GDT: Offseason 2023 Thread - Now what do we do?

[SlavinAway]

I get that mindset, but holy hell, what did you want them to do re: Tkachuk and/or Meier?

Every indication is that we were the front runners for Tkachuk, but Florida made an offer in the final minutes that was well above what Carolina or St. Louis offered. And when the deal came out, yeah, that was true. No matter who Carolina had on the table, it wasn't a 115-point player + a good, young defenseman. We were competitive and leading the pack for most of the trade process, but we couldn't compete if that was an offer available.

Meier was a bit different, because it seemed less about what Carolina offered and more about what Meier/San Jose wanted. Rumor had it that our offer for Meier was better than Jersey's, but either Meier or Grier preferred the Devils. Not much that can be done there. We made the best offer (allegedly) and still missed out.

So yeah, I get that it's frustrating to be the bridesmaid of some of these major deals, but I can't really see how the Borg is to blame for the results. It's not like they did anything wrong in either situation.

This!

 

[Svechhammer]

I get that mindset, but holy hell, what did you want them to do re: Tkachuk and/or Meier?

Every indication is that we were the front runners for Tkachuk, but Florida made an offer in the final minutes that was well above what Carolina or St. Louis offered. And when the deal came out, yeah, that was true. No matter who Carolina had on the table, it wasn't a 115-point player + a good, young defenseman. We were competitive and leading the pack for most of the trade process, but we couldn't compete if that was an offer available.

Meier was a bit different, because it seemed less about what Carolina offered and more about what Meier/San Jose wanted. Rumor had it that our offer for Meier was better than Jersey's, but either Meier or Grier preferred the Devils. Not much that can be done there. We made the best offer (allegedly) and still missed out.

So yeah, I get that it's frustrating to be the bridesmaid of some of these major deals, but I can't really see how the Borg is to blame for the results. It's not like they did anything wrong in either situation.

There's always an excuse to why we can't do things. For once, I want this organization to actually do it.

And quite frankly, this front office constructed this team. If we don't have a 100 point forward that we can dangle in a trade for a player like Tkachuk, that is on them for not being able to draft or sign that player earlier. At a certain point, the questions need to be asked about why the roster they have constructed is good, but not good enough to get us over the hump, and the individual players they have collected aren't good enough to go big game hunting for the kind of upgrades we need to push us over the hump.

 

[raynman]

There's always an excuse to why we can't do things. For once, I want this organization to actually do it.

And quite frankly, this front office constructed this team. If we don't have a 100 point forward that we can dangle in a trade for a player like Tkachuk, that is on them for not being able to draft or sign that player earlier. At a certain point, the questions need to be asked about why the roster they have constructed is good, but not good enough to get us over the hump, and the individual players they have collected aren't good enough to go big game hunting for the kind of upgrades we need to push us over the hump.

It’s always a huge risk to trade a 100 point guy like that though. How many people thought Tkachuk was going to keep up the scoring and go beast mode if Florida made the playoffs?

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

I would shit or get off the pot about Rod’s style as well. Give him the type of player he needs instead of smaller offensive types or old dudes just willing to take orders. We go far with guys not necessarily playing the game they’re made for but they buy into the system. If we’re gonna grind - upgrade the grinders. They’ll excel at the system.

This I agree with. Make it a Crouse or a Wilson or whoever. Or if not a heavy hitter, at least a savvy two-way player that still brings the offense. Not Paul Stastny or whatever. I do think Pacioretty more or less fit the bill on that.

It's a total pipe dream of a major, major splash, but on the "non-power forward" front, I do think a guy like Marner might excel here. Smart puckhound of a defender (system fit) with the world class skill (obvious team need). But we do need a banger or two. KK's proven to be a better and better fit as time's gone on, Svech is a big boy, but other than that it's smurfs in the top 6.

 

[Svechhammer]

It’s always a huge risk to trade a 100 point guy like that though. How many people thought Tkachuk was going to keep up the scoring and go beast mode if Florida made the playoffs?

