OHL Expansion

OMG67

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Sep 1, 2013
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Breaking a lease just costs $ - some people have the money to not care

A sublet with option to renew for the new tenant (under specified terms) could also be an option. The question is when Hamilton is ready for the AHL team. I am not sure when they can operationally move to Hamilton. Is there a renovation or anything happening that would stall the move to Hamilton? If not, as long as the Senators are willing to sublet the lease and the building owner (I assume City of Belleville) is willing to accept a sublet situation, the OHL franchise can agree to the existing terms of the lease and upon lease completion, execute the new lease.

The sublet protects the landlord. If the new tenant is unable to pay the lease, the onus is on the lease holder (Senators) to pay the lease in full.
 

AttackSound

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Aug 25, 2016
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Elliott Freidman just reported that the OHL approved Youngstown and Muskegon to begin play next season, however USA hockey has the right to veto that and they exercised that veto power, so the addition of the two teams is currently in limbo
Looks like this was going to be more of a pipedream for the OHL to expand then actual concrete guarantee.

I'm sure the organizations in both Muskegon and Youngstown would love to join the OHL, but this was more out of the OHL's power then they believed it would be.

Likely will be a long time before we see any real potential expansion in this league but always fun to hope to see in some discussion.

Maybe the OHL needs to think about exploring former OHL markets before expanding outwards.

Cornwall, Chatham, have been kicked around in discussions in the past maybe instead of expanding outward the OHL expands inward...
 

Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
Looks like this was going to be more of a pipedream for the OHL to expand then actual concrete guarantee.

I'm sure the organizations in both Muskegon and Youngstown would love to join the OHL, but this was more out of the OHL's power then they believed it would be.

Likely will be a long time before we see any real potential expansion in this league but always fun to hope to see in some discussion.

Maybe the OHL needs to think about exploring former OHL markets before expanding outwards.

Cornwall, Chatham, have been kicked around in discussions in the past maybe instead of expanding outward the OHL expands inward...
Or the more likely scenario, the OHL throws a pile of money at USA Hockey to let the two teams join. If the OHL is all in on expansion the goal will be to eventually add 4 teams, without Youngstown and Muskegon I don't see that happening. There are not 4 viable OHL arenas available, even with the addition of a new arena in Burlington (in a minimum of 5 years) and the possibility of Belleville in 2 years, I don't see 2 other cities plus 4 ownership groups.
 

Kingpin794

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Or the more likely scenario, the OHL throws a pile of money at USA Hockey to let the two teams join. If the OHL is all in on expansion the goal will be to eventually add 4 teams, without Youngstown and Muskegon I don't see that happening. There are not 4 viable OHL arenas available, even with the addition of a new arena in Burlington (in a minimum of 5 years) and the possibility of Belleville in 2 years, I don't see 2 other cities plus 4 ownership groups.
The league could throw USA Hockey a pile of money to make this happen or if they want to play hard ball, the nuclear option is a possibility. Owners could just decide to fold the USHL franchises. The owners hold the rights to the buildings. Just award expansion franchises to them. Then USA hockey doesn't get any say so. Of course that burns any bridges left between the two governing bodies.
 

Kingpin794

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If OHL expansion happens will it water the skill level of the league down? Or will more highly skilled American players come to the OHL to fill the void?
Americans AND Canadians. OHL will be getting guys like Lev Katzin to go along with US players. I always wonder what peoples definition of watered down is. This league is pumping out dozens of NHL picks, tons of players for the WJC, etc on a yearly basis. They have room for more teams.
 

bobber

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Americans AND Canadians. OHL will be getting guys like Lev Katzin to go along with US players. I always wonder what peoples definition of watered down is. This league is pumping out dozens of NHL picks, tons of players for the WJC, etc on a yearly basis. They have room for more teams.
Kingpin , my point is there are only so many Triple A players in Ontario that are able to play at this level. Many end up in Jr. B or Teir 2 which is basically the same thing. Not saying the USHL is watered down. If any league has a standard of skill required to play there , higher caliber players have to come from somewhere. I really only have knowledge of OHL players. I believe Only 2% of OHL players or less make the NHL. Not sure what the percentage is regarding Triple A players making OHL teams. I am sure it's quite high.
 

