Official New Year Training Camp thread

[PromisedLand]

imo keefe will continue to play the hell out of the stars up top.

but even if he does rely on the 3rd line more than usual, at least this time he has a fast defenisvely sound positive possession 3rd line to rely on, unlike Randy's AHL 3rd lines.

carlyle era hockey still gives me nightmares (2012-2013 collapse was the worst feeling i ever had as a fan)

 

[PromisedLand]

If Thornton can help Matthews unlock that play-making side, it might be one of the best signings we've ever had.

Matthews is very underrated playmaker; he is actually pretty good at it; he fed many awesome passes to both marner and hyman last season; they just couldn't convert; he was also feeding great passes to hyman and nylnader when he first started; hyman at that time was literally "stone hands" and nylander was and still seems to look like graduate from Phaneuf's school of shooting "high and wide" ; hopefully he can improve this season

 

[zeke]

carlyle era hockey still gives me nightmares (2012-2013 collapse was the worst feeling i ever had as a fan)

what's sadder to see imo was that even with a much better roster, Babcock went more and more towards the Carlyle stretch pass / dump in systems with each further year in charge despite having more skill each year, almost like he was sticking it to his GM.

 

[PromisedLand]

Thornton is big, but he’s not a “get in on the forecheck first” kind of guy, he just doesn’t have the speed. I guess that’s why you try things in camp. My guess is Hyman ends up back in the top 6 eventually.

in the playoffs when neutral zone gets clogged there is not other way but to dump and chase; Thorton would not be that guy IMO; don't expect marner/nylander to forecheck; matthews alone cannot do everything

wouldn't be surprised if every canadian team played trap against us even in the regular season because of our offense

 

[Muston Atthews]

Give this guy the puck

 

[Twine Tickler]

Thornton is big, but he’s not a “get in on the forecheck first” kind of guy, he just doesn’t have the speed. I guess that’s why you try things in camp. My guess is Hyman ends up back in the top 6 eventually.

ya he definitely is not, but neither are matthews and marner. that said, the hyman/matthews/marner line very rarely played a true "dump and chase" style. largely gained the zone by matts or marner single handedly gaining the blue. Hyman was great at winning 1 on 1 battles. thats what made him a staple on that line. but his value is literally anywhere in the lineup. far more versatile of a player. Jumbo is less, i think his playmaking ability needs to be paired with finishers and players that see the game the way he does. that line has always been most successful when they possess the puck. the dump and chase style really only works if every player forechecks like hyman. F1 needs to be supported by a strong F2, and thats just not what was happening last year when that line would "dump and chase". i think the thornton/matthews/marner line will be all about gaining the zone in transition and then establishing a strong cycle. all 3 players are very good in tight, and have a great ability to extend the play with their IQ and vision. i'm optimistic

 

[PromisedLand]

what's sadder to see imo was that even with a much better roster, Babcock went more and more towards the Carlyle stretch pass / dump in systems with each further year in charge despite having more skill each year, almost like he was sticking it to his GM.

nah i just see it the other way; for the systems he had no other option; opposition was playing trap more often than not clogging neutral zone; it was not easy to gain zone entries

only prblem i had with babcock in the playoffs was when he kept deploying marleau with matthews on the bench for game 7 against boston; that pissed me off

in the regular season babcock was okay but he was very slow in reacting to change; he often waited till the last 10 mins of the 3rd period to change things up when we were trailing and that used to annoy me; other than that i didnt have much problem with babcock

last season's failure is as much on dubas as babcock; i would say it is more on dubas than babcock. but dubas did change his moronic ideas for this season so i will give him a pass (just a small one though)

 

[stickty111]

Give this guy the puck

I would be really happy if he stayed at the level he was last season. If there is another level which I think there is, watch out.

Also his flow changes every year lol

 

[Wafflewhipper]

really? what kind of physicality are we expecting from Marner, Nylander, Tavares, etc....

Matthews can go though; he was a beast against CBJ hitting anything that moved when he was pissed

Oh I don’t know. Keefer wants it. I guess it means no more stick checks and fly by’s Promisland.

