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Proposal: NYI tear-down (Pick Acquisition)

Mackiaveli said:
the whole point is you are replacing a top NHL talent (who was injured for half the year) with an NHL-ready prospect and back-to-back mid 1sts? The 'hole' is intentional, and makes the team worse so that they can be in a better position to draft McKenna/Dupont. That is quite literally the entire premise of this thought exercise.
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I think this thought exercise may have gone better if you clarified that you're a Habs fan as opposed to insinuating that you're an impartial outsider, i.e. "not an Islanders fan".

Part of the issue with this is that fans of opposing teams are for some reason advocating more severe teardowns than what I'm personally comfortable with. We just got a first overall pick for free, and I'm VERY tempted to try to trade back into the top five to get Hagens, but at the expense of Barzal, Horvat, AND Dobson? That's an insane cost. I'm tempted to offer something involving Barzal OR Dobson for a top five pick (I don't think Horvat gets it done), maybe offloading some less valuable pieces (Lee? Pageau? Pelech?) and then re-assessing from there. There's potential for a very quick retool here and for some reason everyone else sees this as an opportunity to gut our roster and I think it has more to do with the fact that we have some premium pieces and this is a weaker draft so a lot of teams would be content to move these picks for more immediate help.

Horvat has a full NTC and I don't see him waiving BTW.
 
miscs75 said:
Check multiple Habs threads. Most Habs fans have Hage and Reinbacher as borderline untouchable. It’s always Mailloux and the picks which I don’t really care for. He’s in too many deals and it’s just a red flag nomatter how you try to spin it.
I’d rather have the prospect over the picks and start to build the team back up, not a bunch of 3-5 year projects that we’re hoping all hit their projection.
Dach is damaged goods at this point and essentially flipping Pulock for Newhook just keeps the term on the books but rotates the position. Ideally if it’s a cap dump, it’s a short term deal so the player can be cast away at years end.
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Okay so if you aren't interested in Mailloux or mid 1sts then say you don't think the Islanders should retool?

Mailloux is in a lot of proposal because he is a good prospect we don't think will have space in our system as we have a ton of young Dmen and can't have an entire dcore under 25. He's our 2nd best defensive prospect.

Reinbacher is untouchable because he's a recent 5th overall pick who will be in the roster next year and likely top 4 the following.

Hage is imo only available for a top 6 with term (Horvat) many Habs fans would hate that deal. Because it would hurt. But you have give to get.

Dach and Matheson both have 1 year left and are cheap. Ie not enough roster spots.
 
Captain97 said:
Okay so if you aren't interested in Mailloux or mid 1sts then say you don't think the Islanders should retool?

Mailloux is in a lot of proposal because he is a good prospect we don't think will have space in our system as we have a ton of young Dmen and can't have an entire dcore under 25. He's our 2nd best defensive prospect.

Reinbacher is untouchable because he's a recent 5th overall pick who will be in the roster next year and likely top 4 the following.

Hage is imo only available for a top 6 with term (Horvat) many Habs fans would hate that deal. Because it would hurt. But you have give to get.

Dach and Matheson both have 1 year left and are cheap. Ie not enough roster spots.
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Moving out Barzal/Horvat/Dobson for futures isn’t a retool, it’s a start of a rebuild. Retool would be moving Dobson for pieces that can ultimately improve the current roster and Mailloux really isn’t it. He could develop into a solid defenseman but he’s essentially being blocked by Romanov, Pelech and ultimately Schaefer if the Islanders draft him. Even on the right side it’s currently Dobson, Pulock, Mayfield. Now if you want to talk Horvat, the trade would have to involve Hage based on positional needs alone but I don’t want Mailloux as the prospect in return for him no matter how many ways the trade gets spun/mediocre pieces get added in.
As for the 3 Islanders defenseman signed to long term contract. Personally I feel like they’re going to move out 2 of them for futures to overhaul the aging core.

For the Habs fan, what I’ve seen for the most part is that they want to upgrade the roster but are expecting the team to only take futures in return. That reads like everyone needs to rebuild except us and you need to help us out.
 
miscs75 said:
Moving out Barzal/Horvat/Dobson for futures isn’t a retool, it’s a start of a rebuild. Retool would be moving Dobson for pieces that can ultimately improve the current roster and Mailloux really isn’t it. He could develop into a solid defenseman but he’s essentially being blocked by Romanov, Pelech and ultimately Schaefer if the Islanders draft him. Even on the right side it’s currently Dobson, Pulock, Mayfield. Now if you want to talk Horvat, the trade would have to involve Hage based on positional needs alone but I don’t want Mailloux as the prospect in return for him no matter how many ways the trade gets spun/mediocre pieces get added in.
As for the 3 Islanders defenseman signed to long term contract. Personally I feel like they’re going to move out 2 of them for futures to overhaul the aging core.

