Speculation: Nylander XI - All rumors, proposals, discussion, etc. HERE

[Critical13]

TO fans keep telling me they can re-sign all their top young players...I genuinely ask this then:

If they can, then what's the holdup?

The hold up is that we don't want to pull a Chiarelli and break our internal structure. in 5 years we will be happy we thought long and hard about this, even if it costs us 5-10 points this year.

Come back and rub it in our faces when the deadline passes and we lose him for a season. We still have a month to keep that promise or to trade him.

 

[Critical13]

Aw hell no. This trade is damn close enough as is. I wouldnt add more than the equivalent of a fifth round pick.

We disagree, but fans have notoriously out of touch concepts of player value so it doesn't really matter. I would WANT Pesce+a good piece, doesn't mean that's what will happen.

 

[Once]

Aw hell no. This trade is damn close enough as is. I wouldnt add more than the equivalent of a fifth round pick.

Then it won't happen with a 5th round addition. There needs to be a forward prospect to subside the loss effect of a 60 pt player projected to be much better in the coming years.

TO fans keep telling me they can re-sign all their top young players...I genuinely ask this then:

If they can, then what's the holdup?

Well if he signed for his market value, then yeah, logically it makes sense to assume the Leafs can sign all of their young talent.

 

[Nizdizzle]

TO fans keep telling me they can re-sign all their top young players...I genuinely ask this then:

If they can, then what's the holdup?

A contract dispute. Just because Nylander isn't signed now doesn't mean he can't be signed ever. I'm not really following your thought process. Insiders have all said teams are phoning about Nylander and being told he isn't available by Dubas. That alone should lead one to assume the Leafs plan on signing them all.

 

[powerstuck]

Sure, just not 1-for-1.

No way Willie goes 1 for 1 with Pesce. If Pesce comes back a prospect like Kuokannen needs to be a part of that.

But why ?

You guys sign Nylander and all 30 teams will up willing to talk trade.
At this point Nylander doesn't wanna sign in Toronto, what tells you he would sign in Carolina ?
And why would Carolina take all the risk by not only sending you a hell-of-a-player but adding a prospect on top of that ?

 

[bleedgreen]

We disagree, but fans have notoriously out of touch concepts of player value so it doesn't really matter. I would WANT Pesce+a good piece, doesn't mean that's what will happen.

If you factor in that:
A) he’s a RD, which whether anyone likes it or not carries high value.
B) is exactly what the Leafs need as he’s the defense first but with quick feet and a good breakout pass with great size making him the prototypical current day two way guy.
C) he’s saving the Leafs money as he’s cheaper than Nylander and signed for years, and you’re investing the money in defense where it’s needed. On a team that has to contend, is a cap team and needs to save every penny.

Canes have to add my ass. I hate the idea that this trade is probably being considered. Pesce was a miracle that fell in our laps, I’m not remotely happy about giving him up but I get like you say that we inflate our guys values. You have to give to get. I just don’t want to hear about Pesce having less value than Nylander.

 

[powerstuck]

Then it won't happen with a 5th round addition. There needs to be a forward prospect to subside the loss effect of a 60 pt player projected to be much better in the coming years.

But not worthy of a legit offer from the Leafs.

Stop giving him 6M, he won't bite. Give him 7.25/7.5 and he might.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

A contract dispute. Just because Nylander isn't signed now doesn't mean he can't be signed ever. I'm not really following your thought process. Insiders have all said teams are phoning about Nylander and being told he isn't available by Dubas. That alone should lead one to assume the Leafs plan on signing them all.

Can't understand my thought process? I didn't exactly make my statement a Rubik's Cube to figure out.

 

[Once]

But why ?

You guys sign Nylander and all 30 teams will up willing to talk trade.
At this point Nylander doesn't wanna sign in Toronto, what tells you he would sign in Carolina ?
And why would Carolina take all the risk by not only sending you a hell-of-a-player but adding a prospect on top of that ?

I agree. The missing variable is Nylander's contract, but I was speaking from the player's perceived value.

 

[Nizdizzle]

Can't understand my thought process? I didn't exactly make my statement a Rubik's Cube to figure out.

Then please explain it to me. You seem to imply that Nylander not being signed right now is proof of the Leafs not being able to sign all their young stars. That is a leap in logic that doesn't flow. Rubik's Cubes follow a logical pattern (easy to solve once you learn it!), your post does not.