 

[Buds17]

I think people are throwing Dermott under the bus based on a single training camp lineup. I personally don't think he's on the outside looking in.

You could be right. Just a guess on my part. Fine enough to have a difference of opinion. A back-to-back against Ottawa follows the season opener against Montreal. Seems like a good opportunity for some lineup shuffling, whatever that may look like.

 

[PromisedLand]

Oh I don’t know. Keefer wants it. I guess it means no more stick checks and fly by’s Promisland.

Does keefe know that nylander plays on this team?

 

[Wafflewhipper]

Does keefe know that nylander plays on this team?

He is expecting it from everyone. He noticed him 31 times last year but then he has a knack of hiding in the weeds. This is the reason Gauthier is gone. Keefer won’t put up with it from a fringe player but his scorers should play in the way at least and finish a check. Willy tracks puck without possession much better than 2 short years ago. He’s not going to be physical maybe he will retract his statement today ha

 

[zeke]

nah i just see it the other way; for the systems he had no other option; opposition was playing trap more often than not clogging neutral zone; it was not easy to gain zone entries

only prblem i had with babcock in the playoffs was when he kept deploying marleau with matthews on the bench for game 7 against boston; that pissed me off

in the regular season babcock was okay but he was very slow in reacting to change; he often waited till the last 10 mins of the 3rd period to change things up when we were trailing and that used to annoy me; other than that i didnt have much problem with babcock

last season's failure is as much on dubas as babcock; i would say it is more on dubas than babcock. but dubas did change his moronic ideas for this season so i will give him a pass (just a small one though)

imo that's crazy talk, and we saw the instant turnaround when the new coach implemented new systems.

The stretch pass / dump in systems is never a great strategy, but an even worse strategy for this particular roster.

And dubas hasn't changed any of his ideas.

But it will be funny to see everyone, instead of noting that this year's success will merely be a continuation of the success they had last year under Keefe, instead give credit to the league minimum signings of Thornton, Simmonds, Vesey, Bogosian - even though nobody even wanted these players in the first place.

 

[PromisedLand]

Isn't Palat a puck retrieval kind of guy? I could be wrong, but relative to Marner/Thornton/Matthews, Palat would be the puck retriever I would think.

point, kucherov both are puck hounds and play the boards really well and can also play body

 

[zeke]

ya he definitely is not, but neither are matthews and marner. that said, the hyman/matthews/marner line very rarely played a true "dump and chase" style. largely gained the zone by matts or marner single handedly gaining the blue. Hyman was great at winning 1 on 1 battles. thats what made him a staple on that line. but his value is literally anywhere in the lineup. far more versatile of a player. Jumbo is less, i think his playmaking ability needs to be paired with finishers and players that see the game the way he does. that line has always been most successful when they possess the puck. the dump and chase style really only works if every player forechecks like hyman. F1 needs to be supported by a strong F2, and thats just not what was happening last year when that line would "dump and chase". i think the thornton/matthews/marner line will be all about gaining the zone in transition and then establishing a strong cycle. all 3 players are very good in tight, and have a great ability to extend the play with their IQ and vision. i'm optimistic

slow or not, Thornton is a monster on the boards, as is Matthews.

 

[PromisedLand]

He is expecting it from everyone. He noticed him 31 times last year but then he has a knack of hiding in the weeds. This the reason Gauthier is gone. Keefer won’t put up with it from a fringe player but his scorers should play in the way at least and finish a check

dude there is no way nylander will every play physical or finish a check; i've been watching him since he started; he doesn't have it in him.

but agreed about the Goat, keefe probably wont put up lack of physicality from players who dont score or play defense really well

 

[PromisedLand]

imo that's crazy talk, and we saw the instant turnaround when the new coach implemented new systems.

The stretch pass / dump in systems is never a great strategy, but an even worse strategy for this particular roster.

And dubas hasn't changed any of his ideas.

But it will be funny to see everyone, instead of noting that this year's success will merely be a continuation of the success they had last year under Keefe, instead give credit to the league minimum signings of Thornton, Simmonds, Vesey, Bogosian - even though nobody even wanted these players in the first place.