For the Habs fan, what I’ve seen for the most part is that they want to upgrade the roster but are expecting the team to only take futures in return. That reads like everyone needs to rebuild except us and you need to help us out.
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Dude, you need to stop putting everything all Habs fan say on all of us. There are a ton of Habs fans and we bicker with each other all the time on our own board we arent a hive mind.

What players not even necessarily Habs players/prospects would you be targeting in a Bo Horvat trade? And if the answer is i don't think we should trade the Vets then just say that and stop pretending value isn't being offered for them.

Btw i think the Islanders should retool over the next couple years. The East is getting stronger and they have been in no man's land for a while. They remind me of late 2010's Montreal. Great gaolie some good piece not enough.
 
Mackiaveli said:
May I ask why?

If there is even the remotest of inclinations to draft Hagens, being able to secure both Schaefer @ 1 and Hagens @ 4 feels like a no-brainer.

Habs and Utah both in need of Cs/RHDs and both have valuable pick capital (4OA / 16OA+17OA) which makes them seem like great natural trade partners.

Would you prefer the Islanders take Schaefer and try to just continue with the group they have?
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The Utah trade is the only one I would even consider. If Isles take Schaefer at 1, then they can afford to trade Dobson and throw in Horvat to come away with Hagens, Kesselring and Crouse, I would do that. There is no chance I am doing the Barzal montreal trade. Isles are not trading Barzal for that package. You build around him and then have a Center lineup of Barzal, Ritchie, Hagens, which would be sick
 
Captain97 said:
Dude, you need to stop putting everything all Habs fan say on all of us. There are a ton of Habs fans and we bicker with each other all the time on our own board we arent a hive mind.

What players not even necessarily Habs players/prospects would you be targeting in a Bo Horvat trade? And if the answer is i don't think we should trade the Vets then just say that and stop pretending value isn't being offered for them.

Btw i think the Islanders should retool over the next couple years. The East is getting stronger and they have been in no man's land for a while. They remind me of late 2010's Montreal. Great gaolie some good piece not enough.
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Check the board. About 50% of the posts lately involve Habs fans asking for the same trades over and over again with the same answer. We’ve seen Habs fans ask for Horvat, Barzal and a lesser extent Dobson multiple times and it’s always some form of multiple pieces of futures, Mailloux and a bunch of filler pieces. Moving out a top 6 center to get back a LHD even if he’s young and NHL ready isn’t really going to work. Theres minimal offensive talent on the roster and moving more for defensemen isn’t the way to go.

I’ve said it multiple times, asking for Barzal or Horvat needs to return Hage+. Assuming Hage is close to NHL ready as a middle 6 center, he can fill the void left by the loss of Barzal/Horvat.

Should the Islanders retool? Yes. Should they retool by casting off everyone for futures and cap dumps only? Not a chance.
 
miscs75 said:
Check the board. About 50% of the posts lately involve Habs fans asking for the same trades over and over again with the same answer. We’ve seen Habs fans ask for Horvat, Barzal and a lesser extent Dobson multiple times and it’s always some form of multiple pieces of futures, Mailloux and a bunch of filler pieces. Moving out a top 6 center to get back a LHD even if he’s young and NHL ready isn’t really going to work. Theres minimal offensive talent on the roster and moving more for defensemen isn’t the way to go.

I’ve said it multiple times, asking for Barzal or Horvat needs to return Hage+. Assuming Hage is close to NHL ready as a middle 6 center, he can fill the void left by the loss of Barzal/Horvat.

Should the Islanders retool? Yes. Should they retool by casting off everyone for futures and cap dumps only? Not a chance.
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So why are you bickering with me?

I'd do

Hage + 17th + Dach (1 year cap/roster)

For
Horvat + latest 2nd/3rd this year or next
 
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miscs75 said:
So offer up the prospects to give the Islanders guts to put with McKenna/Dupont
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Barzal, Dobson and Horvat do not get you Slafkovsky, Hutson or Demidov in any galaxy.

You could argue Hage - but given Hage slipped to 21 in a draft that was also seen as weak after the top 10-12 picks, this flies in the face of your entire premise that 16/17 are "throw-ins". If Hage can be the center-piece for any of these deals, Mailloux likely is comparable in value given his position/handedness, and 16/17 are definitely worth more than Hage at face value.


miscs75 said:
the player over the picks is the figure piece
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See, if this was the stance you took from the very beginning - nobody would really argue with it.

