Speculation: Nylander XI - All rumors, proposals, discussion, etc. HERE

[MinJaBen]

Leafs assume more risk.

No, that is not true at all. You know exactly what you are getting in Pesce, including contract. With Nylander, the Canes don't know if his numbers are inflated due to Matthews, how much we will have to pay to sign him especially since we have less time to do so now, and we don't know if he can play the center position in the NHL to the level required. We won't be trading Pesce for him, even if you add, if he is only a RW. We have those in spades right now.

So as far as Risk goes in a Pesce for Nylander 1:1, the Canes are taking on more risk.

 

[nturn06]

Well if he signed for his market value what the Leafs want, then yeah, logically it makes sense to assume the Leafs can sign all of their young talent.

Fixed that for you....

And before you answer, consider this: we cannot agree on this thread what his market value is, most Leafs fans throw low numbers while other fans throw in 8 mils offer sheets.

But, I think we all can agree that if Nylander would have been OK with what TML offered him, he would had signed.

 

[HabsWhiteKnightLOL]

No, that is not true at all. You know exactly what you are getting in Pesce, including contract. With Nylander, the Canes don't know if his numbers are inflated due to Matthews, how much we will have to pay to sign him especially since we have less time to do so now, and we don't know if he can play the center position in the NHL to the level required. We won't be trading Pesce for him, even if you add, if he is only a RW. We have those in spades right now.

So as far as Risk goes in a Pesce for Nylander 1:1, the Canes are taking on more risk.

Exactly why if i was the Canes i would refuse this trade

Paying an RFA 8.5m who got his stats boosted playing with Matthews.
Even tho Nylander is a good player , no way he will produce that much in Carolina.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Kessel was traded for 2 1sts and a 2nd

 

[HockeyGuruPitka]

Pesce and Bean and you have a deal.

 

[MinJaBen]

Pesce and Bean and you have a deal.

No deal then.

 

[TorontoTrades]

No, that is not true at all. You know exactly what you are getting in Pesce, including contract. With Nylander, the Canes don't know if his numbers are inflated due to Matthews, how much we will have to pay to sign him especially since we have less time to do so now, and we don't know if he can play the center position in the NHL to the level required. We won't be trading Pesce for him, even if you add, if he is only a RW. We have those in spades right now.

So as far as Risk goes in a Pesce for Nylander 1:1, the Canes are taking on more risk.

Nylander's rookie year and first part of second season he didn't play a ton with Matthews. I think you either see him as a Center which increases his value or a RW to play with Aho which makes playing with Matthews somewhat irrelevant.. If he can produce with a good center that's really all that matters. Nylander is creative with the puck and not just a cleanup guy.

Terravainen - Aho - Nylander
Ferland - Staal - Svechnikov

that's a very solid top 6 moving forward. With Necas eventually taking over for Staal.

Still maintaining the top 4 of:

Slavin - Hamilton
De Haan - Faulk



Not saying Carolina would 100% do the deal I just think it does make sense from both sides. Carolina can easily afford Nylander and Aho with Staal's 6 million being the highest paid player. All trades are risky, Toronto is risking Nylander becoming an elite play maker putting up 80-90 points. However this move does make Carolina a strong balanced young team moving forward. They need to make a move to improve their offense. Only 6 players broke 40 points last season, 2 are gone and Williams is 37. Aho, Nylander, Svechnikov is some young dynamic offense.


Obviously we've seen Toronto's offense without Nylander and they have enough pieces especially with Kapanen playing so well. Pesce would be a good partner for Rielly as he plays more of a defensive game.


Risk for both sides? of course, all trades have it. Does it makes sense and have pretty fair value? yes. Probably some minor tweaks but it's good frame work.

 

[Once]

Fixed that for you....

And before you answer, consider this: we cannot agree on this thread what his market value is, most Leafs fans throw low numbers while other fans throw in 8 mils offer sheets.

But, I think we all can agree that if Nylander would have been OK with what TML offered him, he would had signed.

His comparables are well-known. Drouin/Ehlers on the lower side, Pastrnak at a relative cap % (even though Pasta is better), and Draisaitl on the other extreme with his inflated contract.

Based on that alone, he should fall somewhere in 6x6-7.25. 8 million across 6 years is absurd for a 60 point winger who has played with a franchise centre, among other factors.

Anyways, I was pointing out the flawed logic of the previous poster. It is not the Leafs management's fault if a player and his agent are overvaluing. It is more than possible that the Leafs could sign all players for the short term.

