too, yet history does not focus on his defense.

This reminded me of Nick Fotiu's famous comments about Rick Nash: ""I would hear people say, 'At least he's playing defensive hockey.' No one cares about that," said Fotiu. "Back-checking my (butt). Score some goals."

 

[romba]

Only saw most of the 3rd but our forwards did not come back to the house to defend the rebound scrum and take a man. Laf in particular I noticed was hovering on the side after doing a flyby stick whack, waiting for an outlet pass to go do fun things, very unlike him.

Shesty's puck awareness is shit right now and too many pucks finding a way through him needless to say.

Mika continues to be absolutely useless on the PP though I saw some signs of life 5 on 5 (contrary to board opinion).

Goodrow continues to flip it to the blue line right to the opposing D who hold the puck in and he does this crap at least twice a game, come on man even Trouba's pretty much past that stage of Gallantitis. Wait I just realized, he has a newborn too? Is this a leaguewide thing or only NYR dads can't play for shit for 8 months after having a baby.

Lastly, I abhor the 'pull the goalie on the PP' move. Unless it somehow makes each goal have twice the value it makes no sense to me. Our odds of scoring on the PP are roughly 30% without the goalie pulled, maybe you get a 10% boost from the extra attacker, but the opposition gets like a 50% boost when we pull the goalie. 4 minutes is plenty of time to score with a goalie and then you pull the goalie for the last one.

 

[Machinehead]

Only saw most of the 3rd but our forwards did not come back to the house to defend the rebound scrum and take a man. Laf in particular I noticed was hovering on the side after doing a flyby stick whack, waiting for an outlet pass to go do fun things, very unlike him.

Shesty's puck awareness is shit right now and too many pucks finding a way through him needless to say.

Mika continues to be absolutely useless on the PP though I saw some signs of life 5 on 5 (contrary to board opinion).

Goudrow continues to flip it to the blue line right to the opposing D who hold the puck in and he does this crap at least twice a game, come on man even Trouba's pretty much past that stage of Gallantitis. Wait I just realized, he has a newborn too? Is this a leaguewide thing or only NYR dads can't play for shit for 8 months after having a baby.

Lastly, I abhor the 'pull the goalie on the PP' move. Unless it somehow makes each goal have twice the value it makes no sense to me. Our odds of scoring on the PP are roughly 30% without the goalie pulled, maybe you get a 10% boost from the extra attacker, but the opposition gets like a 50% boost when we pull the goalie. 4 minutes is plenty of time to score with a goalie and then you pull the goalie for the last one.

Back in 2013-14, pulling your goalie early was a magic bullet. Teams were tying the game every time they did it.

Most of that sample was madman Patrick Roy who now can't find a job. In no other year did pulling early lead to scoring with any consistency.

Coaches around the league finally go full boar into analytics and that's what they go with. A bad sample driven by a universally disliked coach.

 

[romba]

Back in 2013-14, pulling your goalie early was a magic bullet. Teams were tying the game every time they did it.

Most of that sample was madman Patrick Roy who now can't find a job. In no other year did pulling early lead to scoring with any consistency.

Coaches around the league finally go full boar into analytics and that's what they go with. A bad sample driven by a universally disliked coach.

It's because NHL coaches are mostly simpletons at heart and this makes sense to them.
Pull goalie, extra shooter, score more goals, WIN GAMES.

 

[TopShelfSnipes]

Back in 2013-14, pulling your goalie early was a magic bullet. Teams were tying the game every time they did it.

Most of that sample was madman Patrick Roy who now can't find a job. In no other year did pulling early lead to scoring with any consistency.

Coaches around the league finally go full boar into analytics and that's what they go with. A bad sample driven by a universally disliked coach.

IMO pulling the goalie super early is the analytics-to-the-exclusion-of-everything-else minds' contribution to hockey. Analytics absolutely have a place in hockey, just as they do in baseball, but the pulling the goalie early theory is derived from that bad, circa 2007, somebody who never played the game's thesis that pulling the goalie down 5 in the second period on a powerplay statistically made you more likely to win a game (this was actually a thing back then very briefly and was even tried in D1 college hockey and at other levels around that time). This "theory" died a quick death at the hands of reality when teams gave up 2nd period SHENGs on powerplays and the consensus among hockey was pretty much...yeah WTF was the point. Even when it worked, like going all in on every hand in poker, it only worked until it didn't.

IMO it comes from the same dark place of sports academia as the theory that told 5'5" 150 pound baseball players to focus on launch angle and exit velo to the exclusion of all else, because hitting 20 homers is worth it, even if you hit .205 with no walks.

It was absolutely the wrong call last night down 2 with 4 minutes left on the PP.

The only perplexing things coaching wise to me was putting Laf and Panarin with Zib, who was struggling to do anything while Trochek was our best center and also I hate pulling the goalie on a pp with that much time left, i never did it as a coach, there's absolutely no need to give a team free shots at an empty net without having icings.

+Schneider and Jones after a TV timeout in a tie game.
+bad challenge on the Dallas goal.

It was bound to happen sooner or later. Hopefully they take something away from this.

 

[romba]

But it was a run of the mill mistake. That third goal I've literally never seen anything like it. Did he think he heard a whistle? I can't imagine why he would randomly lift his glove and allow Dallas to poke it in.

I think he wasn't sure where the puck was and he was checking 'yea it's there'. Shety's awareness is way off, and his save selection is iffy at best. We've seen this with him where it takes a good 3-5 games to get in form after injury, and he's not the only one to be like this in the NHL or throughout sports. You can continue to sit him and keep him out of form, or play him back into form. Quick ain't it, he'll turn into a pumpkin if you overplay him.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

Wondering if Shesty's soreness/injury is groin or inner thigh related (my guess is he got injured when he got speared by a stick in that area) and its still not 100% - because on the 3-4 uncharacteristic softies, he hasnt sealed the ice the well enough with his pads

 

[Do you want ants]

Plus side is they should be pissed off heading into our game with shitsburg tomorrow.

 

[huerter]

He covered the puck and lifted his glove before a whistle sounded and they poked it in. Even Joe mentioned it.

That just didn’t happen. Clueless Joe saying it happened means it didn’t happen.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

That just didn’t happen. Clueless Joe saying it happened means it didn’t happen.

Ok, what happened then? I saw it happen with my eyes. Not sure what you're watching.

 

[huerter]

Ok, what happened then? I saw it happen with my eyes. Not sure what you're watching.

Dallas used the royal road. Igor came across and made the save but didn’t have it covered and in the split second of trying to find the puck it got jammed in.

You make it seem like this was a Patrick Roy moment.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Dallas used the royal road. Igor came across and made the save but didn’t have it covered and in the split second of trying to find the puck it got jammed in.

You make it seem like this was a Patrick Roy moment.

Actually I thought of the Patrick Roy moment because I realized I HAVE seen that before once. He wasn't showboating like Roy but it was under his glove and then raised his glove for no reason. The puck wasn't in his glove when he raised it. But his glove was covering the puck from what I saw and then he raised it (not in a Roy way, the puck was on the ice). Maybe like someone said he didn't know where it was.