Offre hostile possibilities

[My Special Purpose]

So I'm starting this thread to discuss possible targets for offer sheets. But I also feel the need to make a point that just plain gets ignored around here.

Restricted free agency *is* free agency. It is literally the same as any other type of free agency in that all 30 teams (aside from the current team) have the same opportunity to discuss contracts with free agents and potentially, sign them if there is a fit between team and player. The signed document -- an offer sheet -- is a contract in every way but one, the right of first refusal for the original team.

Restricted free agency is "restricted" because there is compensation for signing a player away from another team, and that team has the opportunity to match any signed offer sheet (contract). But in every other way, it is exactly the same as free agency. Players can choose to talk to whatever teams he wants to talk to. Players can negotiate with any team they want to. Players can eliminate teams for any reason they want, and are free to lie about why.

It *is* free agency.

As such, it is *not* any more realistic to think that a restricted free agent will sign with us than an unrestricted free agent will sign with us. Because of the overly restrictive nature of NHL restricted free agency, players don't get many actual offers in restricted free agency. But that does not change the fact that a player *still* gets to choose his team and negotiate his terms.

When thinking about possible RFA targets for Carolina, we *must* consider the likelihood the player will sign with us, *exactly* the same as we would with unrestricted free agency. The recruitment of the player is *exactly* the same. Restricted free agents won't sign whatever is put in front of them any more than unrestricted free agents will. The deal has to work for both player and team. It has to be a contract both parties are perfectly willing to live with for the duration of the contract.

We cannot keep treating offer sheets as anything other than free agent contracts, because that is what they are.

This *this* is the real reason so few offer sheets get signed. It's a lousy process for switching teams. Trading is still very much preferred by all parties. I know talking about offer sheets is fun, because they are so rare. But if we're going to discuss them, let's at least deal with them as they exist in practice, and not just as theoretical items to be tossed around. It *is* a contract between a team and a player.

Sorry, I had to get that off my chest.

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[Navin R Slavin]

THIS IS ALL VERY INTERESTING BUT WHERE IS THE GDT

 

[Anton Dubinchuk]

Kasperi Kapanen has a history here.

 

[Chrispy]

Kasperi Kapanen has a history here.

Agree, it’s odd to see kev pushing that players won’t sign here when the primary target mentioned spent his toddler years here while his father played here and continued to own a bar downtown after he left.

If there’s an RFA to argue would have a reason to sign here it’s Kapanen. Cap space to pay him (means), history here (motive), and the chance to be a top righty forward on a top line and Pp (opportunity).

 

[My Special Purpose]

Agree, it’s odd to see kev pushing that players won’t sign here when the primary target mentioned spent his toddler years here while his father played here and continued to own a bar downtown after he left.

If there’s an RFA to argue would have a reason to sign here it’s Kapanen. Cap space to pay him (means), history here (motive), and the chance to be a top righty forward on a top line and Pp (opportunity).

And I'm not saying he won't. I'm just saying it's no more certain to happen than it is that any other free agent signs here. We're treating it like a foregone conclusion that if we decide to offer sheet Kapanen, that he will sign it. All I'm saying is that he'll have a lot of options at that point. We have a lot of things going for us, but it's not automatic by any means.

 

[emptyNedder]

Interesting write up--loved the passion. My only quibble is with this:

It *is* free agency.

A truly free agent can tell his current team to defenestrate the GM or coach or both. An RFA might well still be playing for that GM and coach. The team still has the last offer. The player cannot refuse that offer if it matches--thus the player is restricted. Until UFA status the team really controls the situation. If someone other than the player controls the situation, the player is not free in any meaningful sense.

I totally agree that an offer sheet is a contract between a team and a player just like a UFA contract. The important difference is that the RFA contract can be voided by the current team. That is a big contractual difference.

 

[MinJaBen]

And I'm not saying he won't. I'm just saying it's no more certain to happen than it is that any other free agent signs here. We're treating it like a foregone conclusion that if we decide to offer sheet Kapanen, that he will sign it. All I'm saying is that he'll have a lot of options at that point. We have a lot of things going for us, but it's not automatic by any means.