 

[7even]

No, that is not true at all. You know exactly what you are getting in Pesce, including contract.

How? He's not a forward where you can point to a track record of counting stats and have some degree of confidence that's what you can expect. When it comes to inter-team, multi-season repeatability of performance, the risk is goalies > defensive defensemen > offensive defensemen > forwards. This is fairly self-evident but you can dig through the historical record if you want.

With Nylander, the Canes don't know if his numbers are inflated due to Matthews, how much we will have to pay to sign him especially since we have less time to do so now, and we don't know if he can play the center position in the NHL to the level required. We won't be trading Pesce for him, even if you add, if he is only a RW. We have those in spades right now.

So as far as Risk goes in a Pesce for Nylander 1:1, the Canes are taking on more risk.

Nylander produced at a comparable rate last year without Matthews in the lineup, but seeing as the two have spent their entire careers together, sure, you could raise that point. I mean, spend some time watching them and you'll develop an opinion fairly quickly; I got the same vibe from watching Nylander as I did watching Aho last year.

As for not knowing how much you'll be paying him, a pre-negotiated contract is a prerequisite for RFA trades, so you will. Unless you've been negotiating this thread with the assumption you're trading Pesce for Nylander's rights, which, yeah, is pretty f***ing stupid.

 

[justafan22]

Kessel was traded for 2 1sts and a 2nd

in september of that year

 

[Canadian Canuck]

Kessel was traded for 2 1sts and a 2nd

VERY late 1sts

 

[HockeyGuruPitka]

No deal then.

 

[nturn06]

His comparables are well-known. Drouin/Ehlers on the lower side, Pastrnak at a relative cap % (even though Pasta is better), and Draisaitl on the other extreme with his inflated contract.

Based on that alone, he should fall somewhere in 6x6-7.25. 8 million across 6 years is absurd for a 60 point winger who has played with a franchise centre, among other factors.

Anyways, I was pointing out the flawed logic of the previous poster. It is not the Leafs management's fault if a player and his agent are overvaluing. It is more than possible that the Leafs could sign all players for the short term.

Well, if you think that his market value is 6-7.25, that's probably why he didn't sign. I would bet that Nylander would be more than happy with 7.25, which according to you is not far from market value, but the Leafs will definitely not sign him for that. I highly doubt that the Leafs would be willing to go over 6.3-6.4...

But somehow, the consensus among Leafs fans seems to be that this deal cannot be made because Nylander is asking way above market value.

 

[Nizdizzle]

VERY late 1sts

Are you yanking my chain?

 

[Maplebeasts]

Toronto more importantly needs goaltending. The current guy wont win you a Stanley Cup IMO

Niemi once won a cup.

 

[GoldiFox]

How? He's not a forward where you can point to a track record of counting stats and have some degree of confidence that's what you can expect. When it comes to inter-team, multi-season repeatability of performance, the risk is goalies > defensive defensemen > offensive defensemen > forwards. This is fairly self-evident but you can dig through the historical record if you want.

Maybe for Toronto fans judging other team's players but I don't think there is one meaningful argument for a NHL organization to assume a player like Justin Faulk (a more offensive D) would have a higher performance repeat-ability than Brett Pesce (a more two-way player) simply because he scores more points. Being able to Google hockeydb and confirm one's own feelings based on a number of points is almost meaningless, especially when comparing Forwards and Defensemen.

Nylander produced at a comparable rate last year without Matthews in the lineup, but seeing as the two have spent their entire careers together, sure, you could raise that point. I mean, spend some time watching them and you'll develop an opinion fairly quickly; I got the same vibe from watching Nylander as I did watching Aho last year.

As for not knowing how much you'll be paying him, a pre-negotiated contract is a prerequisite for RFA trades, so you will. Unless you've been negotiating this thread with the assumption you're trading Pesce for Nylander's rights, which, yeah, is pretty ****ing stupid.

For me Nylander has always played like a stronger Teravainen. Mostly a perimeter skill player who generates a lot of offense off the rush. Aho plays a much more physical, down-low style.

 

[shortfuze]

TO fans keep telling me they can re-sign all their top young players...I genuinely ask this then:

If they can, then what's the holdup?

There’s a big difference between fair market value and someone that wants more then he deserves.

 

[LighthouseKeepr]

But why ?