"I would prefer if the Islanders trade Barzal or Dobson that they are doing so for an established prospect instead of draft picks"

vs

"That trade is shit because those picks have no value"

miscs75 said:
Most Habs fans have Hage and Reinbacher as borderline untouchable
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Hage has a soft spot in Habs heart with his story and the fact he grew up a fan of the team and can speak French - he's worth more to them than anyone else, sort of thing.

Any Reinbacher trade would be selling very low on a guy who, if he can stay healthy, has the tools and skills to be a legit 25 minute a night shutdown RHD, which are ultra rare in the NHL.

miscs75 said:
He’s in too many deals and it’s just a red flag nomatter how you try to spin it.
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It's not because Maillloux is a bad kid or a bad prospect - its that Guhle/Hutson have both shown they can play on the right side. With how valuable RHDs are, the most valuable non-NHL piece they have to trade right now IS Mailloux.
 
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Captain97 said:
So why are you bickering with me?

I'd do

Hage + 17th + Dach (1 year cap/roster)

For
Horvat + latest 2nd/3rd this year or next
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Your fanbase has flooded the boards with these trades. I still don’t care for Dach personally but if he can stay healthy (doubtful), I’ll take him over video game man and Matheson.
 
seabass45 said:
I think this thought exercise may have gone better if you clarified that you're a Habs fan as opposed to insinuating that you're an impartial outsider, i.e. "not an Islanders fan".
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The focus of the trade proposals was not around Montreal - it was around retooling the Islanders with draft picks, and the Habs happen to have a need for a 2nd line forward and have picks and prospects to facilitate a trade.

Regardless, the part of the proposal I think is more intriguing is not the MTL/Barzal swap, but the 4OA swap to land Schaefer and Hagens.
seabass45 said:
There's potential for a very quick retool here and for some reason everyone else sees this as an opportunity to gut our roster and I think it has more to do with the fact that we have some premium pieces and this is a weaker draft so a lot of teams would be content to move these picks for more immediate help.
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While I get your POV, and I am sure that is the case for many fans, I did not view this as an opportunity to fleece the Islanders.

I see two franchise-altering talents in McKenna and Dupont, and with all of the current bottom-feeders hopefully ready to take a meaningful jump next year (Chicago, Anaheim, SJS) there is a huge opportunity for teams who are in no-mans land (Detroit, NYI, PIT) to sell their handful of valuable assets and commit to a Canadiens style rebuild.

Selling your few premium assets who aren't going to line up age wise with this new core (Dobson is only because of the rumors about him being traded, I think NYI would be wise to keep him) and being a tire fire for the next two years is... not a bad thing. They could also sell Pulock, Pelech, Sorokin, and REALLY phone it in, but whether or not that's worth it is tough to project.
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From my POV, if the Islanders trade Barzal/Horvat/Dobson and leave the draft with Schaefer, Hagens, 1-2 more 20-22 year old prospects, Lakovic and Hensler they would go from one of the worst, to one of the best prospect pools in the span of a few days.
 
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Mackiaveli said:
Barzal, Dobson and Horvat do not get you Slafkovsky, Hutson or Demidov in any galaxy.

You could argue Hage - but given Hage slipped to 21 in a draft that was also seen as weak after the top 10-12 picks, this flies in the face of your entire premise that 16/17 are "throw-ins". If Hage can be the center-piece for any of these deals, Mailloux likely is comparable in value given his position/handedness, and 16/17 are definitely worth more than Hage at face value.




See, if this was the stance you took from the very beginning - nobody would really argue with it.

"I would prefer if the Islanders trade Barzal or Dobson that they are doing so for an established prospect instead of draft picks"

vs

"That trade is shit because those picks have no value"


Hage has a soft spot in Habs heart with his story and the fact he grew up a fan of the team and can speak French - he's worth more to them than anyone else, sort of thing.

Any Reinbacher trade would be selling very low on a guy who, if he can stay healthy, has the tools and skills to be a legit 25 minute a night shutdown RHD, which are ultra rare in the NHL.



