Value of: NTC question

[Gordievsky]

When a player is asked to waive a full NTC, obviously he still maintains some control over where he goes (he can keep the waiver conditional or partial... i.e. he could waive for certain cities, but not others.)

Does anyone have any insight as to whether players can leverage their position and demand to see what the deal is before deciding? I.e. is it possible a player could assess the trade, judge that it "looks bad" for him (e.g. he is a clear cap dump, or he feels he is undervalued as an asset in the trade) and then refuse to waive on that basis?

I suppose if you have a good agent they will communicate to you that the market is never wrong, and you're only worth what somebody is willing to pay. But especially come trade deadline time, as a rental, when free agency is only 2-3 months away, I'm wondering if players try to manage the optics of their value with a view to doing better in free agency.

I don't have any particular player in mind, it just struck me that there must be cases where the player's view of his worth and the market's view are vastly different.

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[spaghtti]

Pretty sure a player can only veto as to what team they can be traded to. He really has no choice to decide what his value is other than when discussing a new contract but even then a player value is always tied to market value not personal perceptions

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

If it's a trade for players they will tell the player what the deal is, because that is relevant to their decision to waive or not. If they have a friend on the team, or they are getting traded to a team about to do a full on tear down, etc.

I think most teams should start asking every player on their team to submit their NTC prior to the draft and just make it a team policy. Don't hurt feelings and don't waste time on deals that can never happen because of it. Just get a commitment early

 

[Altimus]

no one knows how desperate a gm would get to get a deal done. one also has to think that a player being traded would be interested in what asset the team aquiring him in giving up. like say player x wants to go to the other team to play with player y but player y is part of the deal. or he doesnt want to cripple his new team trading depth/prospects to acquire him since he would have signed there once he became a Ufa since he grew up wearing that teams pyjamas.

 

[norrisnick]

If it's a trade for players they will tell the player what the deal is, because that is relevant to their decision to waive or not. If they have a friend on the team, or they are getting traded to a team about to do a full on tear down, etc.

I think most teams should start asking every player on their team to submit their NTC prior to the draft and just make it a team policy. Don't hurt feelings and don't waste time on deals that can never happen because of it. Just get a commitment early

Pretty sure those lists get submitted at the time the contract is signed. Potentially updated at each season interval (which would be July 1st). GMs should 100% know who is and isn't on the list.

The Krug thing is them trying to trade him to a team that's not on his list (if it's a list he has pre-approved) or is on his list (if it's a list of team he's pre-vetoed).

 

[Rec T]

I think most teams should start asking every player on their team to submit their NTC prior to the draft and just make it a team policy. Don't hurt feelings and don't waste time on deals that can never happen because of it. Just get a commitment early

I'm pretty sure that players have to submit their list to their team before the season starts and it can't be changed until the following off season.

Edit: Or what norrisnick said...

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Pretty sure those lists get submitted at the time the contract is signed. Potentially updated at each season interval (which would be July 1st). GMs should 100% know who is and isn't on the list.

The Krug thing is them trying to trade him to a team that's not on his list (if it's a list he has pre-approved) or is on his list (if it's a list of team he's pre-vetoed).

Yeah, there's usually a certain date they list has to be submitted and it's updates each year at a certain time. It seems some places are weird.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

I'm pretty sure that players have to submit their list to their team before the season starts and it can't be changed until the following off season.

Edit: Or what norrisnick said...

Which is kinda funny when you think about it. At some point an NHLer has to sit down and think “hmm.. Detroit. seider good. Is the city getting better? I’ve heard it is. Taxes.. hmm. Or Montreal. Media scrutiny. I know that one dude, he’s cool. Exchange rate.. goddammit I’m going full nmc or nothin next time.”

 

[rumrokh]

Found Krug's agent.

 

[AHLdepth]

I mean as others have alluded to its only an issue if it's a team already on their pre determined no trade teams, but I can't imagine a world where "well let's hear the deal before I make a decision" doesn't hold a GM over a barrell enough for them to spill

 

[Goptor]

When a player is asked to waive a full NTC, obviously he still maintains some control over where he goes (he can keep the waiver conditional or partial... i.e. he could waive for certain cities, but not others.)

