Proposal: Nyr-car

[sheriff bart]

One of the biggest assets in the league right now are the expansion draft protection slots. That is always "forgotten" in these ridiculous proposals.

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

and it should
terribad OP


x2


I have been pushing for Pesce, but not such a ridiculous offer

stepan and 3 Ranger 3rds
for
Pesce, Murphy, cap dump Bickell and 2 Cane 2nds and return of ranger 2nd

Equally terrible proposal, just in the other direction.

Disregarding how bad this proposal is for the Rangers, one of the more annoying things about your proposals is how overly complicated they are, usually involving multiple needless pieces. Why would a team give up three 2nds for three 3rds to "balance" a deal, instead of just a 2nd for a 3rd?

 

[bernmeister]

Deal!

I assume this was as to my offer.

you think the other offer is worse than this? Stop trying to sell Step, he is not going anywhere! And in the event that he is moved, it will be for an established stud RHD like Barrie...and I am not thinking that this will happen either.

I will NOT stop trying to anticipate the sale of Stepan, which WILL happen this year. Not a matter of IF, but WHEN.

Apparently he is a favorite of yours and I am sorry for your discomfort, but I did not establish that NMC in his deal, and while 6.5 is not excessive and doable for someone around 15-20ish best in NHL overall Cs, if we can repurpose, and we need to, we do.

While 'coke' for 'pepsi' one level removed, in that a solid RD goes for a solid C has that it is complementary going for it, my deal is better. Gets Pesce at lower $, allows to try out Murphy on the cheap, w/first dibs on extending, and upgrades our picks, which is needed.

IMO our team will better served by this mindset, which Gorton seems to be closer to, than the conventional (lack of) wisdom you are proposing, which may have complementary value limited improvement, but does not address underlying and core concerns.

Also, Pesce is expansion draft exempt, which is HUGE.

Equally terrible proposal, just in the other direction.

Disregarding how bad this proposal is for the Rangers, one of the more annoying things about your proposals is how overly complicated they are, usually involving multiple needless pieces. Why would a team give up three 2nds for three 3rds to "balance" a deal, instead of just a 2nd for a 3rd?

No it isn't equally terrible, as arguably it works for both sides getting something.
I don't consider in this instance multiple needless pieces.
Why should I only extract 1 swap of 1 pick upgrade from Canes, when the established value of Stepan would likely command more? Because you are too lazy to consider more reading? more thinking?

 

[Unsustainable]

Pesce is one hit away from a career ending injury, Staal has survived 2. I dunno guys, seems like Staal has a better longevity since we havent seen Pesce take a career ending type hit yet.

 

[NotOpie]

No it isn't equally terrible, as arguably it works for both sides getting something. I don't consider in this instance multiple needless pieces.
Why should I only extract 1 swap of 1 pick upgrade from Canes, when the established value of Stepan would likely command more? Because you are too lazy to consider more reading? more thinking?

Nice of you to tell us Hurricanes fans what works for us....especially when you are egregiously wrong on multiple points.

Derek Stepan is a nice piece, but he doesn't hold anywhere near the value to us that you seem to think. He's a moderate scoring, moderately sized center who is more likely a 2C on many teams....perhaps even the Canes. He's a low-to-mid- 50 point guy who has trouble winning a faceoff. None of those things scream 1C to me.

Brett Pesce, on the other hand, is a young top 4 RHD on an ELC, is cost controlled, and is expansion draft exempt. In a trade he has much more valuable than that which you ascribe to him. Add to this the fact that he's not on the market and you are describing the perfect scenario where an overpayment would be called for.

Ryan Murphy could have likely been had for the right price at the draft, but that didn't materialize. Now he's been signed specifically as expansion protection. Should he break out, then great, the Canes will have a nice problem to have. Otherwise he's the blueliner that will have played enough NHL games (after this season) to be exposed. Again, there's significant value in that type of asset.

The Hurricanes are a young, rebuilding team in the draft and development stage of their progression. They are not going to trade futures for a questionable present value asset. Just because the Rangers traded a very good prospect and two 2nds for Eric Staal doesn't mean the Canes are going to do any return favors.

Finally, if the Canes trade one of their young and upcoming defensemen it will be as part of a package to get a true #1 center, think Matt Duchene. Stepan just doesn't do it for us....at least in this one fan's opinion.

 

[Brock Anton]

Nice of you to tell us Hurricanes fans what works for us....especially when you are egregiously wrong on multiple points.

Derek Stepan is a nice piece, but he doesn't hold anywhere near the value to us that you seem to think. He's a moderate scoring, moderately sized center who is more likely a 2C on many teams....perhaps even the Canes. He's a low-to-mid- 50 point guy who has trouble winning a faceoff. None of those things scream 1C to me.

Brett Pesce, on the other hand, is a young top 4 RHD on an ELC, is cost controlled, and is expansion draft exempt. In a trade he has much more valuable than that which you ascribe to him. Add to this the fact that he's not on the market and you are describing the perfect scenario where an overpayment would be called for.

