Blue Jays Discussion: Off-Season Pt VII: Things keep happening!

[BlueForever75]

Lol no ones displacing Biggio. He's one of the best already and very useful at multiple positions. Guess we found a certain someones burner account

Like I said, I do not want Biggio dealt but you need to understand that we will eventually need to deal from positions of strength to get better at positions of need. Right now the positions of strength the Jays have is in the OF, behind the plate and INF. We have MLB proven OF, proven and young behind the plate along with highly rated prospects, and a young and proven INF at MLB level with many upcoming INF prospects.

Do you trade a Groshans or Martin before Biggio. I think not.

If there is a way to get a player package of Bryant/Hendricks or Gray/Moose or Castillo/Moose and the asking price starts with Biggio. The Jays should entertain the idea and do it. Either of those packages coming back instantly make the Jays the favorite in the AL and closer to teams like the Padres, Dodgers and Braves in the NL.

 

[BlueForever75]

Another power arm added to bullpen

 

[phillipmike]

I liked Phelps when he pitched for us. Helped us land Hatch. Cant go wrong on a 1 year deal, especially on a pen arm.

 

[BlueForever75]

I like Phelps when he pitched for us. Helped us land Hatch. Cant go wrong on a 1 year deal, especially on a pen arm.

Phelps has been a dependable arm out of the pen for some time. He was dominant for the Brewers last season after struggling with the Phillies to start.

But his averages over the years will do the Jays good in the bullpen. 1.75million is a low cost for what he can bring. He has a power arm and misses bats at a great rate. Rosenthal interest is done with this signing. But someone else will be DFA'd. Look for Fisher to be traded or released outright.

 

[Discoverer]

Like I said, I do not want Biggio dealt but you need to understand that we will eventually need to deal from positions of strength to get better at positions of need. Right now the positions of strength the Jays have is in the OF, behind the plate and INF. We have MLB proven OF, proven and young behind the plate along with highly rated prospects, and a young and proven INF at MLB level with many upcoming INF prospects.

Do you trade a Groshans or Martin before Biggio. I think not.

If there is a way to get a player package of Bryant/Hendricks or Gray/Moose or Castillo/Moose and the asking price starts with Biggio. The Jays should entertain the idea and do it. Either of those packages coming back instantly make the Jays the favorite in the AL and closer to teams like the Padres, Dodgers and Braves in the NL.

Or sign Paxton or Odorizzi or Walker or trade for a guy that doesn't cost Biggio or a top prospect.

 

[BlueForever75]

Or sign Paxton or Odorizzi or Walker or trade for a guy that doesn't cost Biggio or a top prospect.

I agree on the SP side. But 3rd upgrade will cost more.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Like I said, I do not want Biggio dealt but you need to understand that we will eventually need to deal from positions of strength to get better at positions of need. Right now the positions of strength the Jays have is in the OF, behind the plate and INF. We have MLB proven OF, proven and young behind the plate along with highly rated prospects, and a young and proven INF at MLB level with many upcoming INF prospects.

Do you trade a Groshans or Martin before Biggio. I think not.

If there is a way to get a player package of Bryant/Hendricks or Gray/Moose or Castillo/Moose and the asking price starts with Biggio. The Jays should entertain the idea and do it. Either of those packages coming back instantly make the Jays the favorite in the AL and closer to teams like the Padres, Dodgers and Braves in the NL.

I mean those 3 deals are not all equal. I would consider moving Biggio as the center piece for Castillo. Not for Hendricks and Bryant. Or Moose and Gray. The other deal that really to me is the only way trading Biggio actually makes sense is as the main piece for Chapman. Other wise if we are talking lesser pieces we dont touch Biggio or Martin/Groshans for Sonny Gray or Hendricks.

 

[Discoverer]

I agree on the SP side. But 3rd upgrade will cost more.

So give Biggio a chance or give Vlad another chance or move Semien there or move Bo there and let Semien move to SS or sign Turner or sign someone like Gonzalez or Franco as a fall-back plan or take on some of Moustakas's contract to get him without giving much of anything up or acquire just Bryant for a secondary prospect...

There are a ton of perfectly reasonable options to address 3B that don't involve trading Biggio.