Does anyone have any insight as to whether players can leverage their position and demand to see what the deal is before deciding? I.e. is it possible a player could assess the trade, judge that it "looks bad" for him (e.g. he is a clear cap dump, or he feels he is undervalued as an asset in the trade) and then refuse to waive on that basis?

I suppose if you have a good agent they will communicate to you that the market is never wrong, and you're only worth what somebody is willing to pay. But especially come trade deadline time, as a rental, when free agency is only 2-3 months away, I'm wondering if players try to manage the optics of their value with a view to doing better in free agency.

I don't have any particular player in mind, it just struck me that there must be cases where the player's view of his worth and the market's view are vastly different.

If they have a full NTC, you probably want to tell the player anything that could persuade them to waive the clause.

 

[Harvey Birdman]

Which is kinda funny when you think about it. At some point an NHLer has to sit down and think “hmm.. Detroit. seider good. Is the city getting better? I’ve heard it is. Taxes.. hmm. Or Montreal. Media scrutiny. I know that one dude, he’s cool. Exchange rate.. goddammit I’m going full nmc or nothin next time.”

During the days of the 16 year contracts. I would have maxed out the term as far as I could. Full 100% NMC and if that meant I’m a 4M-5M player to get that. So by it.

But those don’t exist anymore and I’m pretty sure that’s why the league put a stop to it because they saw contracts like I just described coming for non-stars.

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

During the days of the 16 year contracts. I would have maxed out the term as far as I could. Full 100% NMC and if that meant I’m a 4M-5M player to get that. So by it.

But those don’t exist anymore and I’m pretty sure that’s why the league put a stop to it because they saw contracts like I just described coming for non-stars.

Agreed. Stability for your family, stability with workmates- how many guys move once and then just aren’t the same in a new place/system? Happens a lot with players who aren’t stars. Plus it sets you up to work for the org after retirement- the Sabres still employ friggin Rob Ray, so it just kinda gives you a home/identity more than being a movable mercenary does.

 

[Jumptheshark]

When a player is asked to waive a full NTC, obviously he still maintains some control over where he goes (he can keep the waiver conditional or partial... i.e. he could waive for certain cities, but not others.)

Does anyone have any insight as to whether players can leverage their position and demand to see what the deal is before deciding? I.e. is it possible a player could assess the trade, judge that it "looks bad" for him (e.g. he is a clear cap dump, or he feels he is undervalued as an asset in the trade) and then refuse to waive on that basis?

I suppose if you have a good agent they will communicate to you that the market is never wrong, and you're only worth what somebody is willing to pay. But especially come trade deadline time, as a rental, when free agency is only 2-3 months away, I'm wondering if players try to manage the optics of their value with a view to doing better in free agency.

I don't have any particular player in mind, it just struck me that there must be cases where the player's view of his worth and the market's view are vastly different.

Slightly confused by your question. Players are usually not told before hand who they are getting traded for. Often a player will be asked if he would take a deal to team X before the two teams finalize the deal.

Why would a deal care who he gets traded for?

 

[Brodeur]

Carolina had a trade in place to send Justin Faulk to Anaheim, but the Ducks were on Faulk's no trade list. But Faulk/his agent said their minds could be changed if the Ducks extended him. In the end, Anaheim didn't meet his salary demands and Faulk was dealt to St. Louis.

 

[Ace]

Pretty sure a player can only veto as to what team they can be traded to. He really has no choice to decide what his value is other than when discussing a new contract but even then a player value is always tied to market value not personal perceptions

Hasek made sure Detroit didn’t give up too much for him before he agreed to waive to go there from Buffalo. It’s why the greatest goalie of all time coming off his sixth Vezina went for a late 1 and a Slava Kozlov. He didn’t want Detroit to lose anything of value because he was going there to win a cup. Wouldn‘t waive unless he thought the deal didn’t hurt his chances.

 

[Schemp]

The player waives and then the team acquiring has a choice to honor the clause or not, however the player waiving could say beforehand that he would waive only if the acquiring team honors the original clause.

 

[bobholly39]

Here's a better question - if a player waives, is there a time limit?

