Proposal: NYI tear-down (Pick Acquisition)

[seabass45]

LOL, except it was not posted by a Habs fan, who sort of confirmed our thought on the value.

There's another trade here from a Habs fan involving those pieces (in this case we have the pleasure of losing Sorokin and Mayfield too). They keep getting offered and the message is clear at this point: they're very disposable pieces you think you can use to get a significantly better player. Mailloux has baggage and if the draft were deeper you wouldn't feel as comfortable trading both first rounders.

16th and 17th OA are not spare parts. Any fan trying to spit it that way are reaching.

If you're going to keep offering the same quantity for quality offers over and over again (see here where you're offering the same package for Sidney Crosby) you should get used to jokes about it. Sorry!

 

[miscs75]

Pelech for 13OA?

I’d take that deal. Pelech does have a full NTC so he’d need to accept.

 

[JTToilinginToronto]

Habs would have more interest in Horvat than Barzal. Horvat is a left handed shot and plays a grittier game, and a genuine top 6 center. Barzal is a winger and not the guy the Habs would targeting with all those pieces.

Now if the Isles are willing to move Horvat, I’m sure both firsts and Mailloux would be on the table but the Habs would probably want to make it bigger to include Pulock in the deal and get all their shopping done at the same time.

I’d counter with -

To New York Islanders: two 2025 1st round picks, Jayden Struble, and Logan Mailloux

To Montreal Canadiens: Bo Horvat and Ryan Pulock.

I'd want Hage as the center piece if we're trading Horvat.

 

[Mackiaveli]

Interested in #4 but Dobson AND Horvat is an awfully steep price to get it.

My framing here is really around the amount of cap the Islanders get to shed with no penalty, and this is predicated on the Islanders wanting to move on from Dobson as opposed to paying him what he is going to command. Yes it is a steep price, but how often are top 5 picks moved? I could see Horvat being replaced with something else, but even Dobson + 16/17 in this theoretical trade universe is likely not enticing enough of a package to get Utah to pass on Frondell/Martone

Habs offer is becoming the Ryder, Halak, and a second of our time.

kind of a crazy comm to me - Mailloux has trended 'acceptably' in his development, and by most accounts was more like a 10-20OA talent (he is only 22) ... Hamilton got traded from BOS -> CGY for 15/45/52, which is objectively less draft value than 16 + 17, for example. I'm not arguing you should be thrilled with this as the centerpiece of a Barzal return if you aren't - but disagree that this is bad value, or even remotely reflects Ryder/Halak/2nd.

except it was not posted by a Habs fan

to be clear I AM a Habs fan - I don't think this is a biased proposal, though; Barzal is coming off an injury and has been playing LW more than C for the past couple of seasons - he's also about to turn 28 and has a big cap hit. If the Habs are asked to pay more, there are presumably better fits available around the league.

Those last 2 trades are downright terrible

I think in previous iterations of the NHL I would be more inclined to agree that the Utah trade especially is one-sided, but look at how Montreal was able to leverage their cap space during the early years of the rebuild ... being able to draft twice in the top 4 and considerably 'weakening' your roster with two franchise quality drafts around the corner isn't the worst thing in the world.

Would it be better then this years 1sts and Mailloux

Most advanced tools put the Habs 1st picks at 23/22 for pick value; for context, the Flyers pick is worth 46 ... so if we were to generously slide two spots back in terms of value prop - 8OA + Mailloux for Barzal coming off an injury is a very good deal?

If your stance is "this draft isn't deep enough to want 16/17" then that's totally fine - but the value isn't that misaligned here. I also think if it's the 'first trade' they do, it would give them a LOT of options to move around the draft.

they're very disposable pieces you think you can use to get a significantly better player

To be clear, it isn't about being disposable, it's the fact that the Habs core is ready to take another step, and adding two prospects who are 3-4 years away from being NHL regulars when their u24 group is so stacked already doesn't really help them. The 16/17 have way more value to teams with depleted cupboards (Boston is a great example) than they are to the Habs - that doesn't mean they are throwaway picks or 'scraps'.

 

[Captain97]

Would it be better then this years 1sts and Mailloux with filler pieces to offset? If it is in terms of quality, possibly. If it’s that with more of those filler pieces then absolute not. Not interested in Dach (or other damaged goods), Matheson or Laine in return even if it’s cap purposes.