 

[phillipmike]

Signing of Phelps makes things interesting. Lets assume the Jays go with 8 man pen, currently the rotation and pen is;

Rotation:
Ryu: Not going anywhere
Pearson: Not going anywhere, can be optioned
Ray: Just signed, not going anywhere
Matz: Just traded for, not going anywhere
Roark: MLB contract, will be kept or traded

Bullpen:
Yates: Just signed to be your closer, not going anywhere
Romano: Your best reliever, not going anywhere
Phelps: Just signed, not going anywhere
Dolis: Your 2nd best reliever from last season, presumably not going anywhere
Borucki: Your only lefty in the pen, not going anywhere
Chatwood: Just signed, not going anywhere
Ross Stripling: Your swingman, not going anywhere
8th Spot: Currently with Thornton or Merryweather. Both have options and i assume they start in AAA as starters. Im thinking Liranio ends up in this spot as the 2nd lefty.

So unless we are going with 9 in the pen or someone is hurt and we dont know - the Jays team is pretty much set. So if they hope to add then they have to trade someone and based on their acquisitions pretty much Roark and maybe Dolis is available for trade or Pearson is optioned which i would be surprised to see. I doubt Dolis is moved so we are looking just at Roark if an upgrade in the rotation is made, which is expected.

Basically tells us that we are only adding 1 starter at most (Roark is traded) unless something unexpected happens or we go with a 9 man pen.

 

[howlman]

Trade Roarky for a lefty bat. Sign Odorizzi. And lets roll. Solid team. Not contenders yet, but damn solid

 

[Discoverer]

I don't think Matz in the rotation is close to a guarantee, either. They could add a starter to push Matz to the pen and have both Thornton and Merryweather open the season as starters in AAA.

 

[phillipmike]

I don't think Matz in the rotation is close to a guarantee, either. They could add a starter to push Matz to the pen and have both Thornton and Merryweather open the season as starters in AAA.

Also very likely.

Ryu
Pearson
Ray
New addition
Roark/Matz/Stripling

Perhaps Roark, Matz and Stripling fight for the last rotation spot. Though im not convinced Roark will be happy pitching out of the pen nor would he be effective pitching out of the pen. So if he is on the Jays, i expect him to get a starting spot.

Plus Atkins said they see Matz as a starter and will get an opportunity to start. Its still "early" and Atkins could just be blowing smoke about Matz, but there has to a move or 2.

Id be shocked if Pearson isnt on the opening day roster but i would support a start in AAA or the pen to bring him along slowly. I think a lot of teams will use a 9 man pen to build up their starters slowly after a shortened 2020. So it is very likely all non Ryu and Ray starters will be pitching on 6 days rest instead of 5 - so you can get Roark, Matz and Stripling starts.

 

[phillipmike]

Top 100 MLB prospects for 2021: The best No. 1 since Mike Trout and Bryce Harper

14. Nate Pearson, RHP, Toronto Blue Jays

Age: 24 | Bats: Right | Throws: Right
Tools: Fastball 70/70, Slider 65/70, Curveball 45/50, Changeup 50/55, Command 45/50
Present/Future Value: 45/60

If you want to dream on an ace from this list but would prefer a more heavy metal approach than a graceful orchestral number, Pearson is your guy. He's been up to 101 mph many times, 102 mph before, sitting 95-100 mph in many starts. His mid-80s power slider is hellacious, and he's a deceptively good athlete with enough body control and finesse that, even at 6-foot-6, 245 pounds, he has the ability and has shown an above-average changeup and average command.
In his MLB debut in 2020, he gave glimpses of this complete version of himself but more often would get in destructive patterns of missing by a bit, getting behind, then trying to overthrow, which would snowball on him.

While he may look like a future reliever at first blush, his outlook depends on how well he can dial down and adjust to make things work. Possessing 45-grade command (quality strikes) and 50-grade control (any kind of strike) may be enough to make Pearson a front-line starter, while almost anything more than that could make him an ace.

38. Austin Martin, 2B, Toronto Blue Jays

Age: 21 | Bats: Right | Throws: Right
Future Value: 55

Martin was one of the easier draft prospects to evaluate leading into the 2020 spring as he'd starred for two years for Vanderbilt and Team USA, performing well everywhere with similar tools the whole time. He was a plus to plus-plus contact threat (highest rate of 95+ exit velocities in the SEC) with average raw power that he was learning to get to, deceptively plus speed, and enough defensive ability to play somewhere up the middle, along with third base.

