Offseason Roster Moves, Rumors, and Discussion

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DoingItCoolKiwi

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I feel the main issue with Marner would be the upcoming contract. He isnt even ready to give discounts to his childhood team, so we can assume it'll be +13m with cbj. Especially since it'd be nagotiated before he agreed to waive the NMC. That's Matthews/McDavid/MacKinnon money for a winger that has consistently been outperformed by Nylander in playoffs. Marner would definitely make CBJ a lot better, but there would need to be discussion whether the cap will grow enough for that to be sustainable.

Btw, I bet Leafs would demand that Voronkov is included in the package. He's exactly what they need for those low scoring Bruins games
 

DoingItCoolKiwi

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Btw, I bet Leafs would demand that Voronkov is included in the package. He's exactly what they need for those low scoring Bruins games
Leafs need to clear cap space and get playoff performers. CBJ needs to move an expensive winger the other way. I imagine the trade would cost a shit ton of cap for CBJ in the form of new Marner contract + retained salary.

Something like:

Marner (re-signed 13,5m 8y)
For
Laine/Johnny (x % retained), Voronkov, KJ
 

koteka

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Anyone who offers Marner more than $9.5 million is stupid. Just because he makes more than that now doesn’t mean he deserves that much money in the future. His next salary should be based on what he is worth, and that is a contract like Johnny Hockey’s.
 
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Youngguns1380

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Leafs need to clear cap space and get playoff performers. CBJ needs to move an expensive winger the other way. I imagine the trade would cost a shit ton of cap for CBJ in the form of new Marner contract + retained salary.

Something like:

Marner (re-signed 13,5m 8y)
For
Laine/Johnny (x % retained), Voronkov, KJ
No
 

EspenK

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Anyone who offers Marner more than $9.5 million is stupid. Just because he makes more than that now doesn’t mean he deserves that much money in the future. His next salary should be based on what he is worth, and that is a contract like Johnny Hockey’s.
So you mean he'd suck (under perform) too? :sarcasm:
 

koteka

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So you mean he'd suck (under perform) too? :sarcasm:

You have to find the right contract where he doesn’t underperform too much. He underperforms $11 million. Johnny has been underperforming $9.5, but I think we’d be ok with 90 points for Johnny’s contract.
 

DoingItCoolKiwi

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No as in you dont want that trade (which is fine, I kinda agree with that), or do you think I'm wrong in some part of my trade crafting?

I feel the trade is reasonably realistic considering Johnny contract / Laine injuries, and unestablished KJ. Maybe strecthed Marners next contract a bit far. $12,5m would probably be more realistic
 
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Youngguns1380

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No as in you dont want that trade (which is fine, I kinda agree with that), or do you think I'm wrong in some part of my trade crafting?

I feel the trade is reasonably realistic considering Johnny contract / Laine injuries, and unestablished KJ. Maybe strecthed Marners next contract a bit far. $12,5m would probably be more realistic
No - from too much and would absolutely not include Voronkov.
 

VT

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No as in you dont want that trade (which is fine, I kinda agree with that), or do you think I'm wrong in some part of my trade crafting?

I feel the trade is reasonably realistic considering Johnny contract / Laine injuries, and unestablished KJ. Maybe strecthed Marners next contract a bit far. $12,5m would probably be more realistic
Laine's injuries were unfortunate, there's no other way to put it. Any NHL player would get hurt in these situations.
But whatever, he and Johnny aren't going to Toronto.
And I wouldn't give a dime for Marner.
 

DoingItCoolKiwi

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No - from too much and would absolutely not include Voronkov.
I have no issue with not making the trade.

What comes to price: 100 point two-way winger will be expensive. No one should act like he's some kind of cheap unwanted asset. There'll be 15 teams asking about him, so the trade will have to actually help with Leafs playoff/cap issues. I don't see anyone else than Voro in CBJ that would interest Leafs. With the contract Marner holds all the cards with his full NMC and UFA closing in.
 
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Youngguns1380

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I have no issue with not making the trade.

What comes to price: 100 point two-way winger will be expensive. No one should act like he's some kind of cheap unwanted asset. There'll be 15 teams asking about him, so the trade will have to actually help with Leafs playoff/cap issues. With the contract Marner holds all the cards with his full NMC and UFA closing in.
While I see Marner as a younger JG (for the most part), I don’t see the cost of who we would have to send the other way. Not to mention CAP implications. Would there be an improvement - yes but I don’t know if it makes us better in the long term.