Leafs struggled against CBJ significantly in the playoffs because they played trap. Gaining zone entries is not easy when neutral zone is clogged.

 

[Oscar Peterson]

Matthews is very underrated playmaker; he is actually pretty good at it; he fed many awesome passes to both marner and hyman last season; they just couldn't convert; he was also feeding great passes to hyman and nylnader when he first started; hyman at that time was literally "stone hands" and nylander was and still seems to look like graduate from Phaneuf's school of shooting "high and wide" ; hopefully he can improve this season

To be fair I think a big reason Nylander scored so many more goals last season was that he stopped trying to go top corner every shot and focused on shooting lower and just getting it on net.
I agree though, Matthews has racked up some absolutely gorgeous assists in his career, for some reason he's just never had a bunch of secondary assists to lift his totals. Pretty sure his primary assist rate actually ranks very high still.

 

[Wafflewhipper]

fair but i still trust tavares, matthews, heck even spezza and jumbo more than kerfoot to win the defensive zone face ofs and play defense lol

He’s terrible on draws and his zone starts are very lopsided to the offensive zone side.

 

[zeke]

Leafs struggled against CBJ significantly in the playoffs because they played trap. Gaining zone entries is not easy when neutral zone is clogged.

Leafs were clearly the better team in the series, even though Columbus was an elite defensive team in its own right.

 

[stickty111]

imo that's crazy talk, and we saw the instant turnaround when the new coach implemented new systems.

The stretch pass / dump in systems is never a great strategy, but an even worse strategy for this particular roster.

And dubas hasn't changed any of his ideas.

But it will be funny to see everyone, instead of noting that this year's success will merely be a continuation of the success they had last year under Keefe, instead give credit to the league minimum signings of Thornton, Simmonds, Vesey, Bogosian - even though nobody even wanted these players in the first place.

Oh I have been prepared for that scenario for some time. You know it will happen.

 

[stickty111]

Anyone interested, Keefe will be on Overdrive and Tim and Sid today.

I'm curious to see what other defensive ideas Keefe implements. The PK was fantastic under him, and we showed a lot improvement defensively too in the play in. Yes it was Columbas but still. Even befors the plan, we were average defensively which is still nice improvement under any year with Babcock.

 

[kevsh]

Thornton on the first line could be for all sorts of reasons, beyond thinking he'd be a good fit style-wise:

1) Since he was playing in Europe he's closer to being game ready, may as well take advantage of it.
2) A strong personality with the two young forwards they want him to impress upon.
3) If you want Thornton to be a presence in the locker room he has to have a significant role on the team. The young 'uns aren't likely to find the words of a 4th liner as compelling as (See point #2).
4) It's part of an effort to push the prospects and new players who will likely find their way into the bottom 6, if at all. Putting Joe in the top 3, for now, allows Keefe to get more looks on these guys.
5) I was going to put something funny here but it's not that funny.

 

[PromisedLand]

Leafs were clearly the better team in the series, even though Columbus was an elite defensive team in its own right.

we've had this debate before. having higher corsi, or hdcf%, xgf%, etc... doesnt mean "success"

you have defined it as a primary tool for success; more power to you.

You are not going to change my mind and I am not going to change your mind.

2021 needs better discussions and arguments

 

[PromisedLand]

Thornton on the first line could be for all sorts of reasons, beyond thinking he'd be a good fit style-wise:

1) Since he was playing in Europe he's closer to being game ready, may as well take advantage of it.
2) A strong personality with the two young forwards they want him to impress upon.
3) If you want Thornton to be a presence in the locker room he has to have a significant role on the team. The young 'uns aren't likely to find the words of a 4th liner as compelling as (See point #2).
4) It's part of an effort to push the prospects and new players who will likely find their way into the bottom 6, if at all. Putting Joe in the top 3, for now, allows Keefe to get more looks on these guys.
5) I was going to put something funny here but it's not that funny.

What if Jumbo actually scores 4 goals in a game?