Post-Game Talk: Oilers win 3-2

oilinblood

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Aug 8, 2009
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Fortunately (actually unfortunately :shakehead) we have room for both Arco and one of the other two. Hopefully Draisitl or Yakimov can turn in a worthy season.

It's very exciting to see so much Joe Thornton in Draisitl's game. I'm quite surprised at how similar their styles are, I figured it was just overly enthusiastic hype. That's interesting though because if Joe's career is any indication we could be looking at two full season's before his style of game translates. Hopefully for our sake that was a personality/opportunity thing though because we need him sooner than that. Either way I think the kid is going to be well worth the wait.

There was a GREAT documentary of the nhl that year done by CBC. Joe thornton had a HUGE ego andwas out of shape at cmp, signed a huge nutzo contract and waltzed in expecting a roster spot. Sergei samsonov blew him out of the water at camp.
Personality wise there is no comparison between joeT and Drais. Nothing in common in that area.
 

Replacement*

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Apr 15, 2005
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I think it is. Either way it's just clamping your hands on your ears screaming "IM NOT LISTENING"

Oh so sorry if any of the journalists are reading. Maybe certain past accredited journalists could swear a blue streak at me in blog entries again..its been awhile :laugh:

Hey, if Ken Dryden talks, I'll listen. I'll read his books. Most of the sports journalism is just not worth reading or listening to.

I watch sports channels for the sports. When the talking heads get on I've learned to change the channel.

Pretty sure I don't need to watch and listen to Much Music DJ's to ascertain musical tastes either.
 
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Horseradish

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Dec 9, 2005
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Not sure why all the Arco hate. I thought he played pretty well. Was very good in his own end supporting the puck coverage. Won lots of draws. Cycled well in the o-zone. Sure he had a few giveaways, but he also had the puck on his stick a lot. If he, Joensuu, and Pinnizotto could even create half as many chances during the regular season, I'd keep all of them.
 

Isaak16

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May 7, 2013
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There was a GREAT documentary of the nhl that year done by CBC. Joe thornton had a HUGE ego andwas out of shape at cmp, signed a huge nutzo contract and waltzed in expecting a roster spot. Sergei samsonov blew him out of the water at camp.
Personality wise there is no comparison between joeT and Drais. Nothing in common in that area.

Yeah I keep hearing how professional the kid is. Hope that "Leon The Professional" sticks rather that all the Drai stuff. Whatever though as long as he turns out.

Little surprised to hear that about Joe. I've always heard that he has a great personality/disposition.
 

Da McBomb

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What was Draisaitl's faceoff percentage tonight? I only saw a part of the game but it seemed like he won most of the draws that I saw him take.
 

Aerchon

Registered User
Jul 20, 2011
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What was Draisaitl's faceoff percentage tonight? I only saw a part of the game but it seemed like he won most of the draws that I saw him take.

He was only 45%.

I posted all the center stats on the previous page. Although so you can see which one goes where just go to NHL.com or the Oilers website.
 

plikestechno

Registered User
Mar 14, 2008
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Only saw the highlights but am so glad that Dubnyk is gone. Im sure he made some great stops but bad rebound control and positioning on all three goals and of course lost the game. I heard drasaitl hit the post too.

Though to be fair scrivens didnt seem much better. Yikes on that SHG.
 

SK13

non torsii subligarium
Jul 23, 2007
32,765
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Eh, that's a bit unfair. Whether (and whichever) advanced statistics ends up proving valid or not, the vast VAST majority of people who use them, only parrot what they have been told about them, and have neither the will nor the means to do any validating or constructive criticism of their own.

This seems like a difficult claim to evidence. Have any?

In the Oilers case, they hired a firm to do analytics for this past offseason. They used them to help identify target players, one of which was Benoit Pouliot.

Intense knowledge of the stats, or pioneering new stats, is irrelevant. It's gotten to the point where people with more credentials than us are taking them very seriously, spending many millions of dollars and risking their careers on decisions made at least partially with the help of advanced stats.

Their currently rising popularity is irrelevant to their true worth and indicates nothing about the intelligence level of either supporters or detractors.