If it is Laine and a pick plus a prospect (depending on the prospect), that might make sense. I don’t see JG going anywhere, Fantilli, Jiricek, Denton M, Voronkov, Boone, KJ or Marchenko. That leaves a possible 1-2 spots in the top 6. You still have Sillinger, Chinakov and possibly Brindley. Not to mention if we draft a 1st round forward.
 

DoingItCoolKiwi

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While I see Marner as a younger JG (for the most part), I don’t see the cost of who we would have to send the other way. Not to mention CAP implications. Would there be an improvement - yes but I don’t know if it makes us better in the long term.

If it is Laine and a pick plus a prospect (depending on the prospect), that might make sense. I don’t see JG going anywhere, Fantilli, Jiricek, Denton M, Voronkov, Boone, KJ or Marchenko. That leaves a possible 1-2 spots in the top 6. You still have Sillinger, Chinakov and possibly Brindley. Not to mention if we draft a 1st round forward.
Laine + prospect does nothing for them. I'm a Laine fanboy and even I can say that that's a downgrade in offense, defense, both special teams and consistency. And that's ignoring any health issues. For the cap relief of only 3m that's not even close to decent
 
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Youngguns1380

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Laine + prospect does nothing for them. I'm a Laine fanboy and even I can say that that's a downgrade in offense, defense, both special teams and consistency. For the cap relief of only 3m that's not even close to decent
You are missing the pick ('25 1st lottery protected) + Laine + Prospect (A), but I would not overpay for him.
 

DoingItCoolKiwi

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You are missing the pick + Laine + Prospect (A), but I would not overpay for him.
Skipped those because their core is on their prime. They need to capitalize on Matthews being the best goal scorer and a Hart contender. I doubt there's much interest in picks or non NHL ready prospects. A guy like KJ is on right on the border so he'd maybe be someone they'd like
 

VT

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Speaking of Toronto. I think they might be interested in not only Voronkov, but also Texier, Olivier, and possibly Danforth. A fourth line of Texier - Danforth - Olivier would be ideal for them (with it's salary problems).
 

Xoggz22

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fwiw nobody is saying the jackets should be in on him as a pure rental – the idea would be to get him to be part of a core with fantilli.

the only team that i think would be into him as a pure rental would probably be vegas.

i disagree with the notion that marner would be 'redundant' with the current set of wingers on the grounds that he's significantly better than all of them at just about everything.

he's the same size as kent johnson, but is an elite skater and a fully developed player.

he's got johnny gaudreau's hands/playmaking, but in a bigger package, elite defense, higher willingness to shoot and more consistent production.

he's far more productive and consistent than their current RW1 (laine) without the question marks about health/availability, is a better power play weapon, and, again, plays elite defense.

he scored at a 101-point per 82gp pace this year, higher than marchenko (44-point pace) and chinakhov (45-point pace) combined – again, while playing elite defense.
Great. My point is that he's incrementally better at one position we've got depth on and not a need. I love that he's scored so many points playing with Mathews and Nylander and Reilly and Tavares... We have all of ZERO of those players. Gaudreau is the closest and you're talking about replacing him with Marner (fine, an upgrade but, again, my opinion, doesn't really make us much better). So after his remaining year he'll be the same age Gaudrea was when he was signed, command more money, want long term and we still haven't address our needs.

I'm not arguing he isn't a better player. I just don't see how, even if he agreed to come to Columbus, and re-sign, this helps solve our current challenges. I will say he'd be a little closer to the younger group in Columbus by 3 years over Johnny at this point so that's a plus, but we still need the younger players to actually learn the game, grow up and become bonafide NHL players to support said Marner.

I may be out to lunch, that's fine. I just have no interest in him based on what I think it would cost us and based on how I feel our team is currently constructed. Great to talk about but just not a direction I would go.
 

Xoggz22

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Leafs need to clear cap space and get playoff performers. CBJ needs to move an expensive winger the other way. I imagine the trade would cost a shit ton of cap for CBJ in the form of new Marner contract + retained salary.

