Official Tank Thread

[rickthegoon]

I think there is no logical explanation to this start of the season.
I don’t recall a Habs team being. This deflated this early in a season.
So much regression by so many different players in the same time span is abnormal.
Have they already all quit on St-Louis this soon ?
Are they all pissed by the fact Hughes did not react to Laine’s injury ?
At his point, I would not be surprised if St-Louis pulled a Mario Tremblay and quit his job at the end of the season.

 

[Naslund]

Buffalo drafted in the top10 in TEN of the last TWELVE drafts.

Their regular season record since 2012 is abysmal. I can't believe people argue we need to lose even more than they did.

View attachment 928817


What shortcuts did they take that ruined their tank since 2012??

Oh I see, you conveniently ignore 2012-2016 as somehow not a tank or rebuild era.

Easy. They traded their difference makers (Eichel and Reinhart), acquired the wrong players to complement them, and generally speaking, got impatient with their rebuild. They could have been Florida.

 

[ReHabs]

Easy. They traded their difference makers (Eichel and Reinhart),

Eichel was drafted in 2015 and traded after the 2021 season. The Sabres drafted top10 every single year of this span, three years before this span, and even in the draft after.

acquired the wrong players to complement them,

This is the risk with any move, rebuild or regular build

and generally speaking, got impatient with their rebuild. They could have been Florida.

It's been over a decade of losing and losing for heaven's sake.

That's not enough??

What is this even meant to be? I thought it was professional sports and athletes entertaining fans.

 

[Team_Spirit]

Since 2016, Buffalo has drafted top 5 once. You tank and acquire difference-makers in successive years, or you become Buffalo, Ottawa or Detroit, where you half-ass your rebuilt and get out of it too early.

I agree but Buffalo did pick high and often they just puked over themselves in the process, like Smarty would say.

Buffalo Sabres Draft History at hockeydb.com

 

[Naslund]

Eichel was drafted in 2015 and traded after the 2021 season. The Sabres drafted top10 every single year of this span, three years before this span, and even in the draft after.

This is the risk with any move, rebuild or regular build

It's been over a decade of losing and losing for heaven's sake.

That's not enough??

What is this even meant to be? I thought it was professional sports and athletes entertaining fans.

To a tankophile, there cannot be any thing but more tanking. Losing above all else, for as long as it takes. If you make any mistakes and acquire the wrong player? Just lose for another five years more. Lose until you win.

I don't think anybody wants to tank forever, certainly not me. However, some fans are just more patient than others. Demidov IMO is the only true difference maker that we have in our organization. We need more than one. The rest of them are mostly players that will eventually be above-average players in this league (Lane, Slaf, Rein, Hage), but it will take many, many years. Then we have Cole, Nick and Guhle, who are about average players in the NHL (or slightly above), but the best we've got, so we overvalue them.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I don't think anybody wants to tank forever, certainly not me. However, some fans are just more patient than others. Demidov IMO is the only true difference maker that we have in our organization. We need more than one. The rest of them are mostly players that will eventually be above-average players in this league (Lane, Slaf, Rein, Hage), but it will take many, many years. Then we have Cole, Nick and Guhle, which are about average players in the NHL (or slightly above), but the best we've got, so we overvalue them.

I disagree about Hutson. He's a future top pairing D, if not 1st D. Very few 20 year old dmen are as good as he is with barely 15 pro games in. He naturally needs to gain experience before we see the full breath of his impact.

 

[Naslund]

I disagree about Hutson. He's a future top pairing D, if not 1st D. Very few 20 year old dmen are as good as he is with barely 15 pro games in. He naturally needs to gain experience before we see the full breath of his impact.

Lane is amazing, the most gifted player on our team in terms of IQ. However, he will always have some important limitations due to his size. These limitations cannot be improved on unfortunately. He will become much better obviously, and learn to compensate as best as he can.

 

[Harry Kakalovich]

I'm starting to think the Habs may not make the playoffs this year...

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Number 7 is pretty much the Habs trying to hit anyone

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Lane is amazing, the most gifted player on our team in terms of IQ. However, he will always have some important limitations due to his size. These limitations cannot be improved on unfortunately. He will become much better obviously, and learn to compensate as best as he can.