In the limited look scouts got in the 2020 spring, Martin had difficulty making the throw from the left side of the infield and was showing more like average speed. For those without much history, they thought they saw a left fielder without much in-game power, while those with history assumed Martin was hurt in some way. I didn't see Martin (the season was canceled a week before I was set to get my first 2020 look) but had run into a similar thing with Trea Turner in the past, when he looked somewhat hurt and generally out of sorts after torching the ACC for two seasons. Turner slipped to 13th overall in 2014 and Martin only lasted until the 5th pick.

Indications from the alternate site is that Toronto saw the previous version of Martin and that, going forward, they'll have a plus contact, decent power, plus runner sticking long term at second, third or center field (all places he's played capably as an amateur) and getting some shortstop reps as well.

47. Jordan Groshans, 3B, Toronto Blue Jays

Age: 21 | Bats: Right | Throws: Right
Future Value: 50

Groshans was immediately a scout favorite on the showcase circuit because he looked like a 17-year-old version of Josh Donaldson. Donaldson adopted his signature swing in the big leagues, so he definitely didn't look like Groshans did as a teen -- but Groshans tools look like he could one day turn into a Donaldson type.

Groshans is an above-average athlete with solid average speed, plus raw power, plus bat speed, a plus arm and tools to be at least average at third base defensively. He had a foot injury late in 2019 that scuttled what was a solid age-19 performance in low-A. So there's a little more risk than with the recently drafted duo of Veen and Hassell because rival clubs haven't seen Groshans play since May of 2019, while Veen and Hassell both starred against the best of their peers playing with wood bats in the summer after that.

Groshans' tools are for real and it sounds like he's all systems go for 2021, but hitting the ground running early this season will likely also cause him to rise more than other comparably ranked talents.

90. Simeon Woods Richardson, RHP, Toronto Blue Jays

Age: 20 | Bats: Right | Throws: Right
Future Value: 50

Woods Richardson probably isn't a front-line big league starter and, unlike most elite prospects chosen out of high school, isn't particularly physically projectable. Those are reasons he lasted until the second round in 2018.

He was dealt by the Mets in the Marcus Stroman deal during a breakout 2019 season when, like No. 92 Balazovic, he went from low-A to high-A with crisper stuff and elite performance. Woods Richardson is also somewhat limited by not having a clear plus tool, but he has three pitches and command that are all arguably above average, so a No. 3 or 4 starter is a reasonable expectation.

96. Alejandro Kirk, C, Toronto Blue Jays

Age: 22 | Bats: Right | Throws: Right
Future Value: 50

Kirk is a fun prospect to like because he has a unique frame for a catcher and he's a really good hitter. There's long-term worries about how good of a catcher he'll be due to his size and lateral quickness. His big frame helps make him a strong pitch framer and he works well with pitchers, so a move to automatic strike calling in the coming years may also hurt his long-term value. His high contact rate means he'll always find his way into a lineup, but probably with average at-best in-game power.

More than any other player on this list, Kirk is in demand now (the forward-thinking type clubs are especially interested, particularly given Toronto's surplus of good catchers) and projects to have a lot of trade value the next few years, but that may tail off near the end of his six-plus years of team control.

 

[DJB]

Jays have no need for starters...we will beat everyone using the pen lol

 

[AllDay28]

Wander Franco is comparable to Trout and Harper? I know hes a stud (from MLB the Show) but geez.

 

[Hoverhand]

Signing of Phelps makes things interesting. Lets assume the Jays go with 8 man pen, currently the rotation and pen is;

Rotation:
Ryu: Not going anywhere
Pearson: Not going anywhere, can be optioned
Ray: Just signed, not going anywhere
Matz: Just traded for, not going anywhere
Roark: MLB contract, will be kept or traded

Bullpen:
Yates: Just signed to be your closer, not going anywhere
Romano: Your best reliever, not going anywhere
Phelps: Just signed, not going anywhere
Dolis: Your 2nd best reliever from last season, presumably not going anywhere
Borucki: Your only lefty in the pen, not going anywhere
Chatwood: Just signed, not going anywhere
Ross Stripling: Your swingman, not going anywhere
8th Spot: Currently with Thornton or Merryweather. Both have options and i assume they start in AAA as starters. Im thinking Liranio ends up in this spot as the 2nd lefty.