Something like:

Marner (re-signed 13,5m 8y)
For
Laine/Johnny (x % retained), Voronkov, KJ
That is what I call insanity. No way to I want Marner for 9 years at that type of financial commitment. I think he's a great player but we're now chewing up MORE CAP on a player that isn't much different than we're trading away? and now we have one less center of value (Yes, I think Voronkov is a value guy). I may be on an island but there is no way I'm going that big for that guy. He's been playing with elite players on an excellent team (just can't seem to get over the hump). Columbus is NOT that and is a ways from being close to that.
 

Xoggz22

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So you mean he'd suck (under perform) too? :sarcasm:
Just like Johnny... if you're paying him for how he performs on his current team and expecting the same result in Columbus (based on this current group of players) he's going to well underperform fan expectations. It wont' matter who it is, they aren't putting up the same stats as with their former team. I think that's why I'm so averse to this. I think those that are really interested in brining him here think he's going to maintain his 90+ point pace. I just don't see it. and then you'll pay even more for him. Just not for me (not implying he is for you, just thought this post was a good one to add my next rant to :))
 
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cbjthrowaway

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Great. My point is that he's incrementally better at one position we've got depth on and not a need.
he's far more than 'incrementally' better than laine, marchenko and chinakhov – three talented but inconsistent players who struggle in their own end. marner is arguably the best defensive winger in the league and scores at a higher rate than johnny gaudreau.

he is significantly better than gaudreau. he's bolded, all-caps SIGNIFICANTLY better than laine. and there may not be a word strong enough to describe the chasm between marner and the other wings (kj, chinakhov, marchenko) on the roster.

it's like saying jarmo shouldn't have bothered giving up saad to get panarin.

Gaudreau is the closest and you're talking about replacing him with Marner (fine, an upgrade but, again, my opinion, doesn't really make us much better).
mitch marner plays 21+ minutes a night, and absolutely demolishes tough matchups at both ends of the ice. as good as gaudreau is, he doesn't do that.

it's not "marner or gaudreau" because the idea is to have marner and gaudreau, whether on the same line or on different lines with JG feasting on easier matchups on L2.
So after his remaining year he'll be the same age Gaudrea was when he was signed, command more money, want long term and we still haven't address our needs.
the "current needs" angle is way overstated.

that list of needs is a relic left by a dead regime. why even bring in a new GM if the directive is to stay the course with a few patchwork fixes? that's not how it works.

it's a young roster that just finished bottom-five two years running. aside from fantilli, none of the young guys profile to be nearly the player that mitch marner is.

even with cbj being relatively stronger on the wing compared to other positions, acquiring a player of marner's caliber turns it into a bona fide strength relative to the rest of the league. they can then weaponize that depth to address other needs or make more substantial improvements.

I may be out to lunch, that's fine. I just have no interest in him based on what I think it would cost us and based on how I feel our team is currently constructed. Great to talk about but just not a direction I would go.
that's fine, my position is that a team constructed with fantilli + marner as the top two forwards has a significantly stronger foundation than any feasible alternative.
 
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cbjthrowaway

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If Brady Tkachuk shakes loose then he's a much more compelling target for the Jackets than Mitch Marner. He fits the roster we have better and has more upside for the playoffs.

But @cbjthrowaway has made a compelling case for Marner, assuming Tkachuk isn't available. I think we've got to be ready to add elite talent through any means - draft, UFA, and trade.
i think marner is a significantly better player overall than brady tkachuk, but tkachuk is a similarly appealing target to me. given ages and contract situations, i'd be willing to pay a higher acquisition price for tkachuk than marner.
 

Forepar

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Marner, imo is redundant is some respects to JG. Marner is a much better defender than JG, but offensively redundant as a perimeter player.
From watching 7 PO games, Marner would not be a change-in-culture acquisition.

I'm with the camp that would attempt to grab Tkachuk. That is the type of player needed to not only be successful but to infuse the culture change that makes CBJ a pain in the ass and ribs to play against. There are not many of those.
That's what makes McDavid such a unicorn - he's not just ultra-talented but he skates at a beyond-elite level and has the motor to take those skills wherever necessary on the ice. You don't think of McDavid as physical but watch EDM play this next series. McDavid is the Alpha Dog - EDM finally has some others around him (other than Draistl who is a unicorn in his own right) to where they are a threat every year. No doubt McDavid will never be available - the point is that if you can grab a player with both skill and motor, you do what you have to do to get that player when your roster lacks that motor. This isn't the player who puts you over the top - this is the player you MUST to have in your core to begin to move forward. Tkachuk fits that bill for me.