What's interesting about the "detractors" is the general idea that they're unproven.

It's true that we can't say "this team is a winning team because they've used advanced stats", but what we can say is that the stats are the factual representation of the results a player has had. You can mock Corsi, but you can't change the reality that a player with a good Corsi has seen his team outshoot his opponents team while on the ice. That much is a fact.

They're tools to be used, and whether or not you think they're refined or usable to craft winning teams, they suggest something and that's the reason so many are taking them seriously.

If your grand retort to all of that is "well, they're all idiots", I have a hard time taking that completely seriously.
 

oilinblood

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Aug 8, 2009
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Yeah I keep hearing how professional the kid is. Hope that "Leon The Professional" sticks rather that all the Drai stuff. Whatever though as long as he turns out.

Little surprised to hear that about Joe. I've always heard that he has a great personality/disposition.

Hell no dude, there was all kinds of talk from guys like devereaux and others about thorntons attitude in the wjhc dressing room. The guy had a stick up his you know what. Other teams players compliment and genuinely like drais. I have never heard one bad thing uttered about him, neither on the record or off regarding his personality. Even heated rivals say they would have taken him with the top pick...over SR.
I think the documentary was actually more about the big business of hockey at that point (a business economics documentary that happened to be using the nhl as its subject). They were already talking about how the thornton contract was going to throw the nhl into financial anarchy and the first thing samsonovs agent did was say "we want that contract" and sammy destroyed thornton in camp.
As a bruins fan i can say that thornton is not missed. He is friendly like penner but man is he missing the kind of heart that bergeron and krejci and guys like that have. He was given every physical advantage and just doesnt have the extra push in him. I really dont like thornton. If i only cared about selling tickets in a tough market i wouldnt mind him but hes really hohum.
 

Replacement*

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This seems like a difficult claim to evidence. Have any?

In the Oilers case, they hired a firm to do analytics for this past offseason. They used them to help identify target players, one of which was Benoit Pouliot.

Intense knowledge of the stats, or pioneering new stats, is irrelevant. It's gotten to the point where people with more credentials than us are taking them very seriously, spending many millions of dollars and risking their careers on decisions made at least partially with the help of advanced stats.



What's interesting about the "detractors" is the general idea that they're unproven.

It's true that we can't say "this team is a winning team because they've used advanced stats", but what we can say is that the stats are the factual representation of the results a player has had. You can mock Corsi, but you can't change the reality that a player with a good Corsi has seen his team outshoot his opponents team while on the ice. That much is a fact.

They're tools to be used, and whether or not you think they're refined or usable to craft winning teams, they suggest something and that's the reason so many are taking them seriously.

You can't even say this. Corsi is a SOG proxy for puck possession which is a proxy for outplaying which is a proxy for winning contributions. All of these proxys contained within unit, rather than individual stats. All of this not even involving actual goals scored.
 

MCDAVIDISH

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Jul 18, 2011
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Edmonton
You grasp that skill wise they arent in the same universe right...the 18 snot nosed kid who has no comfort in his new land and new surroundings is WORLDS better ALREADY. Heck he hasnt even turned on the switch offensively. He said it himself. He has to get the system down before he flicks that switch.

I agree, he'll get 9 games in the nhl to see if he can flick that switch.
 

Isaak16

The Universe Is Here
May 7, 2013
588
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Alberta
Hell no dude, there was all kinds of talk from guys like devereaux and others about thorntons attitude in the wjhc dressing room. The guy had a stick up his you know what. Other teams players compliment and genuinely like drais. I have never heard one bad thing uttered about him, neither on the record or off regarding his personality. Even heated rivals say they would have taken him with the top pick...over SR.
I think the documentary was actually more about the big business of hockey at that point (a business economics documentary that happened to be using the nhl as its subject). They were already talking about how the thornton contract was going to throw the nhl into financial anarchy and the first thing samsonovs agent did was say "we want that contract" and sammy destroyed thornton in camp.
As a bruins fan i can say that thornton is not missed. He is friendly like penner but man is he missing the kind of heart that bergeron and krejci and guys like that have. He was given every physical advantage and just doesnt have the extra push in him. I really dont like thornton. If i only cared about selling tickets in a tough market i wouldnt mind him but hes really hohum.

