Nylander’s Playoff Breakout

[Notsince67]

Is this not you?

I mention it once in response to someone and I always talk about it?

 

[Nylander88]

I mention it once in response to someone and I always talk about it?

When did I say you always talk about it? Show me that quote please. YOU said you never talk about it. YOU. I said that's what we (you and I) were talking about. Then you said you never talk plus/minus and have no clue what I'm talking about..so I attach a quote where you directly, and unprovoked, mention +/- all on your own. Then when I explain how Marner's +/- is worse than Nylander's both in their playoff careers, and in this year's playoffs, you mention the powerplay (to which I explain is not a +/- stat). Then, somehow what I said is irrelevant and you suddenly want to talk about the capital of Portugal?

 

[Notsince67]

It was a serious question, is there some particular reason you don't want to answer?

Seriously ... in very general terms, I think both players are very skilled but their skill sets are also so different that they're difficult to compare. In general terms I'd say that Nylander has the better physical tools, faster, more explosive, stronger and has a much better shot and so on. Marner on the other hand is more of a finesse player, also an excellent skater but in a different way (the much talked about edge work and so on) and he's always had a rep for being an excellent passer and having great hockey sense. You could simplify it and say he's a smart player and that more than makes up for what he lacks in physical skills I guess, though I have to admit that after that taking one of the dumbest penalties in modern Maple Leaf history at a crucial time in the playoffs, his reputation as a super smart player has taken a pretty big hit.




Over a small sample size (ie. one playoff series) it's a pretty useless stat. I watched all the games as I always do and I'm more than comfortable saying that Nylander played much better than Marner in the playoffs.

What about you, how would you rate the play of these two players against MTL? And BTW, I'm well aware that the capital of Portugal is Lisbon so you can stick to the subject, thanks.

So I really dont know what you want me to say. Quantitatively, Marner is a deomonstratively better player. If you are asking for a qualitative assessment, we may as well argue who the better businessman is...Elon Musk or Joe shmo pizza guy.
If your position is that a player who pots 3 times more goals than a statistical model suggests is better, you might also argue that a person who guesses the right coin flip 8 out of 10 times is more skillful that one who guesses 5.

 

[Gary Nylund]

So I really dont know what you want me to say. Quantitatively, Marner is a deomonstratively better player. If you are asking for a qualitative assessment, we may as well argue who the better businessman is...Elon Musk or Joe shmo pizza guy.
If your position is that a player who pots 3 times more goals than a statistical model suggests is better, you might also argue that a person who guesses the right coin flip 8 out of 10 times is more skillful that one who guesses 5.

What do you mean you don't know what I want you to say? I asked you a simple question on how you'd rate the play of Marner and Nylander in the playoffs this season, what's not to understand?

Your answer went from Elon Musk to pizza guy to statistical models to coin flips, got it.

 

[Notsince67]

What do you mean you don't know what I want you to say? I asked you a simple question on how you'd rate the play of Marner and Nylander in the playoffs this season, what's not to understand?

Your answer went from Elon Musk to pizza guy to statistical models to coin flips, got it.

You didnt though. You asked "Who do you think is more skilled and how are you measuring their skill?" You said it was a serious question and now you are now changing it.
Did you forget?

 

[Gary Nylund]

What about you, how would you rate the play of these two players against MTL? And BTW, I'm well aware that the capital of Portugal is Lisbon so you can stick to the subject, thanks.

So I really dont know what you want me to say. Quantitatively, Marner is a deomonstratively better player. If you are asking for a qualitative assessment, we may as well argue who the better businessman is...Elon Musk or Joe shmo pizza guy.
If your position is that a player who pots 3 times more goals than a statistical model suggests is better, you might also argue that a person who guesses the right coin flip 8 out of 10 times is more skillful that one who guesses 5.

What do you mean you don't know what I want you to say? I asked you a simple question on how you'd rate the play of Marner and Nylander in the playoffs this season, what's not to understand?

Your answer went from Elon Musk to pizza guy to statistical models to coin flips, got it.