If the Islanders won't take back NHLers on fair cap (Matheson) then no trade will be made with any team. It's nature of the cap league.

Do you think the 16th/17th overall picks are spare parts? Or are you saying the other adds onto of those picks are spare parts?

 

[seabass45]

kind of a crazy comm to me - Mailloux has trended 'acceptably' in his development, and by most accounts was more like a 10-20OA talent (he is only 22) ... Hamilton got traded from BOS -> CGY for 15/45/52, which is objectively less draft value than 16 + 17, for example. I'm not arguing you should be thrilled with this as the centerpiece of a Barzal return if you aren't - but disagree that this is bad value, or even remotely reflects Ryder/Halak/2nd.

He has baggage and they caught heat for the pick. Don't have a lot of interest in taking that on. If you're going to make that pick then see it through.

 

[Captain97]

I'd want Hage as the center piece if we're trading Horvat.

Completely understandable and that is something you'll get mixed reactions from Habs fans about. In my gut that hurts but I'd consider so imo. Hage + is likely fair.

Hage + 2nd + Newhook to me kind of resembles the paccioretty trade. (That's Pittsburgh 2nd so it's 41 overall)

Good prospect taken mid 1st + 2nd + Middle six roster player. For a 30 goal forward.

 

[miscs75]

If the Islanders won't take back NHLers on fair cap (Matheson) then no trade will be made with any team. It's nature of the cap league.

Do you think the 16th/17th overall picks are spare parts? Or are you saying the other adds onto of those picks are spare parts?

The fact that you’re offering mid round 1sts, defensive prospects and cap dumps to offset the hole the Isles will have from losing Barzal is the issue. I’d rather take a better prospect than Mailloux from a team that isn’t Montreal.
This same package has been posted up to ask for every 2C with just about everyone saying no should say something. Mailloux really doesn’t impress most people enough to be the prospect to tack onto the picks for that 2C you’re chasing. The offer is going to have to be better in terms of quality, not quantity.

 

[Mackiaveli]

Mailloux has baggage and if the draft were deeper you wouldn't feel as comfortable trading both first rounders.

and for what it's worth (because I don't want this to get lost amongst the other points)

While what Mailloux did was shitty, it was also 4 years ago and I truly doubt it would have any impact on his value across the league.

In terms of 'depth of class' - these are just a few of the players that were drafted between 16-25 over the lst few years

24: Parascak/Boisvert/Connelly/Eiserman/Hage
23: ASP/Moore/Barlow/Perreault
22: Ostlund, Kemell, Miro, Snuggerud, Rinzel, Lambert, Howard
21: Othmann, Bolduc, Lucius, Wallstedt, Johnston
20: Guhle, Reichel ,Mercer, Shakir, Neighbours
19: Newhook, Krebs, Harley

Two of Aitcheson, Bear, Lakovic, Schmidt, Hensler, Carbonneau, Reschny in terms of VALUE is perfectly fine with me - I just don't think the Habs want to wait 3 years; they want someone who can come in and help Demidov next year.

 

[Captain97]

The fact that you’re offering mid round 1sts, defensive prospects and cap dumps to offset the hole the Isles will have from losing Barzal is the issue. I’d rather take a better prospect than Mailloux from a team that isn’t Montreal.
This same package has been posted up to ask for every 2C with just about everyone saying no should say something. Mailloux really doesn’t impress most people enough to be the prospect to tack onto the picks for that 2C you’re chasing. The offer is going to have to be better in terms of quality, not quantity.

That's a lot of reply to, do you think mid 1st round picks are spare parts. I didn't make an offer i was trying to gauge what you considered spare parts.

I'm not asking about the add ons, is a mid 1st round pick spare parts? Because if there are you and I will never find common ground in discussion and we don't need to have one. There's no reason to quibble about the sides if we can't agree on the main course.

Also I was looking at one or both of Horvat and Pulock suggesting the Isles should retool around Barzal + Dobson and their 1st overall pick.

 

[miscs75]

Most advanced tools put the Habs 1st picks at 23/22 for pick value; for context, the Flyers pick is worth 46 ... so if we were to generously slide two spots back in terms of value prop - 8OA + Mailloux for Barzal coming off an injury is a very good deal?

If your stance is "this draft isn't deep enough to want 16/17" then that's totally fine - but the value isn't that misaligned here. I also think if it's the 'first trade' they do, it would give them a LOT of options to move around the draft.