I think we are all sophisticated enough here to understand that the offer is not guaranteed to be signed by anyone. But I would say an offer sheet is almost guaranteed to be signed....if it is offered. The reason being is that it is exactly as you said, a negotiated agreement and both the offering team and the player would have talked extensively prior to the offer. I don’t believe for a second that players would get an offer sheet from a team out of the blue or after very limited discussions. They likely only get one when the talks with their current club are going nowhere and they’ve had very good talks with another team.

 

[MinJaBen]

All that said, today on the NHL’s Off The Rush show, one of their regulars believes Laine is going to test the market and said there is talk that he doesn’t want to be in Winnipeg. If that is true, I would think we’d have a decent shot of landing him given the growing Finnish connection we have, the cap room, and our perceived chances to compete.

 

[NotOpie]

Kapanen
Karlsson
Conner
Vrana

That's my list....and I'd still rather negotiate w/Toronto and Vegas in lieu of sending the offer sheet. I think you could ultimately get Kapanen for picks/prospects. Ditto for Karlsson, but his contract demands are going to be greater. Conner's the most interesting because, I believe Winnipeg has more interest in signing him long term than they do Laine after the latter's weak performance this season. Vrana is just in there because the Caps are in a bit of cap trouble and I like his game/speed. I think he'd be a good fit here.

In the end, we may, once again, feel that our farm team has the scorer we need (in addition to Necas).

 

[TheBigKahuna]

Sergei Fedorov.

 

[Ole Gil]

So many stars align with Kapanen...His dad played here with the Head coach. He spent some of his youth here. The team is littered with Finns his age. On top of that, he fills a need, his cost should be about right, and the team he plays for has incentive to move him.

I don't know if it's going to happen, or if management is even interested, but from where we're sitting, it seems like a pretty good possibility. Whether it's RFA or just a trade, I don't think anyone would be surprised if he's suiting up here next year.

 

[Lempo]

I totally agree that an offer sheet is a contract between a team and a player just like a UFA contract. The important difference is that the RFA contract can be voided by the current team. That is a big contractual difference.

Absolutely not. Once the RFA signs the Offer Sheet, he's signed on the terms of the SPC that got agreed on it. The only* thing his old team has a say on from then on is if he's signed to them or the new team.

(* there's some points on no-trade clauses etc., but the principal terms of duration and money are locked)

 

[Lempo]

All that said, today on the NHL’s Off The Rush show, one of their regulars believes Laine is going to test the market and said there is talk that he doesn’t want to be in Winnipeg. If that is true, I would think we’d have a decent shot of landing him given the growing Finnish connection we have, the cap room, and our perceived chances to compete.

This is extremely hard to believe. BUT, there is a guy posting on HF with supposed Tappara connections claiming something akin to that "every thing agreed upon" failed to happen due to Jets deciding so, and that Laine's camp is not at all happy about that. He... could be argued to not have been put in position to succeed when he got tied into Little for a long time.

Whether it's here or there, you really can't short change Laine on this spring's numbers when after his two first seasons he was only after Ovechkin in goals during that period. November 2018: three NHL hat tricks in three different countries. His agent does get his percentage on the results, you know.

Like, if we ****ing think that some GM is going to offer something crazy to Ferland...!

 

[emptyNedder]

Absolutely not. Once the RFA signs the Offer Sheet, he's signed on the terms of the SPC that got agreed on it. The only* thing his old team has a say on from then on is if he's signed to them or the new team.

(* there's some points on no-trade clauses etc., but the principal terms of duration and money are locked)

True about the terms--but because it involves two new parties the prior contract is voided. The new contract may be required to have the same term by the league, but it is a separate contract. This is both a legal and philosophical point. Legally the RFA is not a "free agent" because he is compelled to accept the matching offer. Philosophically the RFA's freedom is derivative and not pure.

 

[Lempo]

True about the terms--but because it involves two new parties the prior contract is voided. The new contract may be required to have the same term by the league, but it is a separate contract. This is both a legal and philosophical point. Legally the RFA is not a "free agent" because he is compelled to accept the matching offer. Philosophically the RFA's freedom is derivative and not pure.

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[Lempo]

True about the terms--but because it involves two new parties the prior contract is voided. The new contract may be required to have the same term by the league, but it is a separate contract. This is both a legal and philosophical point. Legally the RFA is not a "free agent" because he is compelled to accept the matching offer. Philosophically the RFA's freedom is derivative and not pure.