You didnt though. You asked "Who do you think is more skilled and how are you measuring their skill?" You said it was a serious question and now you are now changing it.
Did you forget?

Yes I earlier asked you that question about their skill but you didn't answer. Then in another response to one of your posts I asked about their play against MTL (quoted above), did you forget? Then you responded to my question with more nonsense (quoted above) and I repeated the question (quoted above).

You seem to be having a lot of difficulty following your own conversations. Strange that you would quote posts and respond to them when it seems like you didn't even read them.

 

[Notsince67]

Yes I earlier asked you that question about their skill but you didn't answer. Then in another response to one of your posts I asked about their play against MTL (quoted above), did you forget? Then you responded to my question with more nonsense (quoted above) and I repeated the question (quoted above).

You seem to be having a lot of difficulty following your own conversations. Strange that you would quote posts and respond to them when it seems like you didn't even read them.

well well lets see now.

Really, that's interesting. Who do you think is more skilled and how are you measuring their skill?

I responded "good talk devils advocate. Get serious"

It was a serious question, is there some particular reason you don't want to answer?

Seriously ... in very general terms, I think both players are very skilled but their skill sets are also so different that they're difficult to compare. In general terms I'd say that Nylander has the better physical tools, faster, more explosive, stronger and has a much better shot and so on. Marner on the other hand is more of a finesse player, also an excellent skater but in a different way (the much talked about edge work and so on) and he's always had a rep for being an excellent passer and having great hockey sense. You could simplify it and say he's a smart player and that more than makes up for what he lacks in physical skills I guess, though I have to admit that after that taking one of the dumbest penalties in modern Maple Leaf history at a crucial time in the playoffs, his reputation as a super smart player has taken a pretty big hit.

Then you added my quote from someone "You understand expected goals is probabilistic right?"
you responded

Over a small sample size (ie. one playoff series) it's a pretty useless stat. I watched all the games as I always do and I'm more than comfortable saying that Nylander played much better than Marner in the playoffs.

What about you, how would you rate the play of these two players against MTL? And BTW, I'm well aware that the capital of Portugal is Lisbon so you can stick to the subject, thanks.

You set up a straw man. Expected goals are regressed through a large sample size so that infrequent events such as goals can be substituted so as not to have dummies use them as a measuring stick in small sample sizes to assess quality of play. It mitigates "luck" . You have it exactly backwards. You try to set me up to use goals across 7 games like a dummy would as an assessment of quality play. It doesn't work that way. Almost on every metric, Marner exceeded Nylander on higher frequency events. The fact that Marner had a higher quality of QoC, makes it even more compelling.
I didnt bite and you flip it on me as avoiding your question or getting confused.
I hope you spend the time to learn something because the confusion is yours.

The conversation is dumb. Nylander did Ok. I wasn't happy with the results of the M&M line but I've already stated my opinion about that.
Nylander is a good player but he isn't anywhere near the player of Marner. Nobody in the league would think that the two are equal players. It isn't even close.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You set up a straw man. Expected goals are regressed through a large sample size so that infrequent events such as goals can be substituted so as not to have dummies use them as a measuring stick in small sample sizes to assess quality of play. It mitigates "luck" . You have it exactly backwards. You try to set me up to use goals across 7 games like a dummy would as an assessment of quality play. It doesn't work that way. Almost on every metric, Marner exceeded Nylander on higher frequency events. The fact that Marner had a higher quality of QoC, makes it even more compelling.
I didnt bite and you flip it on me as avoiding your question or getting confused.
I hope you spend the time to learn something because the confusion is yours.

The conversation is dumb. Nylander did Ok. I wasn't happy with the results of the M&M line but I've already stated my opinion about that.
Nylander is a good player but he isn't anywhere near the player of Marner. Nobody in the league would think that the two are equal players. It isn't even close.

I asked you how you would rate the play of Marner and Nylander against MTL. That's about as simple and straightforward as a question can get. You say I have it backwards - all I did was ask you a simple question, what the hell is backwards about asking a simple question?

If asking a simple question is to you a straw man, you're far off the deep end my friend. Good luck!