My stance is that 16/17 and Mailloux doesn’t impress me enough to start gutting the core. It’s the quantity for quality trade your posters keep insisting on. It’s borderline the definition of insanity at this point. The Islanders if they were to move out the core and sell could get much better prospects then Mailloux for core pieces. Let’s circle back when the offer actually makes sense to improve the Islanders both in the short and longterm.

 

[Mackiaveli]

offset the hole the Isles will have from losing Barzal

the whole point is you are replacing a top NHL talent (who was injured for half the year) with an NHL-ready prospect and back-to-back mid 1sts? The 'hole' is intentional, and makes the team worse so that they can be in a better position to draft McKenna/Dupont. That is quite literally the entire premise of this thought exercise.

 

[miscs75]

That's a lot of reply to, do you think mid 1st round picks are spare parts. I didn't make an offer i was trying to gauge what you considered spare parts.

I'm not asking about the add ons, is a mid 1st round pick spare parts? Because if there are you and I will never find common ground in discussion and we don't need to have one. There's no reason to quibble about the sides if we can't agree on the main course.

Also I was looking at one or both of Horvat and Pulock suggesting the Isles should retool around Barzal + Dobson and their 1st overall pick.

Asking for both Horvat and Pulock and offering both 1sts, Mailloux and other pieces is the definition of a spare parts trade. Essentially this is a mid 1st round pick in a weaker draft so pairing 2 really doesn’t impress me personally when I’d rather have a quality prospect in return. Look at the replies for the 3 threads involving the 16/17th picks to move up, no one’s really impressed enough to move down since the crop of prospects is very similar in that range.

 

[JTToilinginToronto]

Completely understandable and that is something you'll get mixed reactions from Habs fans about. In my gut that hurts but I'd consider so imo. Hage + is likely fair.

Hage + 2nd + Newhook to me kind of resembles the paccioretty trade. (That's Pittsburgh 2nd so it's 41 overall)

Good prospect taken mid 1st + 2nd + Middle six roster player. For a 30 goal forward.

I'm using the Brock Nelson trade as a base, which is actually favorable to Montreal as Horvat is both younger and better than Nelson.

Hage and 1st round pick is equivalent of what Colorado gave up.

 

[Mackiaveli]

My stance is that 16/17 and Mailloux doesn’t impress me enough to start gutting the core.

Totally reasonable in a vacuum - but to me the point of trading for 16/17 is the flexibility to move up again, or fill in the gaps in what is a shallow prospect pool (Islanders were rated 25th by Pronman [lol] at the beginning of this year) - in freeing that cap space from Barzal with no dump coming back, they can take a cap-dump from another team for a future pick (Marleau, Monahan).

It’s the quantity for quality trade your posters keep insisting on

I don't think you can really do quality:quality when trading for an injured 28 year old on a 3 year 9+ million dollar contract ... I'm not proposing some 7 piece package here either; I can't speak to other posters, though.

improve the Islanders both in the short and longterm.

these trades don't really exist - both sides need to win.

 

[miscs75]

the whole point is you are replacing a top NHL talent (who was injured for half the year) with an NHL-ready prospect and back-to-back mid 1sts? The 'hole' is intentional, and makes the team worse so that they can be in a better position to draft McKenna/Dupont. That is quite literally the entire premise of this thought exercise.

So offer up the prospects to give the Islanders guts to put with McKenna/Dupont, not the defenseman you keep trying to sell off in every prospect. For the 525600th time, not interested in Logan Mailloux.

 

[IslesNorway]

I think both SJ and CHI would offer quite the package to move up to 1 if they really want Schaefer, and I think the Islanders would be wise to listen. An additional 1st is probably not enough so adding a young (very) good roster player might just do the trick.

 

[Captain97]

I'm using the Brock Nelson trade as a base, which is actually favorable to Montreal as Horvat is both younger and better than Nelson.

Hage and 1st round pick is equivalent of what Colorado gave up.

The only problem I'd have with that is the Habs 1sts are a higher.

Would want a later pick back something like next years 3rd + Habs would have to include either Dach or Newhook for roster spots. Both players are prbly worth a 2nd but are young and Isles could gamble on it.