Hughes and Fox also have the same limitation, doesn't stop them from being #1dmen. Also, Lane is surprisingly strong for his size. We've seen him square and hold bigger players on the board like he did last night in the 3rd.

 

[CHwest]

It doesn't work well if you damage the existing young players by building a losing culture in a pressure packed environment like Montreal

The only reason it is pressure packed is because of impatient fans and media. A few of you see them every morning brushing your teeth.

 

[Tyson]

The only reason it is pressure packed is because of impatient fans and media. A few of you see them every morning brushing your teeth.

Yeah ok...we chat on this site to have fun and talk about the Habs and that makes it pressure packed...get a grip

 

[Naslund]

Hughes and Fox also have the same limitation, doesn't stop them from being #1dmen. Also, Lane is surprisingly strong for his size. We've seen him square and hold bigger players on the board like he did last night in the 3rd.

Lane will be a spectacular player that will produce tons of points for us, probably sooner rather than later. However, like Fox and Hughes, I think he will be more important in bringing us to the playoffs, than getting us through them, where physicality becomes much more of a factor. Quinn is also one of the best skaters in this league. Lane is shifty, but not Quinn in terms of overall skating abilities.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

It doesn't work well if you damage the existing young players by building a losing culture in a pressure packed environment like Montreal

There's no such thing as a losing culture.

There is such a thing as a winning culture, but it can't be instituted until you have enough talent to actually win. Talent defines winning first and foremost. Confidence rises when accomplishments are attained. Accomplishments happen only when there is enough talent to accomplish them. For your most important players, your would-be leaders, the fire to succeed doesn't come from others. It should come from them. If in the future, your key players do not have that fire, they are the wrong players. Nothing to do with a losing culture. Losing is driven by a lack of overall talent.

 

[crosbyshow]

Hughes and Fox also have the same limitation, doesn't stop them from being #1dmen. Also, Lane is surprisingly strong for his size. We've seen him square and hold bigger players on the board like he did last night in the 3rd.

Exactly.

His size is not an issue at all cause he is very strong on his legs.

In fact so far this year he uses his weight a lot better than Slaf..can you imagine..

A battle between those 2 in the corner and I would not bet on Slaf.

Pound for pound Hutson is stronger cause of his IQ and his puck protection technique.

Now ..he is 162 pounds and look at him...imagine him at around 175 in a couple of years..

Again this notion of 6.0 and 200...for a hockey player is a total bs.

Half of the best players in the world are not that and they deliver in the playoffs as well

 

[Naslund]

Yeah ok...we chat on this site to have fun and talk about the Habs and that makes it pressure packed...get a grip

You think this team's HFBoards site, the most active on HFBoards, is not a reflection of the pressure, from the fans, on our team? Of course, the media is fanning the flames to get clicks (their primary objective, not the well-being of the team), but we are as much responsible for being sucked into it, and not logically and patiently waiting for the plan laid out by management to unfold.

 

[ReHabs]

There's no such thing as a losing culture.

There is such a thing as a winning culture, but it can't be instituted until you have enough talent to actually win. Talent defines winning first and foremost. Confidence rises when accomplishments are attained. Accomplishments happen only when there is enough talent to accomplish them. For your most important players, your would-be leaders, the fire to succeed doesn't come from others. It should come from them. If in the future, your key players do not have that fire, they are the wrong players. Nothing to do with a losing culture. Losing is driven by a lack of overall talent.

Hmm, so is "the fire to succeed" a distinct element from "talent"? Trying to keep up with the yarns.

 

[Lshap]

That batch of players you're talking about is not high grade. Aside from our recent draftees (Slaf and Lane) and our three previous gems (CC NS and KG), the rest is just a collection of hopefuls. You and others are banking waaaay too much on the hopefuls. The progress you're looking for is based on overvaluing these hopefuls. There's really not enough with the 5 players I mentioned to have any sort of consequential progress. I'd argue that we saw the peak of that progress last year and going higher than that required prime additions, not natural growth.

Dach was considered a key part of the rebuild. It would be a blow if he never regains his mojo. Montembeault looked like an upper tier goalie. It would be a blow if he can't become at least a solid 1B. It would be a blow if Slaf and Guhle stagnate or regress. It would be a disappointment if Suzuki and Caufield have reached their peak. Whoever our key guys are, they can't copy-paste last season. They need to progress.