If Dubas signed Nylander for $8mill per year, I'd agree with you and say, yeah we can't sign all our guys now. However, this holdout is about keeping the core together.

 

[Once]

But not worthy of a legit offer from the Leafs.

Stop giving him 6M, he won't bite. Give him 7.25/7.5 and he might.

He's coming off an ELC and has not proven to be worthy or even close of 7.5 a year. He needs to prove that.

An extreme example, but Tavares got 11m based on previous performance. Relative to Nylander, Kucherov signed his bridge and proved his worth for an 8 year extension of 9.5 aav.

 

[Nizdizzle]

But not worthy of a legit offer from the Leafs.

Stop giving him 6M, he won't bite. Give him 7.25/7.5 and he might.

If he is worth that, he can sign an offersheet. Nothing we've seen so far suggests he deserves $7.5/year besides wishful thinking from people that want to take the side against the Leafs.

 

[7even]

If you factor in that:
A) he’s a RD, which whether anyone likes it or not carries high value.
B) is exactly what the Leafs need as he’s the defense first but with quick feet and a good breakout pass with great size making him the prototypical current day two way guy.
C) he’s saving the Leafs money as he’s cheaper than Nylander and signed for years, and you’re investing the money in defense where it’s needed. On a team that has to contend, is a cap team and needs to save every penny.

Canes have to add my ass. I hate the idea that this trade is probably being considered. Pesce was a miracle that fell in our laps, I’m not remotely happy about giving him up but I get like you say that we inflate our guys values. You have to give to get. I just don’t want to hear about Pesce having less value than Nylander.

Leafs assume more risk. You know what Nylander is. Teams have been burned by defense-only defenseman before. I don't doubt Pesce is fantastic but until we can quantify defense better and more independently from the system I'm not comfortable walking into what could easily be another Hall for Larsson.

You don't have to agree, that's fine. But you should be able to see where I'm coming from.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

But why ?

You guys sign Nylander and all 30 teams will up willing to talk trade.
At this point Nylander doesn't wanna sign in Toronto, what tells you he would sign in Carolina ?
And why would Carolina take all the risk by not only sending you a hell-of-a-player but adding a prospect on top of that ?

I mean any Nylander trade in theory would probably only go through once Nylander actually has a deal in place with whatever team the Leafs would trade him too. They will give permission to discuss a contract and if that team can't come to a deal with him then the deal is off the table. Seems like the logical way for things to play out here.

 

[7even]

I mean any Nylander trade in theory would probably only go through once Nylander actually has a deal in place with whatever team the Leafs would trade him too. They will give permission to discuss a contract and if that team can't come to a deal with him then the deal is off the table. Seems like the logical way for things to play out here.

Thought this was obvious. This is always how RFA trades proceed.

 

[paulhiggins]

I mean any Nylander trade in theory would probably only go through once Nylander actually has a deal in place with whatever team the Leafs would trade him too. They will give permission to discuss a contract and if that team can't come to a deal with him then the deal is off the table. Seems like the logical way for things to play out here.

Why would anyone need the Leafs permission to discuss a contract if he's a RFA or would it just be the courteous thing to do to not get the Leafs mad before trade talk?

 

[Kamiccolo]

Leafs can't afford him at 7m, let alone 8. No chance they match an 8m deal over 5 years

They can afford him. There is no issue in affording to sign the big three. The hold out is completely about getting these guys to take fair value so the team can keep Gardiner, give Kapanen a raise, etc.

Worst case scenario they let Gardiner and Hainsey walk, bridge Kapenen, and then two seasons from now they have nearly 20M in cap space once Marleau and Horton come off the books. Then they can extend Kapanen and whoever else.

That doesn't even consider the cap going up.

"Afford" is a flexible word. Just as you may be able to "afford" a Ferrari with a job that nets 100k a year, that doesn't mean you can actually AFFORD it. The same goes for the Leafs with their forwards - sure, they can fit them all in under the cap, but at what cost? When the Leafs are in full contend mode (which could be as early as this year), they WILL be wanting to spend some of that money on defense and their bottom 6. Spending near 40m on 4 players is not a recipe for postseason success.