By all accounts SJ has been wanting to move/trade Karlsson for at least a year. A year ago Calgary had 111 points and a lot of people thought they'd continue to do great. Now - Calgary had a crap seasonand everyone wants out. If EK had said yes to Calgary a year ago...could SJ do a trade to Calgary today, or did EK's "yes to Calgary" expire after a set period of time? Can EK changed his mind and say "nope - Calgary I no longer accept".

Other fun questions...

Sign & trade. Rumors are LA may acquire PLD from Winnipeg in a sign and trade. Technically - LA can negotiate with PLD, but can't "sign" him till he's an LA player.

1. LA and Winnipeg do the trade. LA sends contract to PLD to sign as soon as trade is official....PLD now says "nope, sorry, changed my mind, I want more $$". Is he allowed? Can LA use this to cancel the trade, or are they stuck, since trade's already done?

2. If "sign and trade" implies PLD signs in winnipeg and then is traded to LA (probably to avoid above scenario, or maybe if an 8yr vs 7yr contract was in play) - and assuming contract includes a NMC - can PLD sign contract and right away say "sorry, NMC now kicks in - I changed my mind, no to LA find a different trade partner".

3. Similarly - could Winnipeg "sign and trade him to LA"...but as soon as he signs in Winnipeg, Jets say "hmm, thanks for signing, we changed our mind about LA trade. Enjoy being a Jet for next 7 years!"

I know some of these are quite far fetched and wouldn't happen, but still curious what's possible vs not.

 

[TGWL]

If it's a trade for players they will tell the player what the deal is, because that is relevant to their decision to waive or not. If they have a friend on the team, or they are getting traded to a team about to do a full on tear down, etc.

I think most teams should start asking every player on their team to submit their NTC prior to the draft and just make it a team policy. Don't hurt feelings and don't waste time on deals that can never happen because of it. Just get a commitment early

That's what modified contracts are for. There's not point calling it a full NTC, or NMC, then have the players submit some list.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

That's what modified contracts are for. There's not point calling it a full NTC, or NMC, then have the players submit some list.

There's almost nobody with a full NMC anymore, with that you can even decline being sent to the AHL. Most veterans get NTC which gives them 6-10 teams they can say they don't want to be traded to. Players should be able to change the teams on their lists during the season but I think management should always be notified.

 

[TGWL]

There's almost nobody with a full NMC anymore, with that you can even decline being sent to the AHL. Most veterans get NTC which gives them 6-10 teams they can say they don't want to be traded to. Players should be able to change the teams on their lists during the season but I think management should always be notified.

I think you should check on that again. Only M-NTC/M-NMC make you required to give a list. Theres still plenty of non modified contracts being handed out, with some modified parts towards the end. Unless you're considering a Vet somebody 35ish.

 

[Kobe Armstrong]

I think you should check on that again. Only M-NTC/M-NMC make you required to give a list. Theres still plenty of non modified contracts being handed out, with some modified parts towards the end. Unless you're considering a Vet somebody 35ish.

I tried reading this but I couldn't....

I think we are saying the same thing?

 

[AslanRH]

Seems the player with a full NTC/NMC doesn't usually agree to waive (officially) until after a trade framework is in place, seems pretty easy for him to ask the details.

Lists have all kinds of various dates. Pretty sure a recent signing had a list due sometime prior to the deadline but after Jan 1st. I'm sure most are structured for July 1 though.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Seems the player with a full NTC/NMC doesn't usually agree to waive (officially) until after a trade framework is in place, seems pretty easy for him to ask the details.

Lists have all kinds of various dates. Pretty sure a recent signing had a list due sometime prior to the deadline but after Jan 1st. I'm sure most are structured for July 1 though.

and he picks up the phone and calls someone on the other teams "hey you are trading playing X for me".

no they would not tell him who he is being traded for. He would be allowed to talk to the other teams management and coaches

 

[AslanRH]

and he picks up the phone and calls someone on the other teams "hey you are trading playing X for me".

no they would not tell him who he is being traded for. He would be allowed to talk to the other teams management and coaches

If he asks and they don't tell him, he can just refuse to waive.
If I had that full NTC/NMC, I'm probably just calling Weeks to see what the trade is anyway.