Actually... Offer Sheet (document in form of CBA Exhibit 6) is a legal pre-agreement signed by the Player, with two possible automatic legal consequences of which the Player is not only aware but has already previously agreed to when he signed the SPC:

1) if the prior team uses its right to first refusal, the Player enters into a contract with the prior team according to the offered terms, or

2) otherwise, the Player enters into a contract with the new team according to the offered terms.

According to the selection of the Prior Club, by CBA 10.3 (b) or (c), "Restricted Free Agent and the [one or other] Club shall be deemed to have entered into a binding agreement, which they shall promptly formalize in an SPC".

Even if the SPC between the Prior Club and the Player may contain "such additional terms as may be agreed upon between the Restricted Free Agent and the Prior Club", and weaselly be described as a 'separate' contract, legally and effectively they have been in a binding agreement from the moment the Prior Club elected to use its right of first refusal.

Restricted Free Agent is free to not sign the Offer Sheet, which action without his further legal actions fully known to will lead to a binding agreement, and to this all he has previously signed up for in his SPC. The term "Restricted Free Agency" and the freedom it pertains is within the NHL context legally defined in the CBA with no philosophical wiggle room.

(this setup actually has one very interesting iffy dimension to it, because actually for the Player to be a Restricted Free Agent it means that his SPC has expired, and technically he may or may not be signed up for this with his assumedly expired SPC. Does signing the Offer Sheet revive the portions of the Player's expired SPC where he agrees to be bound by the CBA, at least in the matters related to the RFA status? Or has he already entered into the new contract and is thusly bound by the terms of the automatically ensuing SPC, even if the other contracting party is still a bit open question?)

(obviously it doesn't matter in practice if a Player refused to sign the SPC with his Prior Club claiming that he's not legally bound by the CBA, because all the other NHL teams have a contract with the League according to which they are bound by the CBA, and couldn't touch a player who according to the CBA is within the NHL structure considered to be a defected player)

 

[TheBigKahuna]

When was the last time someone presented an offer sheet in the NHL?

 

[HisIceness]

When was the last time someone presented an offer sheet in the NHL?

I think the Flyers offered one to Shea Weber before the last lockout.

 

[DaveG]

I think the Flyers offered one to Shea Weber before the last lockout.

That's the last one that we know of that was signed at least. I'm sure others have been offered but the player has to sign off on it. It's usually a nuclear option when guys don't have arbitration rights.

 

[MinJaBen]

Laine would fill a big hole. But it would take a big salary to get him and have the Jets take the picks. Would it be better to trade for him?

Canes: Laine
Jets: Necas, Bean, 2019 1st, 2020 1st

Basically gives the Jets four firsts and a guy that could soon fill that 2C spot fairly cheaply for a while. Would they bite if they think an offer sheet is coming? Would the Canes do something like this?

 

[Lempo]

That's the last one that we know of that was signed at least. I'm sure others have been offered but the player has to sign off on it. It's usually a nuclear option when guys don't have arbitration rights.

Well, "offered"... as MinJerkBen explains above, Offer Sheet is the final phase to be done when the RFA and the prospective new team already have agreed on the terms of a SPC.

There have been negotiations, surely, but maybe they end with the player telling his team what he got offered by other team, and they can then match it unofficially without making it a public showdown where someone will look bad and, at worst, be honor-bound to extract vengeance.

 

[Lempo]

Laine would fill a big hole. But it would take a big salary to get him and have the Jets take the picks. Would it be better to trade for him?

Canes: Laine
Jets: Necas, Bean, 2019 1st, 2020 1st

Basically gives the Jets four firsts and a guy that could soon fill that 2C spot fairly cheaply for a while. Would they bite if they think an offer sheet is coming? Would the Canes do something like this?

We pay waaay too much.

And would still have to sign him, or wait him to get sheeted.

 

[Moosetache]

I have very little interest in Laine.....he doesn't play the same style we do. He plays literally NO defense as well. Skating around with your stick in the air waiting for someone to pass you one on a silver platter after they did all the work is not the RBA recipe for success.

 

[Moosetache]

And I think Kapanen would be amazing here on the forecheck, PK and PP. Thats some speed that RBA can use.

 

[Canes]

My favorite offer sheet was the Flames offer sheeting ROR. Had the Avs not matched, ROR would have had to clear waivers to go to Calgary but Calgary would have still been on the hook for the compensation picks if another team made a claim. What a legendary f*** up that could have been.