Ryan Murphy could have likely been had for the right price at the draft, but that didn't materialize. Now he's been signed specifically as expansion protection. Should he break out, then great, the Canes will have a nice problem to have. Otherwise he's the blueliner that will have played enough NHL games (after this season) to be exposed. Again, there's significant value in that type of asset.

The Hurricanes are a young, rebuilding team in the draft and development stage of their progression. They are not going to trade futures for a questionable present value asset. Just because the Rangers traded a very good prospect and two 2nds for Eric Staal doesn't mean the Canes are going to do any return favors.

Finally, if the Canes trade one of their young and upcoming defensemen it will be as part of a package to get a true #1 center, think Matt Duchene. Stepan just doesn't do it for us....at least in this one fan's opinion.

I like Pesce, but I'd trade him in a deal for Stepan fairly easily. We're not getting a guy like Duchene unless we were willing to part with Faulk, which we're not.

 

[bernmeister]

Pesce is one hit away from a career ending injury, Staal has survived 2. I dunno guys, seems like Staal has a better longevity since we have seen Pesce take a career ending type hit yet.

That COULD be a difference maker in this equation if that checks out. ATM am willing to assume deal is still a go.

thanks for the info

Nice of you to tell us Hurricanes fans what works for us....especially when you are egregiously wrong on multiple points.

Derek Stepan is a nice piece, but he doesn't hold anywhere near the value to us that you seem to think. He's a moderate scoring, moderately sized center who is more likely a 2C on many teams....perhaps even the Canes. He's a low-to-mid- 50 point guy who has trouble winning a faceoff. None of those things scream 1C to me.

Brett Pesce, on the other hand, is a young top 4 RHD on an ELC, is cost controlled, and is expansion draft exempt. In a trade he has much more valuable than that which you ascribe to him. Add to this the fact that he's not on the market and you are describing the perfect scenario where an overpayment would be called for.

Ryan Murphy could have likely been had for the right price at the draft, but that didn't materialize. Now he's been signed specifically as expansion protection. Should he break out, then great, the Canes will have a nice problem to have. Otherwise he's the blueliner that will have played enough NHL games (after this season) to be exposed. Again, there's significant value in that type of asset.

The Hurricanes are a young, rebuilding team in the draft and development stage of their progression. They are not going to trade futures for a questionable present value asset. Just because the Rangers traded a very good prospect and two 2nds for Eric Staal doesn't mean the Canes are going to do any return favors.

Finally, if the Canes trade one of their young and upcoming defensemen it will be as part of a package to get a true #1 center, think Matt Duchene. Stepan just doesn't do it for us....at least in this one fan's opinion.

Thank you for the feedback.
I disagree as to the discrepancy in value on the 2 core pieces, but it is a subjective opinion here by every one.

I like Pesce, but I'd trade him in a deal for Stepan fairly easily. We're not getting a guy like Duchene unless we were willing to part with Faulk, which we're not.

thank you for the vote in the yes column
my thinking was somewhat similar

 

[Raspewtin]

Staal is terrible and literally nobody except AV wants him.

 

[HisIceness]

I don't think we're going down the "he can play with his brother" road any more.

The time to try and trade Marc to Carolina was about 3 years ago.

I remember those days, what a time to be alive.

 

[One Winged Angel]

No. The OP makes a new Rangers proposal almost every day and it is either us completely ripping one team of or the Rangers completely getting ripped off. Nothing in between.

Yeah, so I'm noticing.

 

[NotOpie]

I like Pesce, but I'd trade him in a deal for Stepan fairly easily. We're not getting a guy like Duchene unless we were willing to part with Faulk, which we're not.

Sorry, but defaulting from Duchene to Stepan is like....well, sticking with Victor Rask.

The undervaluing here of Brett Pesce is pretty funny.

And given that I am subjective here, I view what he brings to the table more than what I'd be willing to give up for Stepan. Again, this is a subjective valuation and an anticipation of what I think will be a pretty good year for him.

Besides, #1 centers that don't win faceoffs in a possession system are a problem.

 

[smoneil]

Sorry, but defaulting from Duchene to Stepan is like....well, sticking with Victor Rask.

The undervaluing here of Brett Pesce is pretty funny.

And given that I am subjective here, I view what he brings to the table more than what I'd be willing to give up for Stepan. Again, this is a subjective valuation and an anticipation of what I think will be a pretty good year for him.

Besides, #1 centers that don't win faceoffs in a possession system are a problem.

Stepan isn't getting traded regardless, so this whole discussion is beside the point, but your homer glasses are showing here.

To be clear up front, I don't claim to be an expert on Brett Pesce. I've only really seen him in the four or five games he played against the Rangers, and he didn't really seem to stand out in those games (good or bad).

Looking at what I could see of the stat lines and history, however, unless there is some MASSIVE thing that can't be seen in the stats (and was only seen in games he didn't play against the Rangers), his value is nowhere near Stepan's.

-He was a 3rd rounder, so there's no real pedigree there.

-Aside from one really good month, he didn't produce anything in the way of offense (5 points total in the final 40 games of the season--3 of which were secondary assists).