It's not because Maillloux is a bad kid or a bad prospect - its that Guhle/Hutson have both shown they can play on the right side. With how valuable RHDs are, the most valuable non-NHL piece they have to trade right now IS Mailloux.
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Read my replies from other threads involving trades. I’ve said no to Mailloux about 6000 times and prospects over picks as well. Even back to the Nelson threads I said better quality prospect over the pick. So we can keep going back and forth but if I’m moving a top 6 center with an already limited forward group, I don’t have an interest in getting back a defenseman with a pretty cramped group.
Based on this, the Islanders trade a top 6 center for a defenseman who’s going into a cramped right side with Dobson, Mayfield and Pulock already. Who’s supposed to fill that top 6 center role if one of them goes? Logan Mailloux isn’t and those 2 picks aren’t either.
 
miscs75 said:
Based on this, the Islanders trade a top 6 center for a defenseman who’s going into a cramped right side with Dobson, Mayfield and Pulock already. Who’s supposed to fill that top 6 center role if one of them goes? Logan Mailloux isn’t and those 2 picks aren’t either.
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The idea is that it would be Mayfield/Pulock/Mailloux

If we assume anyone > 25 is not going to be part of the 'next core' of the Islanders, your prospects are:

Eiserman (W)
Dufour (W)
Ritchie (C)
+
Pulkkinen and Odelius (D)?

In 5 years, the only current Islanders outside of those named above we would expect to see on the roster is Dobson if he signs a 7-8yr extension and maybe Holmstrom.

Yes, the Islanders could grab Schaefer and just keep chugging along with a mini-retool to hopefully build a team good enough to get over the hump - you definitely have some of the right pieces to be a perpetual wild card threat - but the moment Barzal/Horvat/Pelech/Pulock/Sorokin age out, if you were somehow a relevant wild-card team for the previous 4 years, your prospect pool will still be absolutely barren.

The next two drafts have McDavid/Matthews level talents at the top - and if there's an opportunity to completely replenish your depth, and realistically have a good chance at two top flight prospects - why not is really my question?
 
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Mackiaveli said:
May I ask why?

If there is even the remotest of inclinations to draft Hagens, being able to secure both Schaefer @ 1 and Hagens @ 4 feels like a no-brainer.

Habs and Utah both in need of Cs/RHDs and both have valuable pick capital (4OA / 16OA+17OA) which makes them seem like great natural trade partners.

Would you prefer the Islanders take Schaefer and try to just continue with the group they have?
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The problem is that trading both Horvat and Dobson Hagen's needs to become a superstar to make that deal fair, Crouse and that package don't cut it.
 
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Beendair Donedat said:
Habs would have more interest in Horvat than Barzal. Horvat is a left handed shot and plays a grittier game, and a genuine top 6 center. Barzal is a winger and not the guy the Habs would targeting with all those pieces.

Now if the Isles are willing to move Horvat, I’m sure both firsts and Mailloux would be on the table but the Habs would probably want to make it bigger to include Pulock in the deal and get all their shopping done at the same time.

I’d counter with -

To New York Islanders: two 2025 1st round picks, Jayden Struble, and Logan Mailloux

To Montreal Canadiens: Bo Horvat and Ryan Pulock.
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Habs should have no interest in trading 2-1st rd picks + for a 30 yr old player. I.m pretty sure our G.M. isn't that stupid.
 
Mackiaveli said:
The idea is that it would be Mayfield/Pulock/Mailloux

If we assume anyone > 25 is not going to be part of the 'next core' of the Islanders, your prospects are:

Eiserman (W)
Dufour (W)
Ritchie (C)
+
Pulkkinen and Odelius (D)?

In 5 years, the only current Islanders outside of those named above we would expect to see on the roster is Dobson if he signs a 7-8yr extension and maybe Holmstrom.

Yes, the Islanders could grab Schaefer and just keep chugging along with a mini-retool to hopefully build a team good enough to get over the hump - you definitely have some of the right pieces to be a perpetual wild card threat - but the moment Barzal/Horvat/Pelech/Pulock/Sorokin age out, if you were somehow a relevant wild-card team for the previous 4 years, your prospect pool will still be absolutely barren.
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So the Islanders just cast off Dobson, Barzal, Horvat and Sorokin for futures and hope everyone develops without a huccup? That’s really bound to go well. Especially with the replacement pieces not even filling positional needs at the moment.
Dufour was moved in the Nelson deal so he’s not even available. Danny Nelson is available though who’s having a solid college career and projecting into a 3C.

In 4 years, most of that core will be on the last 2-3 years of their respective deals as well as the cap going up, they won’t even be that bad of a cap hit. Barzal, Horvat and other veterans shift down in the lineup while the younger players move up plus anyone else acquired in between. They still have the skill throughout the lineup instead of still hoping for everyone to make it out of the minors still.
 
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