OHL Expansion

[Otto]

And where did they come up with that number?

Anyone remember the expansion fees when Brampton / Missy joined the league?

Not sure, but here's an article from 2022 that states the average team is worth $2-$3 million .. https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/cherry-to-sell-stake-in-ohl-s-icedogs-report-1.349696

I'd be surprised if the expansion fee was $20 million. It's tough enough to find a potential owner who's willing to cover expenses for a team that will undoubtedly be a loser for at least 4 years without making them pay a $20 million expansion fee.

 

[Kingpin794]

No doubt, I'm questioning the statement referring to these two teams having to pay $20 million to join the league.

Yeah I was curious about that too. OP didn’t site a source. So like you I am skeptical of that is the number

 

[ScoutLife4]

Not sure, but here's an article from 2022 that states the average team is worth $2-$3 million .. https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/cherry-to-sell-stake-in-ohl-s-icedogs-report-1.349696

I'd be surprised if the expansion fee was $20 million. It's tough enough to find a potential owner who's willing to cover expenses for a team that will undoubtedly be a loser for at least 4 years without making them pay a $20 million expansion fee.

That is from 2002 not 2022.. Big difference. Most of the franchises are 5-6x value from then.
There is no way the expansion fee would be 20M either way but most of the franchises are worth 10-15M + now.
Expansion fee would be a small % of the total worth of the team.

 

[Otto]

That is from 2002 not 2022.. Big difference. Most of the franchises are 5-6x value from then.

Established franchises yes. Still doesn't warrant a $20 million expansion fee

 

[bobber]

If USA hockey continues to try to hold USHL ownership hostage, those owners will find a legal workaround at some point. The USHL was all ready a weak league before this season, now it’s devoid of all top talent as did the BCHL.

It only natural that they will contract. I would pay to watch that level of hockey honestly.

As for pivoting and expanding into Ontario, Chatham makes no sense. That city is dead, it attracts poor retirees from Toronto to sit in the casino all day. They can barely support the Maroons.

I could see Newmarket or Markham. If a rink was built Burlington or Cambridge those could be good markets.

Cambridge would part the
Rangers territory.

 

[Otto]

Interesting question...

 

[OMG67]

Interesting question...

I think it depends on how their USHL contracts are written. I think we should assume that OHL player rights would be retained for players entering the OHL. However, there is nothing preventing the OHL from creating the expansion rules that allows USHL players with rights to current OHL teams to remain the property of the USHL (new OHL) teams. The OHL could nullify those rights by giving those teams comp picks in the same round they were drafted. There will be many work arounds for a lot of little wrinkles.

 

[the dog]

Heard Cornwall wants team bad they missed out on missassuaga because super deal on lease in brampton .

 

[OMG67]

Heard Cornwall wants team bad they missed out on missassuaga because super deal on lease in brampton .

Really? They did Reno the place and put in what looks like new seating but no structural changes. As an Ottawa fan, I would love to see Cornwall back in the league. It would really help out in the East Division.

 

[Nanabijou]

Who are the owners of Youngstown & Muskegon? Do they even have that kind of cash?

Murry Gunty is co-owner of Youngstown. He's chief executive of Black Bear Sports which has bought up a ton of rinks across the US, particularly the east half, which then pushes the teams that play out of those rinks into Black Bear-associated leagues like THF. He made his money initially as an investment guy on Wall Street. If he doesn't have the 20 million in hand, he has the assets to get it.

He does not seem to be a big fan of USA Hockey, as he has waged some public battles with them on social media. Even though he's a co-owner of a USHL team, he's pretty heavily involved with the USPHL (not sanctioned by USA Hockey) which runs a billion junior teams (NCDC, USPHL premier, USPHL elite leagues) across the whole country, and is still currently serving as interim commissioner of those leagues I believe.

The discussion of the positive/negative impact he's had on hockey in the States doesn't need to be hashed here, but he comes across as a disruptor that I could totally see wanting to stick it to USA Hockey. How well he plays with Hockey Canada in the long term is an open question.

 

[Otto]

Murry Gunty is co-owner of Youngstown. He's chief executive of Black Bear Sports which has bought up a ton of rinks across the US, particularly the east half, which then pushes the teams that play out of those rinks into Black Bear-associated leagues like THF. He made his money initially as an investment guy on Wall Street. If he doesn't have the 20 million in hand, he has the assets to get it.

He does not seem to be a big fan of USA Hockey, as he has waged some public battles with them on social media. Even though he's a co-owner of a USHL team, he's pretty heavily involved with the USPHL (not sanctioned by USA Hockey) which runs a billion junior teams (NCDC, USPHL premier, USPHL elite leagues) across the whole country, and is still currently serving as interim commissioner of those leagues I believe.

The discussion of the positive/negative impact he's had on hockey in the States doesn't need to be hashed here, but he comes across as a disruptor that I could totally see wanting to stick it to USA Hockey. How well he plays with Hockey Canada in the long term is an open question.

