News Article: Oilers GM: Broberg, Holloway offer sheets 'way above' their performance

[STL fan in MN]

Probably with the situation at hand, but your interpretation is as good as mine. Here's more...

https://x.com/i/web/status/1833921225938329923

Well Leon, nobody said you guys were pouting like babies…he just said you weren’t too happy.

But now that makes me think you did pout like babies and this a a defense mechanism.

 

[Reality Czech]

Well Leon, nobody said you guys were pouting like babies…he just said you weren’t too happy.

But now that makes me think you did pout like babies and this a a defense mechanism.

Wonder why he's so pissy.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

The biggest takeaway for me is that Blues players were pumped at the news. If Thomas is any reference, there will be some energy from the team psychologically after this move to beef up the roster.

There are a couple “Fire Armstrong “ guys I haven’t seen around here lately. Don’t think Thomas is in that camp.

 

[Majorityof1]

The biggest takeaway for me is that Blues players were pumped at the news. If Thomas is any reference, there will be some energy from the team psychologically after this move to beef up the roster.

There are a couple “Fire Armstrong “ guys I haven’t seen around here lately. Don’t think Thomas is in that camp.

<waves> I've always been critical of Armstrong. I don't know if I fall into the fire Armstrong group. Since 2019 he has had leash from me although it has been shortening.

I honestly don't think this moves the needle yet on fire Army vs Army is a hero. It was a truly masterful move but if these aren't the right guys, it will be all sound and fury, ultimately signifying nothing.

I like Holloway and am more reserved on Broberg. But I even see Holloway as a middle 6, not a game changer. That's fine. The best strategy for this path is making a high volume of smaller moves hoping they hit big. The question though is whether retooling is the right strategy.

Ultimately the question of whether Army is a hero or a villain comes down to the decision to retool vs rebuild. If Army can pull off a retool, he's a hero. If the retool fails and we wallow in mediocrity, then he should have been fired. Only time will tell.

 

[Celtic Note]

<waves> I've always been critical of Arnstrong. I don't know if I fall into the fire Armstrong group. Since 2019 he has had leash from me although it has been shortening.

I honestly don't think this moves the needle yet on fire Army vs Army is a hero. It was a truly masterful move but if these aren't the right guys, it will be all sound and fury, ultimately signifying nothing.

I like Holloway and am more reserved on Broberg. But I even see Holloway as a middle 6, not a game changer. That's fine. The best strategy for thus path is making a high volume of smaller moves hoping they hit big. The question though is whether that is the right strategy.

Ultimately the question of whether Army us a hero ir a villain comes down to the decision to retool vs rebuild. If Army can pull off a retool, he's a hero. If the retool fails and we wallow in mediocrity, then he should have been fired. Only time will tell.

I have been also pretty vocal against some of his moves throughout his time here. His fascination with hockey trades the Backes years significantly limited that cores potential as did the trade targets. Then he changed it up and went on really good run which finally brought us our Cup, of course with a good amount of luck dashed in. Then he immediately took us down hill in a very predictable way. I still am not sold the decision to skip any bottoming out period was wise. Should he be fired, no. He is executing his plan well. I am just not convinced it’s the right plan. This season and next will be pretty telling concerning how we are tracking. And I am not talking about wins.

This one set of moves from an execution standpoint was almost clinical. Whether they are the right moves, time will tell.

I still think we need to find more elite talent and I am not seeing it, no do I have a clue how we will find it. Luck is likely what we need.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I have been also pretty vocal against some of his moves throughout his time here. His fascination with hockey trades the Backes years significantly limited that cores potential as did the trade targets. Then he changed it up and went on really good run which finally brought us our Cup, of course with a good amount of luck dashed in. Then he immediately took us down hill in a very predictable way. I still am not sold the decision to skip any bottoming out period was wise. Should he be fired, no. He is executing his plan well. I am just not convinced it’s the right plan. This season and next will be pretty telling concerning how we are tracking. And I am not talking about wins.

This one set of moves from an execution standpoint was almost clinical. Whether they are the right moves, time will tell.

