Official Tank Thread

[Hannibal]

This thread feels like home

 

[Tyson]

A monumental mistake is not surrounding these young players with competent Veterans.

 

[Naslund]

A monumental mistake is not surrounding these young players with competent Veterans.

Surrounding them with better veterans leads to drafting 10-15 instead of top 5, and less playing time for the young guys. Pain is the way forward.

 

[Tyson]

Surrounding them with better veterans leads to drafting 10-15 instead of top 5, and less playing time for the young guys. Pain is the way forward.

It doesn't work well if you damage the existing young players by building a losing culture in a pressure packed environment like Montreal

 

[ReHabs]

We suck until further notice. It was the same for Florida.

Florida has one of the most underrated coaches in the league and the best GM in the league (+ externalities in its favour).

We have one of the most overrated coaches in the league and Hughes' ability to make a positive impact on the roster is TBD until further notice (+ negative externalities against us).
I wouldn't try to emulate the Florida model... we need a more proactive GM who trades and wheels and deals.

Before the on-ice product is even evaluated, it all starts with accountability and standards and expectations:
Has the GM put together a roster that is worthy of playing serious hockey?
Has the coaching staff done their part to prepare the players tactically and on special teams?
Has the physio staff done their part to keep the players in top condition?
Has the development/hockeyops staff done their part to ensure continuous growth for the players?
etc.

I think Hughes got it wrong with the defense but other decisions would've involved a tradeoff re: cost vs reward/upside. It's often repeated we don't have the asset base to go big game hunting or shopping, spending to acquire another 2nd line forward and have it only fall on its face would've really burned us too. So I can forgive them for standing pat and taking a swing on Patrik Laine. I would've liked a better bottom6... but again, Armia looked good last year and Dvorak was out injured a lot... It's hard to plan around injury prone players on chunky cap hits.

 

[WeThreeKings]

A monumental mistake is not surrounding these young players with competent Veterans.

Not much they can do unless we wanted to bleed picks to dump Dvorak Armia etc with term.

The veterans that are here are supposed to lead better than they have but Dvorak checked out, Armia typically detached and Matheson wants to play like a rookie.

This off season they can address, they'll have space. But it was Laine and a 2nd or a couple FA vets with UFA term and prices. I prefer the Laine gamble.

 

[ReHabs]

Surrounding them with better veterans leads to drafting 10-15 instead of top 5, and less playing time for the young guys. Pain is the way forward.

Buffalo is a model franchise, right?

 

[BergevinBurner]

Us, Philly and Detroit are all likely to be at the bottom of the league for a while. Between those 3 rebuilding teams there haven't been any high quality centers drafted yet.

But then you look around us at the other teams and Chicago got Bedard, Ottawa got Stutzle, San Jose got Celebrini, Anaheim got Carlsson, Columbus got Fantilli, Utah got Cooley, etc...

We're not moving out of this rebuild until we draft a guy that can challenge Suzuki for his spot.

 

[Lshap]

The players from our first rebuild draft are 20 years old. It was always gonna take time. It's not the Oilers, or Sens, or whoever's route, but the simple reality of an asset base that got obliterated by losing arguably its three most important players (SW, CP, PD) in a moment where the roster wasn't all that great to start with. Filling back that asset base takes time.

I agree, a rebuild takes time, but 'time' is only an asset if players are using it to develop & make progress. By itself, time does nothing, unless something actually happens. So far this season, our roster looks like Quebec's bridges – time marches on, the same problems persist, and nothing's happening.

Most of our young players have two/three seasons under their belt – still very young, but two/three years is enough time to show some progress... even small incremental steps. If this turns into another tank season, it means our core has made no progress from last year. If the Habs finish at the bottom for the fourth consecutive season, how has 'taking time' benefitted us?

We can celebrate the possibility of another top pick in 2025, but we need to ask ourselves what kind of team will that kid be joining. Will he and Demidov join a young team that's learning how to win, or will they join a young team that can't put it together?