 

[ShaneFalco]

Pookie must be back

 

[Aashir]

What do you mean you don't know what I want you to say? I asked you a simple question on how you'd rate the play of Marner and Nylander in the playoffs this season, what's not to understand?

Your answer went from Elon Musk to pizza guy to statistical models to coin flips, got it.

He won’t give a straight answer no matter what. No point in arguing with him. Brings up expected goals thinking those won us the series. If someone is so biased where they blame everything apart from the big boys for that loss, then idk what to say. We want to see results, he’s fine with almost scoring, but not actually scoring

 

[ULF_55]

It's always down to the Marner vs Nylander debate, so here's the latest recap.

Nylander's cap hit is low enough that he can live up to expectations at a reasonable level of growth and he's a better natural athlete than Marner. Maybe not the 'ultra creativity' but he's stronger, bigger, can battle, has a shot and can carry the puck cleanly which sadly isn't always the case with Marner. He's been buried a little bit being demoted from the Original Big 3 to a Medium 2 behind the Matthews Marner Big 2. His utilization has been low and his regular season numbers haven't skyrocketed. He should be kept and trusted with more.

At his cap hit today, it isn't like trading him lets you pick up / sign more than one good player, so he could be traded in a 1 for 1 deal, prospects, picks and I don't see a huge improvement by do so.

Who becomes the #2 RW?

It isn't like if you traded him for a $7mm player you have an extra 3 million leftover to re-sign Rielly.

Sounds like Dubas received some offers for the core four, but nothing that he believes makes the team better.

The team really needs a top 6 performance from the top 6 this year in the playoffs.

 

[diceman934]

There's a substantial delta between Mitch Marner and William Nylander in terms of offensive production, but their skillsets are so different I wouldn't sign off on one being more "skilled than the other" since they don't even generate the same way.

Marner has the endurance of a long distance runner, but William Nylander evolved into a very strong player who has that lower center of gravity and has more of a gym rat athleticism that is completely absent in Marner.

Marner has fantastic edge work and relatively poor balance, but Nylander has better balance, explosiveness and separation speed.

Marner has better vision and is famous for making unexpected and creative plays with the puck few can but can bobble the puck on routine plays. Nylander's puckhandling is unconsciously smooth and has the ability to one hand rag the puck a la Peter Forsberg.

Marner has a below average arsenal of shots relative to his 'skill reputation.' Nylander can wire it with his bullet wrister and has an underrated clapper.

Lol. Every metric states that Marner is vastly superior.
Makes his line mates better. Nylander Does not. Despite having a better shot you say why does Nylander have the same amount of goals. Harder is only good if you can score more. skating is perhaps the only comparable skill set and Marner is a better overall skater.
Marner makes players he plays with better.
Nylander had a good 7 game series against Montreal but 7 games mean nothing when comparing players. Over their careers in the playoffs Marner has lead the leafs in points.

 

[stickty111]

Nylander has been a better playoff performer then Marner so far. You can't really debate it. Marner needs take lessons from Willy on improvememt.

 

[saffronleaf]

Nylander has been a better playoff performer then Marner so far. You can't really debate it. Marner needs take lessons from Willy on improvememt.

The difference between them this past playoffs was night and day.

 

[diceman934]

Nylander has been a better playoff performer then Marner so far. You can't really debate it. Marner needs take lessons from Willy on improvememt.

Facts state otherwise.

 

[Gabriel426]

Willie performed better in the last playoffs, let’s just leave it as that.
Both of them are on the Leafs.
Also, it is easier for Willie to outperform his contract bc he makes 7mil instead of just under 11mil.

 

[Maplebeasts]

Facts state otherwise.

No. No they do not.

 

[diceman934]

No. No they do not.

Sure they do. Leading scorer in the playoffs. Fact.

 

[Havoc]

Facts state otherwise.

Marner hasn't done anything in the playoffs since he blocked those Pasta shots. Relax.

 

[ULF_55]

Well, to be fair, Nylander was the best this year's playoffs, but really we want them all to be their best.