Culture change cannot just be at the upper management-GM-coaching level - that will take 10-15 years to result in changes on the ice. Not fast enough for most of us. That management change is needed, but it is not enough.

Culture change is needed at practice, in the room and in games - it's demanding of Fantilli, KJ, Jiricek, Mateychuk, Marchenko, etc.. on a nightly basis that it takes "balls" to be successful in the NHL long-term. To bring your A-type personality to every game, to play their individual roles as best they can without fear. It's having the bona fides to tell a JG that he needs to man up and play through the holding, clutching and grabbing, to play like the stud he is even when things aren't going right. The bona fides to challenge Boone to play even harder --- if for no other reason than so that a coach CANNOT play Boone 23 minutes a night. To challenge Z to bring more to the table. To give Elvis the BIG kick in the ass (maybe too late for that now). To challenge the coach (behind the closed door) about Boone's minutes, about the fact that Gudbranson's comments about practice last year were correct - about anything. That doesn't seem to describe Boone. He's a leader by example, he's a good soldier who keeps the company line in mind - and you need those too. But you MUST have an Alpha Dog or some combination of players that together are the Alpha Dog mentality- and CBJ lacks that and has lacked it for a while. That was a combination of Foligno, Dubinsky, maybe Seth, and maybe even Panarin (if you wanted the puck). None since.

The entire roster, except for very few, need to up the constant intensity of their game no matter what game or period or score. Intensity should not be mistaken for "hits" or "scrums" or "fights." It may be that for Olivier - but that is his role! Intensity is nothing more than playing with the belief that each player's best attributes must be brought to the table every shift. It is playing their game without fear and without stats in mind. Play your role to the max, whatever it is, and let the results follow. Boone has the motor but appears neither talented enough nor verbal/confrontational enough to get others who are inherently passive players (albeit with more talent) to increase their intensity with him. He's not the Alpha Dog - he's a pack dawg. From my seat, I see Boone being often effective in dragging his own linemates into the fray - by example and a few words. But he appears not as adept at dragging higher-talented players with him (looking at you, JG and PL) as he is in getting equally-talented or less-talented players to engage when on his line. I also see him not as effective in dragging other lines or D-men into the fray on a consistent basis. Boone keeps banging on the drum but ...no one seems to hear the beat. Too many others back off their best game when things get tough.

Marner is a wonderful player but not the Alpha Dog to cause others to intensify their game. JG is not that type of player/leader. Laine is not that. At times I am not sure Z is that (sometimes he is). But JG-Laine-Z all could be better at it, even if not their calling card. I am not suggesting jettisoning any/all of those players; CBJ (every team) needs players with their skill level - and more. They need a play-making KJ. They need JG darting all over the ice. They need Gudbranson to keep bringing energy, just wish he had more talent to add. They need Boone to just keep playing hard - on the 3rd line. Marner is the player you get when you are close, imo. CBJ is not close.

They need Fantilli to be the next Alpha Dog - but he's not ready yet and won't be for a few years - and until someone shows him how it's done.

To me, CBJ's obvious need is for an Alpha Dog, now, with high skill but also a high motor who can drag 10+ players a night with him whether those players follow organically or kicking/screaming. CBJ won't challenge for the PO's for a year or two, but that constant beat needs to start now if they want to be there after 2 years. Something has to change - that's why I favor a Tkachuk who at least from games I watch and things I read is that combatant, that Alpha Dog, who not only has the skill and intensity in his own game, but effectively DEMANDS that others bring it nightly.
 
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stevo61

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Jul 5, 2011
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Marner, imo is redundant is some respects to JG. Marner is a much better defender than JG, but offensively redundant as a perimeter player.
From watching 7 PO games, Marner would not be a change-in-culture acquisition.

I'm with the camp that would attempt to grab Tkachuk. That is the type of player needed to not only be successful but to infuse the culture change that makes CBJ a pain in the ass and ribs to play against. There are not many of those.
That's what makes McDavid such a unicorn - he's not just ultra-talented but he skates at a beyond-elite level and has the motor to take those skills wherever necessary on the ice. You don't think of McDavid as physical but watch EDM play this next series. McDavid is the Alpha Dog - EDM finally has some others around him (other than Draistl who is a unicorn in his own right) to where they are a threat every year. No doubt McDavid will never be available - the point is that if you can grab a player with both skill and motor, you do what you have to do to get that player when your roster lacks that motor. This isn't the player who puts you over the top - this is the player you MUST to have in your core to begin to move forward. Tkachuk fits that bill for me.