I mean Tkachuk is a 25 year old top line center who was around a PPG player for the last 5 years in Calgary before cracking 100 last year and plays a tough physical game that drives play. It was absolutely not unexpected that he'd be able to keep that kind of play up no matter where he went, and we should have been willing to sell the farm to bring him in.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

There's always an excuse to why we can't do things. For once, I want this organization to actually do it.

And quite frankly, this front office constructed this team. If we don't have a 100 point forward that we can dangle in a trade for a player like Tkachuk, that is on them for not being able to draft or sign that player earlier. At a certain point, the questions need to be asked about why the roster they have constructed is good, but not good enough to get us over the hump, and the individual players they have collected aren't good enough to go big game hunting for the kind of upgrades we need to push us over the hump.

I mean... how did Florida get Huberdeau and how did Calgary get Tkachuk?

I think the only real logical conclusion to the point you're making here is that we should blame the front office for drafting Svechnikov instead of a 100 point forward with the 2oa pick?

Because otherwise you're getting mad that we don't have any 100 point players good enough to trade for other 100 point players. If we aren't drafting them, where else are they coming from?


You've been asked several times - what would your offer for Tkachuk have been? Would you have traded Svechnikov and, say, Pesce, for Tkachuk last season? (Note: not now. Last offseason.)

 

[Svechhammer]

I mean... how did Florida get Huberdeau and how did Calgary get Tkachuk?

I think the only real logical conclusion to the point you're making here is that we should blame the front office for draft Svechnikov instead of a 100 point forward with the 2oa pick?

Because otherwise you're getting mad that we don't have any 100 point players good enough to trade for other 100 point players. If we aren't drafting them, where else are they coming from?


You've been asked several times - what would your offer for Tkachuk have been? Would you have traded Svechnikov and, say, Pesce, for Tkachuk last season? (Note: not now. Last offseason.)

For Tkachuk?

Aho, Pesce+

There would have been mutiny throughout the fanbase, but knowing he was willing to sign 8 years wherever he went, it would have been worth it to bring in the exact kind of player we need.

 

[dogbazinho]

If we money puck which seems to be our strategy I still don't understand why we let players negotiate on their terms and let them walk when we don't meet their demands. Assests returned from Hamilton or Trocheck w/ a year left in their contract could have allowed us to overspend towards Meier or Tkachuk. I get it "missed window" and all that.

We could not have beat Tkachuk offer aside from not letting it happen in the first place. IE Waddell probably is a relaxed negotiator and our offer and any contingencies didn't scream lets go.

 

[SlavinAway]

For Tkachuk?

Aho, Pesce+

There would have been mutiny throughout the fanbase, but knowing he was willing to sign 8 years wherever he went, it would have been worth it to bring in the exact kind of player we need.

You really would've traded Aho for Tkachuk?!

We'd be running KK + Staal as 1-2C.

 

[LBS I Digress]

Do you guys think there’s a possibility that Arizona would look to move Cooley with his possible hold out over all their uncertainty? I’m not sure it helps us for next year if he’s saying in college regardless, but he could fit nicely as a possible 2C if he were to pan out like he’s suppose to. Aho-Cooley-KK would be a great center depth.

 

[Sigurd]

If we money puck which seems to be our strategy I still don't understand why we let players negotiate on their terms and let them walk when we don't meet their demands. Assests returned from Hamilton or Trocheck w/ a year left in their contract could have allowed us to overspend towards Meier or Tkachuk. I get it "missed window" and all that.

This is a great point.

This is the reason why as much as it'd suck to lose one of Skjei or Pesce, given all of the contracts that expire in the summer of '24 and the difficulty of resigning everyone, why would you not trade one of them for an elite top 6 forward (as part of our package) if available?

As Canes fans, and Carolina as an organization, we've been down this road before with major players not being resigned due to contract value disputes between the front office and players.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

For Tkachuk?

Aho, Pesce+

There would have been mutiny throughout the fanbase, but knowing he was willing to sign 8 years wherever he went, it would have been worth it to bring in the exact kind of player we need.

Receipts are a hell of a thing man. Here's what you said at the time:

"In order to reasonably fit Tkachuk into our roster, one of our Top 6 has to go. We literally cannot afford to bring him in without him replacing one of our larger contracts, and there's a fat chance in hell that Calgary accepts an offer of Necas, Martinook, Gardiner and some draft picks for him.