Kingpin794

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Kingpin , my point is there are only so many Triple A players in Ontario that are able to play at this level. Many end up in Jr. B or Teir 2 which is basically the same thing. Not saying the USHL is watered down. If any league has a standard of skill required to play there , higher caliber players have to come from somewhere. I really only have knowledge of OHL players. I believe Only 2% of OHL players or less make the NHL. Not sure what the percentage is regarding Triple A players making OHL teams. I am sure it's quite high.
You could cut the number of teams in the OHL in half and you’re still going to have the vast majority of players not make the NHL. That’s just the nature of pro sports. I think a better measure of how watered down or not a league is, is to see what they are producing per team within their designated age group. So in that 16-19 age range, what is the average team in your league producing? How many NHL picks do they have? How many guys does an average team have making WJC, Hlinka, U17 rosters? Pound for pound the OHL is ahead of other leagues right now. We’re a long way from watered down.
 
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EvenSteven

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If OHL expansion happens will it water the skill level of the league down? Or will more highly skilled American players come to the OHL to fill the void?
To answer that question:

Without having to change the current rules regarding number of imports, underagers, and OA’s per team, are there 100 players out there currently not in the OHL, who would come to the OHL, who are of the quality of current OHLers?

It would take 92-100 players to man up four new teams.

I wonder if there are. Especially if we see players go to NCAA programs after their 19 year old year.

I think you’d see some watering down but not a significant amount. Adding an import per team might make sense. Especially if we start losing OA’s to the NCAA. I don’t see us losing a ton of OA’s that way but there might be a few.
 
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EvenSteven

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I mean, I’m sure there are 100 players out there comparable to current OHL 4th liners. But we’d be looking for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd liners as well to prevent watering down.
 

HockeyPops

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Whether or not the OHL gets these two markets, the USHL is going to have to figure something out. OJHL will also have to figure something out. These leagues were kept relevant with NCAA players. Now nothing is keeping those players from going OHL.
 

OMG67

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Sep 1, 2013
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To answer that question:

Without having to change the current rules regarding number of imports, underagers, and OA’s per team, are there 100 players out there currently not in the OHL, who would come to the OHL, who are of the quality of current OHLers?

It would take 92-100 players to man up four new teams.

I wonder if there are. Especially if we see players go to NCAA programs after their 19 year old year.

I think you’d see some watering down but not a significant amount. Adding an import per team might make sense. Especially if we start losing OA’s to the NCAA. I don’t see us losing a ton of OA’s that way but there might be a few.

The issue will be goaltending. That seems to be the position that is always a struggle.

I really don’t see a big downside to expansion. However, certain rule changes like allowing 19 year olds into the AHL may cause an issue.

The reality is we need to align the CHL Leagues with the NHL. There have been a lot of changes with respect to development and the league itself getting younger. Maybe that is because of expansion there as well. But, the reality is, as the NHL expanded, so did the need for them to reach out further into other areas of the globe to satisfy the need for players. The NHL was mostly Canadian when the WHA folded into the NHL. 21 teasm chock full of Canadians with a handful of American’s and the odd Swede. Then came the Russians, the Finns, Czechs etc. The American programs grew and they started to become a true force.

This is about growing the game and aligning growth. The only reason to expand is to align with overall growth. The growth is stunted in Canada but it is not in the USA. The CHL needs more of a presence in the USA. That is where the players are mostly going to come from as the game grows in popularity. Essentially that is where the NHL will be fuelled in the future.

This whole expansion idea isn’t really about the OHL. It is about hockey in general and how it aligns as a supply chain for the NHL. It cannot be about the OHL. It is always about the NHL. If it is not good for the NHL, it isn’t good for hockey. The NHL will be the entity that will step in and assist with the appropriate alignment IF they feel it is needed. Where is the grass roots of hockey and how can that be expanded? How can we reach out and develop talent at a younger age and inspire those that aren’t playing to play. These are the questions right now and this is the focus on Canada and USA hockey. As the grassroots programs continue to grow, you need places for them to play. That starts in youth hockey which is why you see so much emphasis on FairPlay and inclusion. But, all of that comes to roost when it starts to magnify on the elite players.

If we cultivate elite players, they need a place to grow. The CHL has been and likely always will be the #1 Greenhouse. If/when expansion is required, they will expand and it will be forced upon them by the NHL.
 
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GoKnightsGo44

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If USA hockey continues to try to hold USHL ownership hostage, those owners will find a legal workaround at some point. The USHL was all ready a weak league before this season, now it’s devoid of all top talent as did the BCHL.