The Capitals, for reference, are spending around roughly 30m on their top 4 paid forwards. If Nylander wants Kuznetsov money, good luck.

Friedman did a breakdown showing the average core cap % of the last few teams to win. Leafs can comfortably be in that range.

The players are just as likely to get paid market value or take less than they are to hold out for big money.

 

[Matthews4Calder]

He's coming off an ELC and has not proven to be worthy or even close of 7.5 a year. He needs to prove that.

An extreme example, but Tavares got 11m based on previous performance. Relative to Nylander, Kucherov signed his bridge and proved his worth for an 8 year extension of 9.5 aav.

100% totally agree. I don't think any of these players are worth what they are getting coming off an entry level contract. Owners and managers messed up as in signing Eichel and Draisaitl to what I think are ridiculous contracts. Driven the price up for guys like Nylander who hasn't proven to be worth more than 6.5 million. Tavares has been around for 10 years paid his dues and his last contract was crazy cheap. He deserves the money now and that should be the case with these young guys. Prove yourself and then get rewarded. Unless you're a McDavid type player no one deserves the big bucks until your 3rd contact. Sign a bridge deal and then go from there.

Personally I've had enough of all this crap and I would let him sit. I know it sucks for the team but go play in the KHL buddy if that's your wish or sign a bridge, prove yourself and then sign a decent contract at 25 years old.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

Why would anyone need the Leafs permission to discuss a contract if he's a RFA or would it just be the courteous thing to do to not get the Leafs mad before trade talk?

I mean they could talk to him anytime they want but generally most teams have no interest in offer sheets. I think the difference is that it would be the two teams negotiating the trade outside the RFA compensation area and once the deal between teams was negotiated the team receiving Willy would try and lock him up and if they can't the deal is off.

 

[Dumpster Flyers]

Hi, fellas. Hope everyone is having a Happy Halloween! Remember not to stay up too late if you gotta wake up bright and early tomorrow. I don't care how much candy you want!

Anywho... can we do a trade centering around PHIL MYERS, NOLAN PATRICK AND WILLIAM NYLANDER. I'm just having goofy fun sry

 

[Kamiccolo]

TO fans keep telling me they can re-sign all their top young players...I genuinely ask this then:

If they can, then what's the holdup?

If I have a car for sale that is worth 500 bucks, and you have a budget of 3000 to buy a car and come to look at it, what would you say if I used the same logic?

Sure the car MIGHT be worth 500, but you said you want a car and have 3000? Just pay me and stop jerking me around!

You'd tell me to pound sand. Same thing here. They have the cap space to sign them all but it doesn't mean they will OVERpay them.

 

[bruins4thecup65]

Toronto more importantly needs goaltending. The current guy wont win you a Stanley Cup IMO

 

[powerstuck]

I mean any Nylander trade in theory would probably only go through once Nylander actually has a deal in place with whatever team the Leafs would trade him too. They will give permission to discuss a contract and if that team can't come to a deal with him then the deal is off the table. Seems like the logical way for things to play out here.

Of course, but from today you exactly have 30 days to do so (my understanding is he cannot be traded past Dec 1st if he's unsigned, since he cannot play, or if he can be traded, I don't see a team giving an asset that would help Leafs now in exchange of an asset that can only help the other team in October 2019).

 

[powerstuck]

Why would anyone need the Leafs permission to discuss a contract if he's a RFA or would it just be the courteous thing to do to not get the Leafs mad before trade talk?

You gotta see it the other way. If you are talking to Nylander in hopes of him signing a contract with you...do you have anything Leafs would be interested in for the actual trade ? You save yourself time and money.

 

[Critical13]

If you factor in that:
A) he’s a RD, which whether anyone likes it or not carries high value.
B) is exactly what the Leafs need as he’s the defense first but with quick feet and a good breakout pass with great size making him the prototypical current day two way guy.
C) he’s saving the Leafs money as he’s cheaper than Nylander and signed for years, and you’re investing the money in defense where it’s needed. On a team that has to contend, is a cap team and needs to save every penny.

Canes have to add my ass. I hate the idea that this trade is probably being considered. Pesce was a miracle that fell in our laps, I’m not remotely happy about giving him up but I get like you say that we inflate our guys values. You have to give to get. I just don’t want to hear about Pesce having less value than Nylander.

Well if you're adding your ass, we're all in