I still think we need to find more elite talent and I am not seeing it, no do I have a clue how we will find it. Luck is likely what we need.

I expect we will pick up an elite player over next few years via trade. We are accumulating the kind of picks to pounce when a star wants out of Ottawa, for example.

 

[BlueMed]

<waves> I've always been critical of Armstrong. I don't know if I fall into the fire Armstrong group. Since 2019 he has had leash from me although it has been shortening.

I honestly don't think this moves the needle yet on fire Army vs Army is a hero. It was a truly masterful move but if these aren't the right guys, it will be all sound and fury, ultimately signifying nothing.

I like Holloway and am more reserved on Broberg. But I even see Holloway as a middle 6, not a game changer. That's fine. The best strategy for this path is making a high volume of smaller moves hoping they hit big. The question though is whether retooling is the right strategy.

Ultimately the question of whether Army is a hero or a villain comes down to the decision to retool vs rebuild. If Army can pull off a retool, he's a hero. If the retool fails and we wallow in mediocrity, then he should have been fired. Only time will tell.

Doug Armstrong has certainly made regrettable moves in the past that were questionable in the moment (e.g. Torey Krug). However, it's not rational to judge a decision in hindsight because the quality of a decision is based on the information available at that time. If the rebuild doesn't work, that doesn't necessarily mean the moves were irrational or even within his control given the number of variables involved. If a GM's current plan lacks vision and clarity, then that would be a reason to move on from him. Nonetheless, Stillman has vocalized how much he reveres Doug Armstrong and won't be firing him with Steen set to take over soon anyways.

 

[Majorityof1]

I expect we will pick up an elite player over next few years via trade. We are accumulating the kind of picks to pounce when a star wants out of Ottawa, for example.

Its 7 and 8 years respectively until Stutzle and Sanderson hit UFA. There is no other elite talent in Ottawa. Tkachuk is not elite. He's a great 1st liner but he is Kyrou/Buchnevich level. He is less than point per game winger who's not great defensively.

 

[Stupendous Yappi]

I have been also pretty vocal against some of his moves throughout his time here. His fascination with hockey trades the Backes years significantly limited that cores potential as did the trade targets. Then he changed it up and went on really good run which finally brought us our Cup, of course with a good amount of luck dashed in. Then he immediately took us down hill in a very predictable way. I still am not sold the decision to skip any bottoming out period was wise. Should he be fired, no. He is executing his plan well. I am just not convinced it’s the right plan. This season and next will be pretty telling concerning how we are tracking. And I am not talking about wins.

This one set of moves from an execution standpoint was almost clinical. Whether they are the right moves, time will tell.

I still think we need to find more elite talent and I am not seeing it, no do I have a clue how we will find it. Luck is likely what we need.

A subtle thing he should get credit for is the ability to resign Buchnevich (or a guy like that). He can sell a vision to UFAs and most players who come to St Louis are happy to stay. The front office culture has to be right for that to work. You can look around the league and see places where that is NOT true.

Anyway, I'm not talking about you guys. There are a couple posters who literally post repeatedly to "fire Armstrong". They've gone radio silent.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

Its 7 and 8 years respectively until Stutzle and Sanderson hit UFA. There is no other elite talent in Ottawa. Tkachuk is not elite. He's a great 1st liner but he is Kyrou/Buchnevich level. He is less than point per game winger who's not great defensively.

I didn't realize players could only change teams when they hit UFA. Silly me.

 

[Majorityof1]

I didn't realize players could only change teams when they hit UFA. Silly me.

Not necessarily, but its rare to trade an early 20s 1D or 1C a couple years after they sign long term deals, unless you are getting an equally strong player.

 

[Reality Czech]

I have been also pretty vocal against some of his moves throughout his time here. His fascination with hockey trades the Backes years significantly limited that cores potential as did the trade targets. Then he changed it up and went on really good run which finally brought us our Cup, of course with a good amount of luck dashed in. Then he immediately took us down hill in a very predictable way. I still am not sold the decision to skip any bottoming out period was wise. Should he be fired, no. He is executing his plan well. I am just not convinced it’s the right plan. This season and next will be pretty telling concerning how we are tracking. And I am not talking about wins.