But it doesn't even matter what you and I think of each player. As a whole, this group of mostly young players went from 55 pts. to 68 to 76. Why would we expect them to be worse than last year?? Shouldn't one of the youngest rosters in the NHL improve with experience... even marginally?

You might be right, maybe some of us are overvaluing a bunch of secondary players. What worries me is that others are doing the exact same thing with our prospects – overvaluing a bunch of picks who will turn out to be no better than secondary players.

There's a pair of arguments made here

1) Time is needed... to develop the young players in hand (a quicker view of a rebuild)
2) Time is needed... to churn through and replenish the roster and prospect pool (a longer view of a rebuild)

It could be a bit of a motte & bailey trick where someone says they're happy to do one but then insist that they meant the other.

And this goes both ways: if you wanted the latter style (longer) rebuild, you should've necessarily been bearish on the cutting corners style moves that got in the way of tanking even harder: retaining Monty, acquiring Newhook, retaining Matheson, and possibly even the Dach acquisition. All of these moves get in the way of a more plentiful rebuild harvest.

If you wanted the shorter style rebuild, you should've necessarily been bearish on the prospect of a fourth straight tank year and one with severe regression. As discussed yesterday with @Schooner Guy, we want to give Demidov a softer landing than a trainwreck with bad morale and low impetus. What happened to the good vibes and winning culture?

I don't know where I stand on it to be perfectly honest. I was an anti-tanker and thought we should move quickly to get out of the pits because I'm most afraid of Buffalo-syndrome... picking up Demidov proved me wrong, made me feel we were on the right path with three straight years of improved pt%... Not sure what to think today.

I'm in the same boat. I'm psyched about Demidov and about Hutson's development. I'll be thrilled if we get a great pick in 2025. But I keep circling back to the question: What kind of a team will these kids be joining? Our best players can't always be our future ones.

 

[StCaufield]

They’ll win 8 in a row now

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Lane will be a spectacular player that will produce tons of points for us, probably sooner rather than later. However, like Fox and Hughes, I think he will be more important in bringing us to the playoffs, than getting us through them, where physicality becomes much more of a factor. Quinn is also one of the best skaters in this league. Lane is shifty, but not Quinn in terms of overall skating abilities.

I disagree. The kind of fire he has, that sort of relentlessness, I've only seen in a handful of players across all sports. His IQ and compete will probably make him more formidable in the playoffs. Compete is more important than size in the playoffs and Lane is by far the most competitive player we drafted in half a century.

 

[McGuires Corndog]

I disagree. The kind of fire he has, that sort of relentlessness, I've only seen in a handful of players across all sports. His IQ and compete will probably make him more formidable in the playoffs. Compete is more important than size in the playoffs and Lane is by far the most competitive player we drafted in half a century.

This.

Lane has that same fire in his belly that Subban had.

 

[Naslund]

I disagree. The kind of fire he has, that sort of relentlessness, I've only seen in a handful of players across all sports. His IQ and compete will probably make him more formidable in the playoffs. Compete is more important than size in the playoffs and Lane is by far the most competitive player we drafted in half a century.

I will be rooting for you to be right on this one!

 

[HabsDood]

I'm starting to think the Habs may not make the playoffs this year...

You're bursting my buble here..

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

This.

Lane has that same fire in his belly that Subban had.

More than Subban imo. He is relentless. As I said yesterday, it's Jordan-esque and I followed MJ's career from his MVP/DPOY season up to his retirement. Lane is very special.

 

[Erika]

Since 2016, Buffalo has drafted top 5 once. You tank and acquire difference-makers in successive years, or you become Buffalo, Ottawa or Detroit, where you half-ass your rebuilt and get out of it too early.

I wouldn't put Ottawa with the other 2 teams. They look like a legit playoffs team this year and way ahead Buffalo and Detroit. Their top 6 is strong and is currently better than Boston or NY Islanders, let alone Buffalo and Detroit. I see Ottawa finishing 6th or 7t in the east. If they can continue like that it will be a successful rebuild. They already have all the ingredients.

#1center = Stutzle, check
1st line winger = Tkachuk, check
#1 defenceman = Sanderson, check
#1 Goaltender = Ullmark, check
Strong top 6 forward, check