It only natural that they will contract. I would pay to watch that level of hockey honestly.

As for pivoting and expanding into Ontario, Chatham makes no sense. That city is dead, it attracts poor retirees from Toronto to sit in the casino all day. They can barely support the Maroons.

I could see Newmarket or Markham. If a rink was built Burlington or Cambridge those could be good markets.
 
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Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
If USA hockey continues to try to hold USHL ownership hostage, those owners will find a legal workaround at some point. The USHL was all ready a weak league before this season, now it’s devoid of all top talent as did the BCHL.

It only natural that they will contract. I would pay to watch that level of hockey honestly.

As for pivoting and expanding into Ontario, Chatham makes no sense. That city is dead, it attracts poor retirees from Toronto to sit in the casino all day. They can barely support the Maroons.

I could see Newmarket or Markham. If a rink was built Burlington or Cambridge those could be good markets.
Burlington is getting an arena, won't be ready for about 5 years
 

OMG67

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Sep 1, 2013
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If USA hockey continues to try to hold USHL ownership hostage, those owners will find a legal workaround at some point. The USHL was all ready a weak league before this season, now it’s devoid of all top talent as did the BCHL.

It only natural that they will contract. I would pay to watch that level of hockey honestly.

As for pivoting and expanding into Ontario, Chatham makes no sense. That city is dead, it attracts poor retirees from Toronto to sit in the casino all day. They can barely support the Maroons.

I could see Newmarket or Markham. If a rink was built Burlington or Cambridge those could be good markets.

That last statement is key. There are loads of communities in Ontario that could support an OHL team but they lack the appropriate facility to host them.

I am not sure what the status on prospective owners is but when a guy like DD ends up buying the Ice Dogs, you have to think there is a lack of potential owners as well. If there were a dearth of owners available to tap into, you’d think someone better than DD would have popped up and vetted better.

We know the GTA is not a strong market but any market that has a solid population matrix and economy should be able to support an OHL team provided they have an appropriate facility and they aren’t too close to another occupied territory.
 

bigsportsfan

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Sep 28, 2012
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I still don't get why the OHL would want to expand and apparently no one else does because it's been crickets on my questions.
The answer is greed. The expansion fee is going to be set for around $20 million. The individual teams will get a large percentage of that money. So four new teams means $80 million dollars. If the existing teams get 75% of that money, that’s $3 million per team. So the board of governors, which are the team owners, gives the commissioner a mandate to expand because it gives them millions of dollars.

Plus a $20 million dollar expansion fee increases the value of the existing teams. If a new team is worth $20 million, what’s an existing team worth.

The main benefit of expansion is to the existing team owners.
 

Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
The answer is greed. The expansion fee is going to be set for around $20 million. The individual teams will get a large percentage of that money. So four new teams means $80 million dollars. If the existing teams get 75% of that money, that’s $3 million per team. So the board of governors, which are the team owners, gives the commissioner a mandate to expand because it gives them millions of dollars.

Plus a $20 million dollar expansion fee increases the value of the existing teams. If a new team is worth $20 million, what’s an existing team worth.

The main benefit of expansion is to the existing team owners.
Who are the owners of Youngstown & Muskegon? Do they even have that kind of cash?

Whatever happens, it'll have to be done soon so the schedule maker can get to work on next season's schedule.
Pretty sure it's mostly done by computer
 

Kingpin794

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Who are the owners of Youngstown & Muskegon? Do they even have that kind of cash?


Pretty sure it's mostly done by computer
I’m sure any and all fees were discussed before the OHL voted on allowing the teams in. I’m also fairly certain the OHL knew that USA hockey would deny the move initially. There are steps that have to be taken in a certain order. They’ll move onto the next step to continue the process.
 
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Otto

Lynch Syndrome. Know your families cancer history
I’m sure any and all fees were discussed before the OHL voted on allowing the teams in. I’m also fairly certain the OHL knew that USA hockey would deny the move initially. There are steps that have to be taken in a certain order. They’ll move onto the next step to continue the process.
No doubt, I'm questioning the statement referring to these two teams having to pay $20 million to join the league.
 
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EvenSteven

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No doubt, I'm questioning the statement referring to these two teams having to pay $20 million to join the league.
And where did they come up with that number?

Anyone remember the expansion fees when Brampton / Missy joined the league?
 

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