William Nylander wins gold medal and MVP at World Championships

We need these guys:

Overall, Nathan MacKinnon, Artemi Panarin and Nikita Kucherov all finished the tournament with more points than Nylander, but the difference is Nylander led Sweden to their first gold medal in four years, which certainly carries weight when determining an MVP.
For Toronto Maple Leafs fans, the gold medal game was bittersweet. On one side you had Nylander celebrating gold, while on the other you had Mitch Marner and his Canadian teammates dejected with their disappointing loss.
Marner had a great tournament, however, finishing with four goals and eight assists, and also added a couple of highlight reel moments of his own, like this filthy toe drag goal against Finland.

 

[Gabriel426]

Sure they do. Leading scorer in the playoffs. Fact.

If you are going to do that, then I guess Jumbo was the Leafs leading scorer in playoffs last season considering all the playoff points he got in his career.
Willie outperformed Marner last playoffs, heck he outperformed all the Leafs last playoffs. It doesn’t mean he is the best Leafs. Spezza scored 3 goals and had same points than AM, does that make Spezza our No.1 C too? Actually AF got more points than AM and Spezza, would that make him out No.1 C?

 

[diceman934]

If you are going to do that, then I guess Jumbo was the Leafs leading scorer in playoffs last season considering all the playoff points he got in his career.
Willie outperformed Marner last playoffs, heck he outperformed all the Leafs last playoffs. It doesn’t mean he is the best Leafs. Spezza scored 3 goals and had same points than AM, does that make Spezza our No.1 C too? Actually AF got more points than AM and Spezza, would that make him out No.1 C?

He play for the leafs last year only. Marner has lead the leafs in playoff points over 5 years. He play against top shut down lines all through the playoffs. Nylander played against a 3 line at best.

 

[diceman934]

Marner hasn't done anything in the playoffs since he blocked those Pasta shots. Relax.

Lol. So wrong. The reason why I stayed away all year. Most posters on here have a very limited knowledge of the game.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

Lol. Every metric states that Marner is vastly superior.
Makes his line mates better. Nylander Does not. Despite having a better shot you say why does Nylander have the same amount of goals. Harder is only good if you can score more. skating is perhaps the only comparable skill set and Marner is a better overall skater.
Marner makes players he plays with better.
Nylander had a good 7 game series against Montreal but 7 games mean nothing when comparing players. Over their careers in the playoffs Marner has lead the leafs in points.

Lol Nylander does make the players around him better. Stop being over dramatic. Marner is the overall better playmaker with insane creativity, but Nylander isn't some scrub being carried.

Since Marner's Mega deal Nylander has been PPG over the past two playoff series, Marner hasn't even scored.

We've seen Nylander step up on big stages in World Championships and now the NHL playoffs. When the moment matters most Nylander at 7M is much better value than Marner at 11M heck he might be the better overall playoff performer at this point.

3 disappointing Playoffs in a row from Marner, let's just hope something clicks next season because another performance like this one and Dubas is fired and the next GM hopefully trades Marner because you can't have an 11M player posting dud performances in the playoffs, you just can't win like that in a cap league.

 

[Gabriel426]

He play for the leafs last year only. Marner has lead the leafs in playoff points over 5 years. He play against top shut down lines all through the playoffs. Nylander played against a 3 line at best.

Willie did perform better than MM in the last playoffs. It didn’t matter the other circumstances, Willie performed better. But it doesn’t mean Willie is a better player than MM. AF and Spezza got more points than AM and MM, would that make them better players too?
If Brooks scores a Hatty in the first game while no Leafs score, should we start trading AM, MM and Willie bc Brooks scores 3 goals while they got none.
Both Willie and MM are Leafs players, I really don’t understand why MM fans don’t give credits and praises to Willie when he plays well. I am very interested to see if Willie wins the Conn Sythe for the Leafs, will MM fans say it was fixed and they only do that bc for whatever reasons they can come up with….
If anything, as Leafs fans, you want all the Leafs to have great seasons bc if that happens, it means Leafs should
be winning games and might even be Cup Champs.