Sounds like the OHL wouldn't need to be the ones ponying up the money to fight. That's a good thing.

 

[Kingpin794]

Sounds like the OHL wouldn't need to be the ones ponying up the money to fight. That's a good thing.

Not to mention the other co owner of Youngstown, Bruce Zeldon, is worth about 30 billion. If you’ve ever gone through the Midwest during summer, you’ll know his footprint. Phantom fireworks for which the team is named is his company.

 

[Otto]

Not to mention the other co owner of Youngstown, Bruce Zeldon, is worth about 30 billion. If you’ve ever gone through the Midwest during summer, you’ll know his footprint. Phantom fireworks for which the team is named is his company.

Sounds like USA Hockey knows exactly what they are doing here and is looking for a big payday

 

[Basil]

Earlier in this thread, Johnstown PA was suggested as a possible new location should Youngstown fall through.

Living here, the facts pertaining to Johnstown are.....
The arena opened in 1950 and has had several renovations and updates since then. It is old, but in excellent condition.

The arena seats 4000, and since the tier 2 NAHL team located here, they have averaged around 2000 fans per game every year. Attendance is down this season because the team isn't very good.

Johnstown is a 3 hour drive Southeast from Erie PA.

Johnstown and Erie were huge rivals when they were both original members of the ECHL.

I highly doubt that the ownership of the NAHL team here have the finances to support an OHL team though.

 

[OHLTG]

Johnstown is a 3 hour drive Southeast from Erie PA.

It's also 480km from the Niagara area and even further from Windsor... which, on top of Erie, would be the three shortest OHL trips. I don't think that's feasible.

 

[GoKnightsGo44]

Talking about distance feasibility, St. John’s just acquired the Acadia Bathurst QMJHL team….. I have no clue how that would work?

 

[Kingpin794]

Talking about distance feasibility, St. John’s just acquired the Acadia Bathurst QMJHL team….. I have no clue how that would work?

It probably won't. No team of any kind lasts longer than 5 years there.

 

[the dog]

Talking about distance feasibility, St. John’s just acquired the Acadia Bathurst QMJHL team….. I have no clue how that would work?

They pay for teams traveling there. Need least 4000 per game to survive

 

[paul-laus]

They pay for teams traveling there. Need least 4000 per game to survive

Which actually isn’t that far fetched. I was under the impression that the Maple Leafs, Ice Caps, and even the Growlers didn’t draw too badly in St. John’s…

 

[bigsportsfan]

No doubt, I'm questioning the statement referring to these two teams having to pay $20 million to join the league.

That information comes from Mike Farwell via the OHL Podcast.

Here is a link to the podcast



They start the discussion about OHL expansion at 14:20 and the $20 million fee is mentioned at 18:42.

$20 million is a lot but there is an OHL team for sale right now at $18 million so I don't think $20 million is too far of a stretch.

 

[Otto]

That information comes from Mike Farwell via the OHL Podcast.

Here is a link to the podcast



They start the discussion about OHL expansion at 14:20 and the $20 million fee is mentioned at 18:42.

$20 million is a lot but there is an OHL team for sale right now at $18 million so I don't think $20 million is too far of a stretch.

Again, an established franchise is very different from an expansion franchise. Both Seattle & Vegas are currently worth more than double what their NHL expansion fees were.

I'd expect any OHL expansion fee would half what the average team valuation is.

 

[EvenSteven]

Interesting question...

If those players want to remain in the USHL, I suppose they’d become FA’s and sign with whatever USHL team they choose. Or perhaps the USHL does a dispersal draft.

But if they are to play in the OHL, I contend that those players that are the property of OHL teams, remain so. Those teams are joining OUR league so WE call the shots. Youngstown and Muskegon would enter the league and a traditional expansion draft would happen.

A good case to look at would be Ranger draft pick Jack Hextall. He currently plays with Youngstown. I would guess there’d be a protected list entering an expansion draft. Should the Rangers protect Hextall, and he makes it known he only wants to play with Youngstown (supposed connections there), a trade of his rights would have to take place.

I’m not in favour of Hextall automatically becoming Youngstown property and we get a comp pick for the round we chose him in. His value would be much more than that (13th round) and the Rangers would want to be compensated appropriately.

 

[OMG67]

That information comes from Mike Farwell via the OHL Podcast.

Here is a link to the podcast



They start the discussion about OHL expansion at 14:20 and the $20 million fee is mentioned at 18:42.

$20 million is a lot but there is an OHL team for sale right now at $18 million so I don't think $20 million is too far of a stretch.

Which team is for sale?

 

[bigsportsfan]

Which team is for sale?

Niagara IceDogs. But given their attendance decline from 4800/game to 3200/game, 18 million may be too much to ask. I doubt he sells unless he gets close to his asking price.

 

[ScoutLife4]

Niagara IceDogs. But given their attendance decline from 4800/game to 3200/game, 18 million may be too much to ask. I doubt he sells unless he gets close to his asking price.

Did he finally decide to put it up? That's great for Icedogs fans if so.