Interesting.
 

Dorian2

Define that balance
Jul 17, 2009
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Edmonton
There was a GREAT documentary of the nhl that year done by CBC. Joe thornton had a HUGE ego andwas out of shape at cmp, signed a huge nutzo contract and waltzed in expecting a roster spot. Sergei samsonov blew him out of the water at camp.
Personality wise there is no comparison between joeT and Drais. Nothing in common in that area.

Funny you should mention that. A while back I was comparing Drai to Thorton and how Drai seems so mature. Then I brought up the Thorton documentary you mentioned (which WAS absolutely outstanding) and mentioned what a spoiled brat he seemed to be there.

Any idea what it was called? I really want to watch that again.
 

oilinblood

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Aug 8, 2009
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Why even bother responding when he stated that Arco would be a the second best offensive Center option to RNH that the team has this year.:laugh:

=argument already lost..

True, it was just so completely out of touch with reality that i had to comment...and record. I am not trying to bash Arco and i am certainly not someone to bash journeymen but to say Drais isnt already better than the 26 year old at him umpteenth camp is pretty rediculous.

Funny you should mention that. A while back I was comparing Drai to Thorton and how Drai seems so mature. Then I brought up the Thorton documentary you mentioned (which WAS absolutely outstanding) and mentioned what a spoiled brat he seemed to be there.

Any idea what it was called? I really want to watch that again.

Honestly, as i said in my other response i dont think it was a hockey doc. My Dad had been going pt to uni at the time to get his mba and he called me in because despite his hate for hockey he knew it would be a documentary we could both watch. Amazingly, that doc got me interested in business and economics.

It was very well done and i think it was an extended episode of a regular running business series on cbc. They likely had it extended because they knew the hockey side would bring viewers. I remember Bettman making some outrageous predictions of the sport and economics that have come true too.

It might have even been Suzuki and the nature of things. I can say with complete certainty that it was not a hockey specific doc...NHL as a business was just the subject of the analysis.
 

Dorian2

Define that balance
Jul 17, 2009
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Edmonton
True, it was just so completely out of touch with reality that i had to comment...and record. I am not trying to bash Arco and i am certainly not someone to bash journeymen but to say Drais isnt already better than the 26 year old at him umpteenth camp is pretty rediculous.



Honestly, as i said in my other response i dont think it was a hockey doc. My Dad had been going pt to uni at the time to get his mba and he called me in because despite his hate for hockey he knew it would be a documentary we could both watch. Amazingly, that doc got me interested in business and economics.

It was very well done and i think it was an extended episode of a regular running business series on cbc. They likely had it extended because they knew the hockey side would bring viewers. I remember Bettman making some outrageous predictions of the sport and economics that have come true too.

It might have even been Suzuki and the nature of things. I can say with complete certainty that it was not a hockey specific doc...NHL as a business was just the subject of the analysis.

Thanks for that. I just searched for a joe thorton doc on cbc and nothing came up except San Jose stuff.

I'll try to refine my search
 

SK13

non torsii subligarium
Jul 23, 2007
32,765
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Edmonton
You can't even say this. Corsi is a SOG proxy for puck possession which is a proxy for outplaying which is a proxy for winning contributions. All of these proxys contained within unit, rather than individual stats. All of this not even involving actual goals scored.

It's one tool in a set to tell you what happened when that player was on the ice, but the point is, it tells you what happened when that player was on the ice.

The "why" of it all can be found with a combination of watching the games, logically breaking down the result and using other analytics that focus on other aspects.
 

Soundwave

Registered User
Mar 1, 2007
72,208
28,016
Joensuu had a good game from the sounds of it, but he was lights out last pre-season too. I don't think he can do that during the regular season.

I do like his game more than Gazdic's though, it's too bad he doesn't fight.

Draisaitl will be here for the year I think, even if he struggles in the 9 games he'll show enough to stay and still has more offensive upside than Arco or Lander because of his on-ice vision.
 