-He was in the bottom half of team regulars in +/-.

-He seemed to get plenty of ice time and opportunities on the power play.

Yeah, he's only 21, he plays the valuable right side, and he's got great size, but nothing about his resume screams "impact player" to me. There are players who play bigger than their stats, with physical play, shut-down defense, etc. But I didn't see any of that when he played the Rangers (admittedly a small sample size).

You can point to future expectations, but again, the pedigree isn't really there.

He looks to be a good, 2nd pairing upside (with a safe bet to get there) defenseman. And while those are great to have, they aren't worth a 1st line center with shut-down defense just entering his prime. Stepan could have a 0% faceoff record. He'd still be worth more than a prospect like Pesce, and that's not a slight on Pesce (Brady Skjei on the Rangers is a similar prospect, IMO, and he ain't worth a #1 center either).

 

[FoxysExpensiveNYDigs]

^ Good post

I think Pesce is and will be good but he's not worth Stepan, just another pipe dream by a certain NYR poster who has wanted Step gone for years.

 

[Roboturner913]

I think Pesce one year from now might be worth a Stepan. He's got better upside than described above. NHL people raved about Slavin last season, but what they didn't notice is that for a pretty sizable stretch of the season Pesce was actually the best of the Slavin/Hanifin/Pesce trio.

But I wouldn't blame any NYR fan for laughing that one off right now. Whatever Pesce is worth at the moment, it's not close to being fair value for Stepan.

 

[bernmeister]

Stepan isn't getting traded regardless, so this whole discussion is beside the point, but your homer glasses are showing here.

To be clear up front, I don't claim to be an expert on Brett Pesce. I've only really seen him in the four or five games he played against the Rangers, and he didn't really seem to stand out in those games (good or bad).

Looking at what I could see of the stat lines and history, however, unless there is some MASSIVE thing that can't be seen in the stats (and was only seen in games he didn't play against the Rangers), his value is nowhere near Stepan's.

-He was a 3rd rounder, so there's no real pedigree there.

-Aside from one really good month, he didn't produce anything in the way of offense (5 points total in the final 40 games of the season--3 of which were secondary assists).

-He was in the bottom half of team regulars in +/-.

-He seemed to get plenty of ice time and opportunities on the power play.

Yeah, he's only 21, he plays the valuable right side, and he's got great size, but nothing about his resume screams "impact player" to me. There are players who play bigger than their stats, with physical play, shut-down defense, etc. But I didn't see any of that when he played the Rangers (admittedly a small sample size).

You can point to future expectations, but again, the pedigree isn't really there.

He looks to be a good, 2nd pairing upside (with a safe bet to get there) defenseman. And while those are great to have, they aren't worth a 1st line center with shut-down defense just entering his prime. Stepan could have a 0% faceoff record. He'd still be worth more than a prospect like Pesce, and that's not a slight on Pesce (Brady Skjei on the Rangers is a similar prospect, IMO, and he ain't worth a #1 center either).

^ Good post

I think Pesce is and will be good but he's not worth Stepan, just another pipe dream by a certain NYR poster who has wanted Step gone for years.

I think Pesce one year from now might be worth a Stepan. He's got better upside than described above. NHL people raved about Slavin last season, but what they didn't notice is that for a pretty sizable stretch of the season Pesce was actually the best of the Slavin/Hanifin/Pesce trio.

But I wouldn't blame any NYR fan for laughing that one off right now. Whatever Pesce is worth at the moment, it's not close to being fair value for Stepan.

Pesce is both somewhat proven to date, with an investment in potential. He is not Hanifin or other regarded as elite potential, but it is still ample enough to be enticing.

what was conveniently omitted is the Murphy throw in, and that NY wins on flip of 3 3s for 3 2s.

and that Pesce is expansion exempt.

and Bickell is off the books next year

Add all that also in the mix, and it seems fair enough to me

I respect dif of op on moving Stepan, and I come to the conclusion that, no ?,
NY should

do McD + picks upgraded to Wini for Trouba rights
then flip to Buf for Reinhart, who is ELC expansion exempt

with Hayes believed to be emerging, improving
there is basis to move Stepan for correct def return

some in NY community can't deal with loss of cherished vets, but that is the ticket to control the $, exp draft, etc

hopefully Gorton will agree w/me

 

[RodTheBawd]

I think Pesce one year from now might be worth a Stepan. He's got better upside than described above. NHL people raved about Slavin last season, but what they didn't notice is that for a pretty sizable stretch of the season Pesce was actually the best of the Slavin/Hanifin/Pesce trio.

But I wouldn't blame any NYR fan for laughing that one off right now. Whatever Pesce is worth at the moment, it's not close to being fair value for Stepan.

I disagree. Pesce was given more of an opportunity early on, before Slavin showed where he stood in that group. Myself and others called Slavin out early.

 

[DaveG]

I wouldn't say Pesce was the best, but early on he was the most reliable of the trio and that's what they were looking for at first. Not to mention he has a bit of a physical element that neither Slavin or Hanifin do. And palyed the RHD side which had less depth after the Wiz injury.