This one set of moves from an execution standpoint was almost clinical. Whether they are the right moves, time will tell.

I still think we need to find more elite talent and I am not seeing it, no do I have a clue how we will find it. Luck is likely what we need.

I'm not sure that teams ever willingly decide to bottom out but rather circumstances force them to go that route. The Blackhawks were forced into a rebuild after their stars got old and/or their contracts ran out. They traded most of their high picks for years while contending so it was a much easier decision for them to go the tank route.

The Blues on the other hand were fortunate enough to draft two excellent players in Thomas and Kyrou, which made a full tank kind of unrealistic. Not to mention having key pieces like Parayko and Binnington after much of the Cup team moved on via retirement or free agency. Much like a poker player, a GM has to play the cards in his hand as best he can and I think Army has done a pretty good job of that. If our team hadn't drafted so well then maybe a full tear down would have made more sense. As a fan, I'm glad we didn't have to go through an extended period of shitty hockey like some other teams have.

 

[Majorityof1]

A subtle thing he should get credit for is the ability to resign Buchnevich (or a guy like that). He can sell a vision to UFAs and most players who come to St Louis are happy to stay. The front office culture has to be right for that to work. You can look around the league and see places where that is NOT true.

Anyway, I'm not talking about you guys. There are a couple posters who literally post repeatedly to "fire Armstrong". They've gone radio silent.

Not to speak for Celtic, but I think signing Buchnevich was the mistake. It helps us stay competitive rather than bottom out. And by the time we are playoff competitive, he will be nearing the downside of his career.

I figured you weren't referring to me. I just think its interesting discussion/thought that this could be such a masterful move and yet might not be the right move. The downside is low, but the bigger picture course we are on to compete more quickly has a much higher downside if it fails.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

Not to speak for Celtic, but I think signing Buchnevich was the mistake.

LOL!!!!!!

I agree with you. Love Buch and he is a great fit and love dovey kumbaya and all that, but I was set on acquiring assets for him at the 2023 tdl, and then at the 2023 draft, and then at the 2024 tdl and then at the 2024 draft.

And then he re-signed. okay

Once he re-signed, I was on board. He's here and that's that. But I hear ya.

 

[Reality Czech]

LOL!!!!!!

I agree with you. Love Buch and he is a great fit and love dovey kumbaya and all that, but I was set on acquiring assets for him at the 2023 tdl, and then at the 2023 draft, and then at the 2024 tdl and then at the 2024 draft.

And then he re-signed. okay

Once he re-signed, I was on board. He's here and that's that. But I hear ya.

So you guys really wanted the Blues to bottom out and waste prime years of Kyrou and Thomas in the hopes that we might end up better 3+ years from now? It's far from a guarantee that strategy would put us in a better position long term. How would the players on the team feel if the front office just waves a white flag for a few seasons? I don't get that point of view at all. When you've got a good player like Buch who's proud to wear the Blue Note why would you want to trade him? I bet the return would have been disappointing and then we hope to find another Buch down the line.

 

[shpongle falls]

We basically got the assets we should’ve got from a Buch trade in Broberg and Halloway but then kept Buch, which is a good move if they want to stay competitive and fight for a playoff spot right now and in the future.

 

[ChicagoBlues]

So you guys really wanted the Blues to bottom out and waste prime years of Kyrou and Thomas in the hopes that we might end up better 3+ years from now? It's far from a guarantee that strategy would put us in a better position long term. How would the players on the team feel if the front office just waves a white flag for a few seasons? I don't get that point of view at all. When you've got a good player like Buch who's proud to wear the Blue Note why would you want to trade him? I bet the return would have been disappointing and then we hope to find another Buch down the line.

No, I didn't want to bottom out at all. I didn't think we'd bottom out if Buch was traded. I thought it would have been beneficial to trade Buch at peak value, but we kept him. All good. Now we get to benefit from a well-paid and happy Pavel Buchnevich.

Yay, Blues fans!!!