You guys sign Nylander and all 30 teams will up willing to talk trade.
At this point Nylander doesn't wanna sign in Toronto, what tells you he would sign in Carolina ?
And why would Carolina take all the risk by not only sending you a hell-of-a-player but adding a prospect on top of that ?

Nylander does want to sign with Toronto, but the two sides cannot come to an agreement on the dollar amount!

If this does get to the point of a trade (using Carolina as an example) IT WOULD BE A SIGN AND TRADE! - Nylander's team would agree to financial terms with Carolina's management ... and then the Leafs would sign him at the agreed dollar amount and then trade him to Carolina for whatever pieces Dubas and Wadell can agree on.

 

[justafan22]

Maybe for Toronto fans judging other team's players but I don't think there is one meaningful argument for a NHL organization to assume a player like Justin Faulk (a more offensive D) would have a higher performance repeat-ability than Brett Pesce (a more two-way player) simply because he scores more points. Being able to Google hockeydb and confirm one's own feelings based on a number of points is almost meaningless, especially when comparing Forwards and Defensemen.



For me Nylander has always played like a stronger Teravainen. Mostly a perimeter skill player who generates a lot of offense off the rush. Aho plays a much more physical, down-low style.

he's great at zone entries too though. He's basically a faster Kessel

 

[Once]

Well, if you think that his market value is 6-7.25, that's probably why he didn't sign. I would bet that Nylander would be more than happy with 7.25, which according to you is not far from market value, but the Leafs will definitely not sign him for that. I highly doubt that the Leafs would be willing to go over 6.3-6.4...

But somehow, the consensus among Leafs fans seems to be that this deal cannot be made because Nylander is asking way above market value.

In reality, neither of us know what the Leafs are asking and what Willy is asking. At the core of this is that the Leafs cannot contain their young talent, which to my point is yes they can if they sign players to perceived market value. At the end of the day all of us are speculating and the best way to address these conversations is to refer to perceived market value.

 

[Brock Radunske]

VERY late 1sts

Huh?
One was 2nd overall and the other was 9th overall.

 

[MAHJ71]

Nylander's rookie year and first part of second season he didn't play a ton with Matthews. I think you either see him as a Center which increases his value or a RW to play with Aho which makes playing with Matthews somewhat irrelevant.. If he can produce with a good center that's really all that matters. Nylander is creative with the puck and not just a cleanup guy.

Terravainen - Aho - Nylander
Ferland - Staal - Svechnikov

that's a very solid top 6 moving forward. With Necas eventually taking over for Staal.

Still maintaining the top 4 of:

Slavin - Hamilton
De Haan - Faulk



Not saying Carolina would 100% do the deal I just think it does make sense from both sides. Carolina can easily afford Nylander and Aho with Staal's 6 million being the highest paid player. All trades are risky, Toronto is risking Nylander becoming an elite play maker putting up 80-90 points. However this move does make Carolina a strong balanced young team moving forward. They need to make a move to improve their offense. Only 6 players broke 40 points last season, 2 are gone and Williams is 37. Aho, Nylander, Svechnikov is some young dynamic offense.


Obviously we've seen Toronto's offense without Nylander and they have enough pieces especially with Kapanen playing so well. Pesce would be a good partner for Rielly as he plays more of a defensive game.


Risk for both sides? of course, all trades have it. Does it makes sense and have pretty fair value? yes. Probably some minor tweaks but it's good frame work.

As an outsider this seems to make sense to me

 

[Leafs87]

Pesce for Nylander sounds like Hall for Larson. No way the leafs do a straight up swap.

 

[Rudeboyting]

Hope they get this guy signed...will ensure quite a few more early round playoff exits and that’s something I can get on board with

 

[PhiladelphiaKessel]

No, that is not true at all. You know exactly what you are getting in Pesce, including contract. With Nylander, the Canes don't know if his numbers are inflated due to Matthews, how much we will have to pay to sign him especially since we have less time to do so now, and we don't know if he can play the center position in the NHL to the level required. We won't be trading Pesce for him, even if you add, if he is only a RW. We have those in spades right now.

So as far as Risk goes in a Pesce for Nylander 1:1, the Canes are taking on more risk.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Nylander has always had PPG potential. He's had some consistency issues and still put up over 60 points. Pesce could come to the leafs and solidify the top pair with Rielly, meanwhile nylander likely hits 70+ points on the Canes and everyone is laughing how the Leafs got ripped off