CBJWerenski8
Rest in Peace Johnny
- Jun 13, 2009
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Not sure if this has any impact on offseason moves or planning but the CBJ were NOT one of the teams.
Offseason Roster Moves, Rumors, and Discussion
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Not sure if this has any impact on offseason moves or planning but the CBJ were NOT one of the teams.
KJ Dangler
Registered User
We can talk new player acquisitions all day long , unless the culture of this franchise from the top down changes , very little will change . Porty made a comment last Friday , when questions were asked about Boone Jenner leadership .. Porty said the room definitely needed more leadership , and players like Werenski, Gudbranson Kuraly , should be allowed to be a voice in the room , without fear of getting in trouble . Whose rule was this , Jarmo or PV ? To hear this was jarring , and I think Porty put this out there for a reason
Meanwhile We aquire LAINE , JG , they struggle here , but players like Peeke go to Boston , and are solid pieces for that team . There is utter disfunction in this organization if you have a locker room where natural leaders aren’t allowed to have a voice . Honestly this is reason enough to fire both Jarmo , and PV, but I sure would like to know whose directive this was . Being that PV played Boone 20 plus minutes a night , at the cost of getting younger players more minutes one could speculate this was a Vincent directive trying to prop up Boone as more of a leader , because I’ve never heard Porty discuss this when Larsen was the coach . And Peeke, Laine, JG are just quick examples before someone gets caught up on a certain name .
Meanwhile We aquire LAINE , JG , they struggle here , but players like Peeke go to Boston , and are solid pieces for that team . There is utter disfunction in this organization if you have a locker room where natural leaders aren’t allowed to have a voice . Honestly this is reason enough to fire both Jarmo , and PV, but I sure would like to know whose directive this was . Being that PV played Boone 20 plus minutes a night , at the cost of getting younger players more minutes one could speculate this was a Vincent directive trying to prop up Boone as more of a leader , because I’ve never heard Porty discuss this when Larsen was the coach . And Peeke, Laine, JG are just quick examples before someone gets caught up on a certain name .
makes significantly more sense to just keep laine, seeing as:
- he likely would cost assets to trade this summer
- he likely would generate a big return if he has a bounce-back year as a two-year, 50% retained rental
- if the 'vet' to replace him also comes via trade it's essentially paying twice to fill a spot that they already have a guy for
anecdotally, it was striking to see how many times this season the broadcast would show pascal vincent in the room between intermissions, talking to the players.
most coaches do that sparingly, and only if the team needs a wake-up call. others prefer to stay out of the room entirely (gallant).
jenner has never been described as a particularly vocal or in-your-face leader, which is fine, but it seems like the current hierarchy + propensity for PV to babysit this group has stifled the ability of others (gudbranson) to step into that role.
i like boone jenner, he's a good player and a hard worker and a player i've enjoyed watching during his time here.
that said, i've never understood why the media here trips over themselves to lionize his leadership traits while simultaneously decrying the lack of leadership in the room. there have been way too many nights where this team flat-up does not show up and, as captain, that does fall on him to some degree.
the fact that pascal vincent gave him more average ice time (20:06) than sidney crosby got this year (20:05) only reinforces the hierarchy.
to me, the fix for "not enough leadership" isn't to simply bring in more veteran players while keeping the hierarchy the same. it's to change the culture/hierarchy, challenge (and empower) other players to step up, and give the young guys more of a voice.
on that note, fantilli looks like a future captain to me – he's fiery. mateychuk's intangibles get similar praise to boone's. sillinger looks like he'll wear a letter someday. i'm not saying they should be wearing a letter, but they need to be empowered to shape the culture of the room.
Just another reason why we need to sign Nylander. If you can sign him for under or around 1M(which he will have to sign for because he has no data supporting him making more) and he produces at a similar rate, at the absolute worst we can recoup some picks at the TDL.
For the record I'm not saying he's going to turn into a yearly 30G guy, he in the right circumstances he can produce
I really just don't understand how we're having this conversation
KJ Dangler
Registered User
What Portzline said specifically on his podcast , was others like Werenski , Kuraly, Gudbranson .. SHOULD be able to speak up without FEAR of getting in trouble. If this was a Jarmo thing , he’s gone . If it was a Vincent thing, he Should be gone . Doesn’t do a bit of good to bring in more veterans if they aren’t allowed to influence the room .
Same reason I ranted last week , you can’t judge what these young players ceilings are .. the org is ran like cluster****.
for whatever reason Laine is done here ( which i hope not ) i think we should be targeting reinhart he could be that top line vet we are missing and help our pp with his net front talent ( obviously if the price is right )
if we win the draft i dont think we do anything and let the year play out haha
if we win the draft i dont think we do anything and let the year play out haha
it's gonna cost every bit of $10-11m+ to get reinhart out of florida imo, and he's not gonna score 57 goals again with out barkov or an elite power play.
like the player a lot, but the time to go get him was probably a couple years ago.
yeah should have grabbed jack as well haha!
sorry i didnt mean to put in wrong form!
I noticed young players turning to Gudbranson quite a lot this season. Werenski, too. To be honest, I don’t know that I noticed the same with Jenner as much, even when he was playing. I am starting to be swayed a bit by the Trade Jenner crowd, except that captain or not, he is still a veteran on a very young squad and that’s very valuable.
That would certainly be the correct xbox play.
We also have to factor in the player's desire to play as well as our locker room situation. Particularly with so many young players that need to be put in a position to succeed, we can't guarantee the same flexibility to Laine.