 

[BlueMed]

Not to speak for Celtic, but I think signing Buchnevich was the mistake. It helps us stay competitive rather than bottom out. And by the time we are playoff competitive, he will be nearing the downside of his career.

I figured you weren't referring to me. I just think its interesting discussion/thought that this could be such a masterful move and yet might not be the right move. The downside is low, but the bigger picture course we are on to compete more quickly has a much higher downside if it fails.

Who is to say this Blues team can't be competitive next year? Buchnevich is only 29 years old and his role reminds me a lot of Hossa's in Chicago (the forward veteran with outstanding 2-way presence to help Toews on the top line). In our case, Thomas needs Buchnevich to bring that strong defensive presence and generate quality chances offensively. To put things in perspective, Hossa signed a 12 year contract at 5.275 M AAV (9.29% of Chicago's cap at the time) when he was 30 years old. Buchnevich's extension is only 6 years and will start next season at 8.0 M AAV (8.69% of the projected cap of 92 M for 2025-26) when he is 30 years old. Agewise, Hossa is 9 years older than Toews while Buchnevich is only 4 years older than Thomas. I don't think Buchnevich looks out of place with the core group. In fact, as excited as we are about the upcoming prospects, it's important to remember that this team is still built around Thomas, Kyrou, Buch, and Parayko, and these younger players will make it very cost effective to build a deep roster with their ELCs, therefore making this team more competitive sooner rather than later.

 

[Celtic Note]

I expect we will pick up an elite player over next few years via trade. We are accumulating the kind of picks to pounce when a star wants out of Ottawa, for example.

I am just trying to understand what high end assets/players we will have to trade to make that happen (do/will we have them?) ?
How long into our optimistic Cup window we will have to wait for that player(s)?
How many prime years left will that player(s) have?
How many prime years will our existing players have?

Lots of unanswered questions that will obviously take time to see what the answers end up being.

The sooner we get said player(s), the more positive the answers about primes and Cup window look. But that also likely means we are subtracting higher end players/assets currently penciled in to projected future lineups.

Lots to consider. It’s really a complicated subject.

 

[Celtic Note]

Who is to say this Blues team can't be competitive next year? Buchnevich is only 29 years old and his role reminds me a lot of Hossa's in Chicago (the forward veteran with outstanding 2-way presence to help Toews on the top line). In our case, Thomas needs Buchnevich to bring that strong defensive presence and generate quality chances offensively. To put things in perspective, Hossa signed a 12 year contract at 5.275 M AAV (9.29% of Chicago's cap at the time) when he was 30 years old. Buchnevich's extension is only 6 years and will start next season at 8.0 M AAV (8.69% of the projected cap of 92 M for 2025-26) when he is 30 years old. Agewise, Hossa is 9 years older than Toews while Buchnevich is only 4 years older than Thomas. I don't think Buchnevich looks out of place with the core group. In fact, as excited as we are about the upcoming prospects, it's important to remember that this team is still built around Thomas, Kyrou, Buch, and Parayko, and these younger players will make it very cost effective to build a deep roster with their ELCs, therefore making this team more competitive sooner rather than later.

Competitive how?

For a playoff position? That could very well happen this year.

Being a Cup contender? Next year seems unfairly optimistic given our current state. Our best prospects might not be on the team by then. I certainly would not expect they are peak contributors yet.

 

[Bye Bye Blueston]

I am just trying to understand what high end assets/players we will have to trade to make that happen (do/will we have them?) ?
How long into our optimistic Cup window we will have to wait for that player(s)?
How many prime years left will that player(s) have?
How many prime years will our existing players have?

Lots of unanswered questions that will obviously take time to see what the answers end up being.

The sooner we get said player(s), the more positive the answers about primes and Cup window look. But that also likely means we are subtracting higher end players/assets currently penciled in to projected future lineups.

Lots to consider. It’s really a complicated subject.

Look at guys who have been dealt in last few years- Eichel or ROR or Stone whomever. Did the acquirer overpay? I’d gladly give up any 2 of our kids plus whatnot to get Stutzle or whomever if we are lacking high end guys. We don’t need to overthink this.