Culture change cannot just be at the upper management-GM-coaching level - that will take 10-15 years to result in changes on the ice. Not fast enough for most of us. That management change is needed, but it is not enough.

Culture change is needed at practice, in the room and in games - it's demanding of Fantilli, KJ, Jiricek, Mateychuk, Marchenko, etc.. on a nightly basis that it takes "balls" to be successful in the NHL long-term. To bring your A-type personality to every game, to play their individual roles as best they can without fear. It's having the bona fides to tell a JG that he needs to man up and play through the holding, clutching and grabbing, to play like the stud he is even when things aren't going right. The bona fides to challenge Boone to play even harder --- if for no other reason than so that a coach CANNOT play Boone 23 minutes a night. To challenge Z to bring more to the table. To give Elvis the BIG kick in the ass (maybe too late for that now). To challenge the coach (behind the closed door) about Boone's minutes, about the fact that Gudbranson's comments about practice last year were correct - about anything. That doesn't seem to describe Boone. He's a leader by example, he's a good soldier who keeps the company line in mind - and you need those too. But you MUST have an Alpha Dog or some combination of players that together are the Alpha Dog mentality- and CBJ lacks that and has lacked it for a while. That was a combination of Foligno, Dubinsky, maybe Seth, and maybe even Panarin (if you wanted the puck). None since.

The entire roster, except for very few, need to up the constant intensity of their game no matter what game or period or score. Intensity should not be mistaken for "hits" or "scrums" or "fights." It may be that for Olivier - but that is his role! Intensity is nothing more than playing with the belief that each player's best attributes must be brought to the table every shift. It is playing their game without fear and without stats in mind. Play your role to the max, whatever it is, and let the results follow. Boone has the motor but appears neither talented enough nor verbal/confrontational enough to get others who are inherently passive players (albeit with more talent) to increase their intensity with him. He's not the Alpha Dog - he's a pack dawg. From my seat, I see Boone being often effective in dragging his own linemates into the fray - by example and a few words. But he appears not as adept at dragging higher-talented players with him (looking at you, JG and PL) as he is in getting equally-talented or less-talented players to engage when on his line. I also see him not as effective in dragging other lines or D-men into the fray on a consistent basis. Boone keeps banging on the drum but ...no one seems to hear the beat. Too many others back off their best game when things get tough.

Marner is a wonderful player but not the Alpha Dog to cause others to intensify their game. JG is not that type of player/leader. Laine is not that. At times I am not sure Z is that (sometimes he is). But JG-Laine-Z all could be better at it, even if not their calling card. I am not suggesting jettisoning any/all of those players; CBJ (every team) needs players with their skill level - and more. They need a play-making KJ. They need JG darting all over the ice. They need Gudbranson to keep bringing energy, just wish he had more talent to add. They need Boone to just keep playing hard - on the 3rd line.

They need Fantilli to be the next Alpha Dog - but he's not ready yet and won't be for a few years - and until someone shows him how it's done.

To me, CBJ's obvious need is for an Alpha Dog, now, with high skill but also a high motor who can drag 10+ players a night with him whether those players follow organically or kicking/screaming. CBJ won't challenge for the PO's for a year or two, but that constant beat needs to start now if they want to be there after 2 years. Something has to change - that's why I favor a Tkachuk who at least from games I watch and things I read is that combatant, that Alpha Dog, who not only has the skill and intensity in his own game, but effectively DEMANDS that others bring it nightly.
Man that sounds like someone a team trying to take the next step could use. Ottawa could use 1 of them, I bet they'd be a contender with an "alpha dog"
 
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Double-Shift Lasse

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On the Brady Tkachuk front -- there have been two times I identified a player who I thought would be a perfect fit for the Jackets prior to them even being considered available or included in rumors of any kind. Just players in the league who fit a need and made the overall roster better. Eventually, both of those players were traded for by the CBJ. One was Antoine Vermette, the other was Nick Foligno.

Now, I have no love for the Tkachuk family, so I've never allowed myself to have any feeling regarding bringing them to Columbus. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen.
 
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