So unless we are going with 9 in the pen or someone is hurt and we dont know - the Jays team is pretty much set. So if they hope to add then they have to trade someone and based on their acquisitions pretty much Roark and maybe Dolis is available for trade or Pearson is optioned which i would be surprised to see. I doubt Dolis is moved so we are looking just at Roark if an upgrade in the rotation is made, which is expected.

Basically tells us that we are only adding 1 starter at most (Roark is traded) unless something unexpected happens or we go with a 9 man pen.

Where is Hatch in this equation?

 

[BlueForever75]

Semien or Biggio will not be the answer at 3B.

Vladdy may be given the chance and I am ok with that, being spelled by Biggio here and there.

But I dont see Biggio as our everyday 3rd basemen. Would prefer an upgrade at 3rd.

As for a starter, we need at least one more. With acquisitions in the pen we have strengthened it considerably to get us through innings 6-9. So we do not need a horse per say, but definitely could use another competent arm.

 

[landy92mack29]

Like I said, I do not want Biggio dealt but you need to understand that we will eventually need to deal from positions of strength to get better at positions of need. Right now the positions of strength the Jays have is in the OF, behind the plate and INF. We have MLB proven OF, proven and young behind the plate along with highly rated prospects, and a young and proven INF at MLB level with many upcoming INF prospects.

Do you trade a Groshans or Martin before Biggio. I think not.

If there is a way to get a player package of Bryant/Hendricks or Gray/Moose or Castillo/Moose and the asking price starts with Biggio. The Jays should entertain the idea and do it. Either of those packages coming back instantly make the Jays the favorite in the AL and closer to teams like the Padres, Dodgers and Braves in the NL.

No, no they shouldn't for those players and I move Groshans in a heartbeat before I move Biggio. Biggio is a proven young talent who can play basically any position while Groshans hasn't played above A ball and has had trouble staying healthy. If they had a normal minors year last year and Groshans played 100+ games while raking you might have something to stand on. I like Groshans as a prospect but he's not a sure fire stud guaranteed to hit.

 

[phillipmike]

Where is Hatch in this equation?

Looks like he is starting in AAA to me.

 

[aingefan]

Was it to make roster space for the waiver claim?

Pretty sure it’s the corresponding move to keep Payamps.
I’d speculate that Fisher and Waguespack are #40 and 39 for the next pair of moves that will occur at some point that I can’t predict.

 

[BlueForever75]

No, no they shouldn't for those players and I move Groshans in a heartbeat before I move Biggio. Biggio is a proven young talent who can play basically any position while Groshans hasn't played above A ball and has had trouble staying healthy. If they had a normal minors year last year and Groshans played 100+ games while raking you might have something to stand on. I like Groshans as a prospect but he's not a sure fire stud guaranteed to hit.

Trading Groshans will be like the Jays mistake of trading Young in years past. This guy has major contributor for many seasons written all over him.

It would be a horrible mistake trading him. He and Martin are our next wave of superstar talent to compliment the younger vets of Bichette, Pearson and Vladdy.

 

[landy92mack29]

Trading Groshans will be like the Jays mistake of trading Young in years past. This guy has major contributor for many seasons written all over him.

It would be a horrible mistake trading him. He and Martin are our next wave of superstar talent to compliment the younger vets of Bichette, Pearson and Vladdy.

So would trading Biggio and I don't want to trade either to be clear. See what you have in the 10+ AAAA arms and if Biggio/Vlad/Semien handle 3B then if you need to address a area do it at the tdl when there'll be more options available

Biggio has played 159 games and has a 4.9 WAR so you'd move a 5 war player over a prospect

 

[trellaine201]

Jays have no need for starters...we will beat everyone using the pen lol

Yep. Highly unlikely any pitcher gets the confidence to pitch more than 4 innings lol

 

[Discoverer]

Trading Groshans will be like the Jays mistake of trading Young in years past. This guy has major contributor for many seasons written all over him.

It would be a horrible mistake trading him. He and Martin are our next wave of superstar talent to compliment the younger vets of Bichette, Pearson and Vladdy.

Fun fact: Michael Young has exactly one season (4.1 fWAR in 2005) better than the 3.8 fWAR Biggio has put up through his first full season in the majors.

So if think they should trade Biggio because you're worried about losing out on the next Michael Young, maybe keep in mind that Biggio is already as good as Michael Young was at his best.

 

[showtime8]

With the signing of Phelps, does the corresponding move need to be done within the same day or 24 hours? How does that work?