I actually think 26 is an ideal age for us.
There are a lot of underused players that pop around that age (see Vegas' expansion draft). Sometimes 23 year olds aren't quite ready to pop (see Duclair, Marchessault, etc...), and given the very young age of our roster I'd rather look at slightly more mature players.
KJ Dangler
Registered User
No.. he was asked specifically about Boones leadership , was it lacking .. he said specifically there needed to be more leadership in the room
And that guys like Werenski , Gudbranson , Kuraly should be able to have a voice without FEAR of getting in trouble . Those were his words
Double-Shift Lasse
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Yep.
Zach, Olivier, Provorov, and Severson are the only players on the regular roster between 26-29 and Severson is getting ready to "age out" of that before the start of next season. I think Bean would be there at the start of the season if he sticks around. Tarasov is getting ready to "age in" too.
I guess we can have a conversation but I think it's fair to say that only one of our key players is in that sweet spot as far as guys being in their prime. We should be looking to add a couple genuinely good players in that age range.
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Iron Balls McGinty
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- Aug 5, 2005
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Well, most of this behavior you are talking about all seems to predate PV running the show. Was that a Larsen thing he continued or a Torts thing Larsen continued?
In any event, the only common denominator in the situation is Jarmo. How much of it was his doing is hard to say but it's pretty obvious that from the coaching staff and above that they didn't like have their authority questioned and people who spoke out of turn were dealt with.
I will say PV made Gudbranson an alternate a year after he was essentially made to apologize for saying the team practiced like sh*t.
if he's not mentally ready to play, it's a moot point, because he can't be moved while in the assistance program.
chinakhov and marchenko both profile as eventual 50-60 point wingers. they're heading into their age 23 and 24 seasons, respectively. patrik laine, in his age 23-24 seasons, scored at an 80-point pace (108p in 111gp).
it's not an "xbox play" – it's practical asset management.
the best case is that he looks like himself and is healthy come deadline time, in which case you move him then to free up time for those young players and recoup significant assets.
the worst case is that he doesn't bounce back, and remains a negative asset. but then they just hold onto him until next summer, at which point he only has one year left, and they get the option to buy him out at a reasonable cost if they can't move him at 50% retention with one year left.
either way, they're better served waiting. otherwise they'd be rushing to move a 25-year-old who scores at an 80-point pace to make room for a 23-24 year-old, 50-60 point player and paying a significant asset cost to do so. but even that's a flawed premise because it assumes perfect health for a team (and players) who have not historically been reliable for that.
There's a possibility that he's excited to come back for say, Carolina, but not for us. We'll have to work with Patty and see what he wants. If he's at the point of moving on you just do it, it's more important than maxing assets.
I meant more than just making room on scoring lines or on the PP. Taking care of a player with, we'll say, significant volatility and inconsistency, takes a lot of oxygen and attention from others on the team and staff. And we have a lot of other players to deal with right now who need help learning how to do things right. We should want a simpler situation in the locker room.
KJ Dangler
Registered User
Maybe…I’m just listening to the podcast , and when he talked about other players filling the leadership void that exists in the room, which he felt there is … he specially said Werenski, Kuraly, Gudbranson need to know they can speak up, without fear of getting in trouble . That would be one hell of a leap for Porty to say that , and not know the dynamics in that locker room . He talks to players quite a bit .. lots of personalities that would be frustrated by that , especially if it’s a Pascal thing , and he could possibly be back
Actually just relistened , it’s at 47 minute mark , and I missed this part… he said he’s lead to believe this was a directive of the coaching staff , and not Boone … he said the veteran leaders need to be able to be leaders , more or less be able to hold the room accountable . Pascal needs to be sent packing
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Thanks for letting me know what time it was, I went back and listened to it too.
You are correct, that is what I'm hearing Porty say. I do think this is a serious issue. Porty went on to talk about the great leadership in the Jackets first couple years, leaders "who demanded that the young players do the right thing".
I think the likely context here is that there are concerns about older players mistreating younger players, and we've had these guardrails / kid gloves in place for several years now, ever since the turn in 2020. Certainly predating Vincent. You might recall the fuss about Laine being mistreated by older players in Winnipeg. We've got a lot of younger players that our veterans would like to push, but our coaches are cautious about any incidents. I'm personally on team veterans here.
Cowumbus
Registered User
Agreed. Which is what I’ve been saying.
Nylander is not proven at all. We are hoping/wishing for our reclamation project to be a late bloomer at age 26/27, and in general I think that’s too late for looking at guys to benefit from a change of scenery. Just like with Puljujarvi. Guys mostly are what they are at that point. Exactly why I wasn’t holding my breath for Laine to “develop” into a C.
Xoggz22
Registered User
Honest question... what's the difference between Peeke in Boston and Nylander here? I only ask because you picked an under performer here showing some success in Boston on short term viewing but don't compare a similar situation like Nylander coming here from a tough situation and showing success in a short term viewing. Why not Nylander vs Bemmstrom? He didn't thrive after leaving. I'm not trying to be difficult I just think we're so jaded that we only find things that went wrong or go wrong but fail to look at the fact the same goes the other way.
I guess, to me, it's easy to only see the bad when it really isn't only that. The bigger issue is the overall disfunction on the CBJ. I agree with you that that needs to be figured out and fixed.
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I would add. Andy needs excellent defensive system to know where to be at any given moment. We didn't have that and that's why he lost position more than once. Boston has.
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