Hage + 1st + Newhook or Dach

For

Horvat + 2026 3rd

 

[FlyguyOX]

Flyers have tons of picks come chat with us

 

[Captain97]

Asking for both Horvat and Pulock and offering both 1sts, Mailloux and other pieces is the definition of a spare parts trade. Essentially this is a mid 1st round pick in a weaker draft so pairing 2 really doesn’t impress me personally when I’d rather have a quality prospect in return. Look at the replies for the 3 threads involving the 16/17th picks to move up, no one’s really impressed enough to move down since the crop of prospects is very similar in that range.

Bruh, you are putting words in my mouth. The only prospect I've been talking about is with another Islanders fan and it's Hage.

I was trying to gauge your value on two mid 1sts. Which you seem to not that's fine we can end our back and forth here.

My thought was

1st + Hage as a basis for Horvat

1st + Mailloux as a basis for Pulock.

That's a mid 1st + prospect of that position for each player. Matheson + Newhook or Dach likely need to be in for cap. But those aren't cap dumps they are decent players who would be roster casualties.

 

[miscs75]

Totally reasonable in a vacuum - but to me the point of trading for 16/17 is the flexibility to move up again, or fill in the gaps in what is a shallow prospect pool (Islanders were rated 25th by Pronman [lol] at the beginning of this year) - in freeing that cap space from Barzal with no dump coming back, they can take a cap-dump from another team for a future pick (Marleau, Monahan).


I don't think you can really do quality:quality when trading for an injured 28 year old on a 3 year 9+ million dollar contract ... I'm not proposing some 7 piece package here either; I can't speak to other posters, though.


these trades don't really exist - both sides need to win.

It still makes no sense to move Barzal for the offer put forth. Once again, if I’m moving Barzal the player over the picks is the figure piece. Ultimately moving him for 2 picks who won’t be ready for 3 seasons is just downright stupidity. So they move out the whole core for some picks (and everyone else’s garbage cap dumps) to hopefully start to compete in 2030 when these prospects get consistent NHL time? Ask Buffalo how that one is working out. Pulock/Pelech/Mayfield/Engvall/Duclair are the prices they should look at moving out, not keeping them to gut the core.
I’m not even going into the prospect pool since Lou left it bare and they’re starting to build it back up.

 

[JTToilinginToronto]

The only problem I'd have with that is the Habs 1sts are a higher.

Would want a later pick back something like next years 3rd + Habs would have to include either Dach or Newhook for roster spots. Both players are prbly worth a 2nd but are young and Isles could gamble on it.

Hage + 1st + Newhook or Dach

For

Horvat + 2026 3rd

I'd be fine with that, although it wouldn't have to be a first this year. I assume you think you'll be pretty good next year with Horvat, no?

Hage + 2026 first for Horvat

 

[Captain97]

I'd be fine with that, although it wouldn't have to be a first this year. I assume you think you'll be pretty good next year with Horvat, no?

Hage + 2026 first for Horvat

For obvious reasons I'd need at the very least top 6 protection (miss playoff barely and win lottery) Would likely still need to send a forward back because we have too many. Dach is only 1 more year at ~3 million.

 

[miscs75]

Bruh, you are putting words in my mouth. The only prospect I've been talking about is with another Islanders fan and it's Hage.

I was trying to gauge your value on two mid 1sts. Which you seem to not that's fine we can end our back and forth here.

My thought was

1st + Hage as a basis for Horvat

1st + Mailloux as a basis for Pulock.

That's a mid 1st + prospect of that position for each player. Matheson + Newhook or Dach likely need to be in for cap. But those aren't cap dumps they are decent players who would be roster casualties.

Check multiple Habs threads. Most Habs fans have Hage and Reinbacher as borderline untouchable. It’s always Mailloux and the picks which I don’t really care for. He’s in too many deals and it’s just a red flag nomatter how you try to spin it.
I’d rather have the prospect over the picks and start to build the team back up, not a bunch of 3-5 year projects that we’re hoping all hit their projection.
Dach is damaged goods at this point and essentially flipping Pulock for Newhook just keeps the term on the books but rotates the position. Ideally if it’s a cap dump, it’s a short term deal so the player can be cast away at years end.

 

[DaPhazz]

#1 trade - Not enough to lose out on Schaefer. If sharks are offering this they want him.

#2 trade - Again, value is not that in a weak draft for a proven, in his prime Barzal.

#3 - If we are moving Both, we are better of trading them in separate deals, can get more value.

While I like him, Barzal's a proven injury prone player