You're probably looking at something like Turbo, Necas, and a 1st for him at a start."

As far as your opinion of what Florida did:

"I mean we almost got Tkachuk until Florida panicked, so it would very much be part of our MO to pull off this kind of trade, even if it means an extension is coming."

"One thing you cannot argue is that this front office is seemingly prepared for everything. They have backup plans for their backup plans if we move on from players currently on the team. We also have multiple paths to improvement that we can pursue every year, and have an uncanny way of knowing when there is an opportunity to leverage a team in a bad spot to get a big roster improvement (Patches and Coghlan for literally nothing or getting the draft pick that ends up being Jarvis for choosing to buy out Marleau). And that's without realizing we were heavily in on both Marchmant and Tkachuk until other teams essentially panicked and overpaid."

Florida "panicked and overpaid" with what they sent to Calgary. Turbo, Necas (last year's RFA Necas, not the 70pt man), and a 1st was suggested.

So... I'm calling bullshit that you would've given up Aho and Pesce+ lmao.

 

[dogbazinho]

In a more positive vein. I think us targeting KK (and Thachuk, and Meier) was an admission that our team targets size and youth. It's disappointing we seemed to miss on other players so hopefully they'll step up their efforts.

 

[raynman]

I mean Tkachuk is a 25 year old top line center who was around a PPG player for the last 5 years in Calgary before cracking 100 last year and plays a tough physical game that drives play. It was absolutely not unexpected that he'd be able to keep that kind of play up no matter where he went, and we should have been willing to sell the farm to bring him in.

He’s not a center.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

If we money puck which seems to be our strategy I still don't understand why we let players negotiate on their terms and let them walk when we don't meet their demands. Assests returned from Hamilton or Trocheck w/ a year left in their contract could have allowed us to overspend towards Meier or Tkachuk. I get it "missed window" and all that.

We could not have beat Tkachuk offer aside from not letting it happen in the first place. IE Waddell probably is a relaxed negotiator and our offer and any contingencies didn't scream lets go.

Assets meaning draft picks?

It's certainly a valid strategy. But you can't hold this criticism in one hand and a criticism that they didn't do anything at the deadline in another hand. "Own rentals" and all that is usually a cop out, but not when you're also holding "they should've traded him for draft picks with one year left" at the same time. Then it truly is an "own rental" situation.

 

[dogbazinho]

This is the reason why as much as it'd suck to lose one of Skjei or Pesce, given all of the contracts that expire in the summer of '24 and the difficulty of resigning everyone, why would you not trade one of them for an elite top 6 forward (as part of our package) if available?

We should 100% be having conversations about their ranges and if outside what we are willing to offer be willing to trade them.

Assets meaning draft picks?

It's certainly a valid strategy. But you can't hold this criticism in one hand and a criticism that they didn't do anything at the deadline in another hand. "Own rentals" and all that is usually a cop out, but not when you're also holding "they should've traded him for draft picks with one year left" at the same time. Then it truly is an "own rental" situation.

Thats my issue its the overall inconsistency. I'm actually on board with the franchises stance towards not acquiring rentals. However, they don't seem to keep mind keeping our own players as you describe "self rentals." I'm still not sure if it's our inability to properly gauge where we are in the negotation process or bad evaluations or what. I think this falls a bit in Waddels responsibility and he probably should be getting held accountable.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Thats my issue its the overall inconsistency. I'm actually on board with the franchises stance towards not acquiring rentals. However, they don't seem to keep mind keeping our own players as you describe "self rentals." I'm still not sure if it's our inability to properly gauge where we are in the negotation process or bad evaluations or what. I think this falls a bit in Waddels responsibility and he probably should be getting held accountable.

Maybe, or maybe it's just "why do rentals at the trade deadline that have to come learn a new system and are ultimately a total wildcard when we can keep the folks we know are good."

I do agree though on a guy like, say, Dougie. If you're gonna money puck, might as well go full out money puck.

 

[CanesUltimate11]

Priority #1 has to be to bring in a legitimate proven top line forward to play with Aho so he can stop being relied upon to babysit our young kids all the time.