 

[BlueMed]

Competitive how?

For a playoff position? That could very well happen this year.

Being a Cup contender? Next year seems unfairly optimistic given our current state. Our best prospects might not be on the team by then. I certainly would not expect they are peak contributors yet.

My interpretation of that was an expectation to make the playoffs, and anything can happen once you get in, especially when you have a goaltender like Jordan Binnington. Obviously winning the cup is the goal, but I don't think it's a stretch to expect this team to be a cup contender in 3-4 years once Dvorksy gets comfortable as the 2C and Snuggerud/Bolduc's shot becomes an asset on the top powerplay unit. Obviously the defense may need a bit of configuring, but Krug's contract will be gone and the cap will rise leading to more cap flexibility then. At that point, Buchnevich will be 32-33 years old and likely still be productive.

 

[Reality Czech]

I am just trying to understand what high end assets/players we will have to trade to make that happen (do/will we have them?) ?
How long into our optimistic Cup window we will have to wait for that player(s)?
How many prime years left will that player(s) have?
How many prime years will our existing players have?

Lots of unanswered questions that will obviously take time to see what the answers end up being.

The sooner we get said player(s), the more positive the answers about primes and Cup window look. But that also likely means we are subtracting higher end players/assets currently penciled in to projected future lineups.

Lots to consider. It’s really a complicated subject.

How many elite players did Florida have? Barkov and Tkachuk obviously but after that? Ok Reinhart had a career 57 goal season but it's not like that was an All-star team from top to bottom. They had great depth up front, solid D but no elite guys and a goalie playing his best. They won with depth and hard work like the Blues did in 2019. Sure individual talent matters but it's still ultimately a team sport. There isn't one formula for success.

I don't see why Thomas, Kyrou and Buch can't equal Florida's big 3 forwards if everything goes right. Obviously defense is a concern but Forsling came out of nowhere. If we're can find a diamond in the rough like that then I feel a lot better about our defense as well. I mean a team just won with Mikkola on their second pair so it's not an impossible task.

 

[Brian39]

Its 7 and 8 years respectively until Stutzle and Sanderson hit UFA. There is no other elite talent in Ottawa. Tkachuk is not elite. He's a great 1st liner but he is Kyrou/Buchnevich level. He is less than point per game winger who's not great defensively.

I think there is an argument that he is on a higher level and/or elite.

He's had 30+ goals in 3 straight seasons and 35+ in each of the last 2 seasons. His 83 point career high is 8 points clear of Kyrou's career high and 7 points clear of Buch's. He's also 2 draft classes younger than Kyrou and 5 draft classes younger than Buch. He's gotten votes as an end of season all star in each of the last 2 seasons and his possession numbers are better than both (although there is a very real argument that a lot of advanced metrics give him too much credit for shoveling pucks into the pads of goalies).

I think Brady is a better fantasy hockey asset than real-world asset and I think that he needs to scale back the number of dumb/nonsense penalties and misconducts. I also don't think he's ever going to be as good as his brother. But I wouldn't write him off as non-elite and I think he can make a case for being a level above Kyrou/Buch (especially Kyrou as I have Buch a level above Kyrou).

 

[Xerloris]

I have been also pretty vocal against some of his moves throughout his time here. His fascination with hockey trades the Backes years significantly limited that cores potential as did the trade targets. Then he changed it up and went on really good run which finally brought us our Cup, of course with a good amount of luck dashed in. Then he immediately took us down hill in a very predictable way. I still am not sold the decision to skip any bottoming out period was wise. Should he be fired, no. He is executing his plan well. I am just not convinced it’s the right plan. This season and next will be pretty telling concerning how we are tracking. And I am not talking about wins.

This one set of moves from an execution standpoint was almost clinical. Whether they are the right moves, time will tell.

I still think we need to find more elite talent and I am not seeing it, no do I have a clue how we will find it. Luck is likely what we need.

The fact that you think the "Backes" core could have ever won anything really negates any of your other opinions. No matter how much we loved them they were bad.