Time's ticking. That doesn't mean we stop being patient. It means rebuilding requires both patience and progress. We can't have one without the other.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

I agree, a rebuild takes time, but 'time' is only an asset if players are using it to develop & make progress. By itself, time does nothing, unless something actually happens. So far this season, our roster looks like Quebec's bridges – time marches on, the same problems persist, and nothing's happening.

Most of our young players have two/three seasons under their belt – still very young, but two/three years is enough time to show some progress... even small incremental steps. If this turns into another tank season, it means our core has made no progress from last year. If the Habs finish at the bottom for the fourth consecutive season, how has 'taking time' benefitted us?

We can celebrate the possibility of another top pick in 2025, but we need to ask ourselves what kind of team will that kid be joining. Will he and Demidov join a young team that's learning how to win, or will they join a young team that can't put it together?

Time's ticking. That doesn't mean we stop being patient. It means rebuilding requires both patience and progress. We can't have one without the other.

That batch of players you're talking about is not high grade. Aside from our recent draftees (Slaf and Lane) and our three previous gems (CC NS and KG), the rest is just a collection of hopefuls. You and others are banking waaaay too much on the hopefuls. The progress you're looking for is based on overvaluing these hopefuls. There's really not enough with the 5 players I mentioned to have any sort of consequential progress. I'd argue that we saw the peak of that progress last year and going higher than that required prime additions, not natural growth.

 

[ReHabs]

I agree, a rebuild takes time, but 'time' is only an asset if players are using it to develop & make progress. By itself, time does nothing, unless something actually happens. So far this season, our roster looks like Quebec's bridges – time marches on, the same problems persist, and nothing's happening.

Most of our young players have two/three seasons under their belt – still very young, but two/three years is enough time to show some progress... even small incremental steps. If this turns into another tank season, it means our core has made no progress from last year. If the Habs finish at the bottom for the fourth consecutive season, how has 'taking time' benefitted us?

We can celebrate the possibility of another top pick in 2025, but we need to ask ourselves what kind of team will that kid be joining. Will he and Demidov join a young team that's learning how to win, or will they join a young team that can't put it together?

Time's ticking. That doesn't mean we stop being patient. It means rebuilding requires both patience and progress. We can't have one without the other.

There's a pair of arguments made here

1) Time is needed... to develop the young players in hand (a quicker view of a rebuild)
2) Time is needed... to churn through and replenish the roster and prospect pool (a longer view of a rebuild)

It could be a bit of a motte & bailey trick where someone says they're happy to do one but then insist that they meant the other.

And this goes both ways: if you wanted the latter style (longer) rebuild, you should've necessarily been bearish on the cutting corners style moves that got in the way of tanking even harder: retaining Monty, acquiring Newhook, retaining Matheson, and possibly even the Dach acquisition. All of these moves get in the way of a more plentiful rebuild harvest.

If you wanted the shorter style rebuild, you should've necessarily been bearish on the prospect of a fourth straight tank year and one with severe regression. As discussed yesterday with @Schooner Guy, we want to give Demidov a softer landing than a trainwreck with bad morale and low impetus. What happened to the good vibes and winning culture?

I don't know where I stand on it to be perfectly honest. I was an anti-tanker and thought we should move quickly to get out of the pits because I'm most afraid of Buffalo-syndrome... picking up Demidov proved me wrong, made me feel we were on the right path with three straight years of improved pt%... Not sure what to think today.

 

[Naslund]

Since 2016, Buffalo has drafted top 5 once. You tank and acquire difference-makers in successive years, or you become Buffalo, Ottawa or Detroit, where you half-ass your rebuilt and get out of it too early.

 

[ReHabs]

Since 2016, Buffalo has drafted top 5 once. You tank and acquire difference-makers in successive years, or you become Buffalo, Ottawa or Detroit, where you half-ass your rebuilt and get out of it too early.