Priority #2 has to be to fix the power play. It cost us at least the last 2 years in the playoffs and there is no excuse anymore. Rod, fix it or you're answering some really tough questions after next season.

Ideally fixing Priority #1 immediately leads to the fixing of Priority #2.

 

[Negan4Coach]

At the very least upgrade the grinders to heavy hitters. Florida hit us hard enough over the series to make us stop playing our style long enough to sweep us. We need to have the players physical enough to see Brindy's style to its fullest.

One other thing we need is are guys who can pick a corner and consistently shoot for it. Florida was noticeably going top corner every time they had an open look all playoff long against Freddie and beat him enough times to win. On the other hand seemingly every time we had an open look we pumped a shot into the pads or into the chest logo. You go back and watch the series again and it's noticeable that they had an offensive strategy against our goalie and we didn't against theirs.

This has been a problem for a long time, and they don't seem inclined to change it.

I don't think the front office is going to learn any lessons from this fiasco. What they will learn is "We won the division again and got to the ECF with a depleted team-we need to stay the course and focus on just being in the playoffs every year, you never know which way things break, etc."

 

[Svechhammer]

I don't think the front office is going to learn any lessons from this fiasco. What they will learn is "We won the division again and got to the ECF with a depleted team-we need to stay the course and focus on just being in the playoffs every year, you never know which way things break, etc."

I mean you're most likely correct. You're already seeing the usual suspects starting to spin the season in this direction, so the built in excuse on running it back is already there.

 

[dogbazinho]

I personally hope we try another offer sheet. We seem to offer "fair" trades with limited takers.

 

[CanesUltimate11]

I mean Tkachuk is a 25 year old top line center who was around a PPG player for the last 5 years in Calgary before cracking 100 last year and plays a tough physical game that drives play. It was absolutely not unexpected that he'd be able to keep that kind of play up no matter where he went, and we should have been willing to sell the farm to bring him in.

So I will ask again, what do you add or replace to something like Necas + Pesce+ that beats out the Florida offer and doesn't cripple the team in the long run.

For Tkachuk?

Aho, Pesce+

There would have been mutiny throughout the fanbase, but knowing he was willing to sign 8 years wherever he went, it would have been worth it to bring in the exact kind of player we need.

So instead of a top line center with minimal wingers we have a top line left wing with no center for him.

 

[Svechhammer]

So I will ask again, what do you add or replace to something like Necas + Pesce+ that beats out the Florida offer and doesn't cripple the team in the long run.


So instead of a top line center with minimal wingers we have a top line left wing with no center for him.

And again, you're latching onto one event here or there to prove a point when we're trying to argue that we're tired of watching the front office fail to land the big fish every single time. There's always an excuse. Always.

I'm tired of the excuses. I'm tired of watching us try to rationalize why we really did the right thing by not paying the price necessary to get the players we need to take the next step. Ok, Florida "panicked" and overpaid for Tkachuk. I don't think anyone gives a shit about that right now when he scores 3 game winners in the ECF en route to a series sweep over us.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

So instead of a top line center with minimal wingers we have a top line left wing with no center for him.

I mean, our “minimal” wingers going into the season were Svechnikov, Necas, Jarvis, Teravainen.

That’s a group that’s much closer to the top of the league than the bottom.

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

And again, you're latching onto one event here or there to prove a point when we're trying to argue that we're tired of watching the front office fail to land the big fish every single time. There's always an excuse. Always.

I'm tired of the excuses. I'm tired of watching us try to rationalize why we really did the right thing by not paying the price necessary to get the players we need to take the next step. Ok, Florida "panicked" and overpaid for Tkachuk. I don't think anyone gives a shit about that right now when he scores 3 game winners in the ECF en route to a series sweep over us.

You’re the one latching onto this one event. See both bolded statements in your very same post lol. Florida got Tkachuk. We got Pacioretty, Burns. We were both thrilled with our offseasons (you, specifically, Svechhammer, were thrilled with our offseason). We both met in the Conference Finals. One team won. That’s hockey. You don’t get to go back now and say you would’ve done it differently now that you know that Florida went on an insane run. Learn the lesson, apply your learnings to future offseasons, move on, and calm down.