SK13

non torsii subligarium
Jul 23, 2007
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Joensuu had a good game from the sounds of it, but he was lights out last pre-season too. I don't think he can do that during the regular season.

Possibly. I'll say this for Joensuu, there was an injury between his play in preseason and his play in regular season last year.

Either way, I don't think you can use this is an excuse to put someone else in that hole. He's outplayed his competition in the last two games. I think it's his at Game 1, and it can and should be reevaluated as the season goes on.
 

oilinblood

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Aug 8, 2009
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Thanks for that. I just searched for a joe thorton doc on cbc and nothing came up except San Jose stuff.

I'll try to refine my search

Time frame wise it would have been anywhere from fall of 1997 to winter/end of 1998. That should assist narrowing it. There were quite a few financial shows on cbc at that time but for some reason NOW i keep seeing suzuki and hearing the intro music from the nature of things, when i think of the doc. My memory kind of works that way...pieces keep being added. I think they talked about how thornton got sent down and healthy scratched as well...and burns was coach. Seasons started earlier back then so it may have been aired in dec or jan of 97/98.
 

SK13

non torsii subligarium
Jul 23, 2007
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Edmonton
Well, have you ever actively tried to disprove the validity of an advanced stat - such as corsi?

Huh?

I was asking if you could provide evidence for the claim that most who reference advance stats are simply parroting what they've been told, I'm not sure how the mirror side of that is disproving Corsi.
 

PerformanceMcOil

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
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You can mock Corsi, but you can't change the reality that a player with a good Corsi has seen his team outshoot his opponents team while on the ice. That much is a fact.

Sure, but you could say the same thing about goals for/against. And a goal has more value.


If your grand retort to all of that is "well, they're all idiots", I have a hard time taking that completely seriously.

I don't think people who believe in advanced stats are idiots. I don't think people do their own due diligence either.

An example: it's widely accepted that past corsi is predictive of future corsi. However, what isn't said is that it is only highly predictive intraseasonally, not interseasonally (don't believe me, I would suggest looking yourself). Doesn't make it useless (in fact I think that raises interesting ideas about player usage and team-based effects), but means many claims about it are overstated (and again, oft repeated).

Also, as far as advanced stats being used by teams, isn't it important to know WHAT they are tracking in order to use that as validation for a particular stat?
 

PerformanceMcOil

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
474
227
Huh?

I was asking if you could provide evidence for the claim that most who reference advance stats are simply parroting what they've been told, I'm not sure how the mirror side of that is disproving Corsi.

Actually, it is the very essence of critical thought to... criticize.

Agreed that (assuming you are pro-corsi but have not done any validation of your own), you only represent an N of 1, but I have to start somewhere, no?

BTW, you do not need to disprove corsi, since if it has validity you will be unable to. But you need to try. Otherwise, you are simply accepting what others tell you. I'm not sure how you can argue against what I said in that case.

If you are unable or unwilling to try, then you have simply accepted that the 'pro-corsi' crowd has the more compelling argument. And you then, by making any claims about corsi (beyond simply what it measures) are parroting what others have said. It is a belief in that case, not any sort of knowledge.

Not to say that is some insult or anything, I accept many things as truth that I cannot critically evaluate to any real degree. But I also accept in those cases that I am not qualified to argue for or against those ideas in a critical fashion.

But, to the original point about general acceptance - 1 million people believing something are not more correct than 1 person knowing something.
 

Dorian2

Define that balance
Jul 17, 2009
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Edmonton
Time frame wise it would have been anywhere from fall of 1997 to winter/end of 1998. That should assist narrowing it. There were quite a few financial shows on cbc at that time but for some reason NOW i keep seeing suzuki and hearing the intro music from the nature of things, when i think of the doc. My memory kind of works that way...pieces keep being added. I think they talked about how thornton got sent down and healthy scratched as well...and burns was coach. Seasons started earlier back then so it may have been aired in dec or jan of 97/98.

Damned. Couldn't find a thing.

But this little gem turned up in the results:



:D
 

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