You think Buffalo didn't tank hard enough?

 

[Naslund]

You think Buffalo didn't tank hard enough?

No, they tried to get out early. But I made a mistake, they drafted top 5 twice, not once.

 

[SwiftyHab]

So this thread must mean "we not in da mix" then I guess.

it’s official that we’re in the mix for last place. Thats the only thing we’re in the mix for

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Since 2016, Buffalo has drafted top 5 once. You tank and acquire difference-makers in successive years, or you become Buffalo, Ottawa or Detroit, where you half-ass your rebuilt and get out of it too early.

Exactly

 

[ReHabs]

No, they tried to get out early. But I made a mistake, they drafted top 5 twice, not once.

In your opinion, what did they do to not tank hard enough? What was their mistake?

 

[BergevinBurner]

Since 2016, Buffalo has drafted top 5 once. You tank and acquire difference-makers in successive years, or you become Buffalo, Ottawa or Detroit, where you half-ass your rebuilt and get out of it too early.

They picked 1st overall in 2018 and 2021.

 

[Ezpz]

They picked 1st overall in 2018 and 2021.

Dmen don't count.

 

[SwiftyHab]

Since 2016, Buffalo has drafted top 5 once. You tank and acquire difference-makers in successive years, or you become Buffalo, Ottawa or Detroit, where you half-ass your rebuilt and never get out of it too early.

 

[NotProkofievian]

Florida has one of the most underrated coaches in the league and the best GM in the league (+ externalities in its favour).

We have one of the most overrated coaches in the league and Hughes' ability to make a positive impact on the roster is TBD until further notice (+ negative externalities against us).
I wouldn't try to emulate the Florida model... we need a more proactive GM who trades and wheels and deals.

Before the on-ice product is even evaluated, it all starts with accountability and standards and expectations:
Has the GM put together a roster that is worthy of playing serious hockey?
Has the coaching staff done their part to prepare the players tactically and on special teams?
Has the physio staff done their part to keep the players in top condition?
Has the development/hockeyops staff done their part to ensure continuous growth for the players?
etc.

I think Hughes got it wrong with the defense but other decisions would've involved a tradeoff re: cost vs reward/upside. It's often repeated we don't have the asset base to go big game hunting or shopping, spending to acquire another 2nd line forward and have it only fall on its face would've really burned us too. So I can forgive them for standing pat and taking a swing on Patrik Laine. I would've liked a better bottom6... but again, Armia looked good last year and Dvorak was out injured a lot... It's hard to plan around injury prone players on chunky cap hits.

It starts with an embarrassment of riches. We currently have no such embarrassment, just the normal kind of embarrassment.

 

[SwiftyHab]

Here’s the formula for this year:
1-lose a game with hardly any effort or structure
2-Have MSL lie to us about how great they played
3-Tank harder to the bottom of the league
4-Rinse and repeat

 

[Naslund]

In your opinion, what did they do to not tank hard enough? What was their mistake?

You need consecutive years of top 5 picks, making the right picks, so that you build a nucleus of difference makers in the same age-group, and then you build around them through trades (using your draft capital), acquiring the right players (M. Tkachuk, not J. Skinner), and a few of your complementary draftees become contributors as well.

 

[General Fanager]

Im not sure I can go through this again this year. I think I might break up with them......

 

[ReHabs]

Buffalo drafted in the top10 in TEN of the last TWELVE drafts.

Their regular season record since 2012 is abysmal. I can't believe people argue we need to lose even more than they did.

You need consecutive years of top 5 picks, making the right picks, so that you build a nucleus of difference makers in the same age-group, and then you build around them through trades (using your draft capital), acquiring the right players (M. Tkachuk, not J. Skinner), and a few of your complementary draftees become contributors as well.

What shortcuts did they take that ruined their tank since 2012??

Oh I see, you conveniently ignore 2012-2016 as somehow not a tank or rebuild era.