Speculation: Now that Dubas is gone rate the HF Aftermath (His drafting)

[CelticDruid]

So much for the draft and develop model.

It's easy to talk the talk.

Walking the walk, well, that's another story. The sad thing is, they did draft and develop. Dermott, Durzi, and Sandin were the first three players Dubas drafted.

Too bad all those guys play for different teams now.

There isn't a lot of talent remaining. The prospect players still in the system are a hope and a prayer to ever so much as sniff NHL ice. Dubas alone is responsible for this mess.

He's the one that drafted those guys.

His entire draft strategy is flawed. Drafting Amirov ahead of Schneider was as foolish as it gets. The team has needed a proper partner for Rielly for years.

What they ended up with is yet another small, skilled, injury prone winger.

You obviously can't keep them all. Which is why losing players to free agency shouldn't be a big deal. What is a big deal is not developing a replacement.

They had four years to develop a replacement for Hyman and did not.

We had a very young, speedy team that ultimately turned into a slow, old aged mishmash of nothing.

"Wasted Years" should be inscribed onto this edition of the GM Dubas reign.

The last time I had real excitement for this team is when we qualified for the playoffs by beating the Penguins in the final game.

Dubas tried to reinvent the wheel and failed.

Everything that followed after Dubas hiring was inevitable.

Failure.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

It's always going to be a need but I don't recall seeing any scouting reports projecting him to be a top pair guy and that was a weak draft year for D men. You can draft a big, physical d man with limited offensive upside in the 2nd or later. If the scouts believed Amirov had a higher upside (I think he does), I'm not gonna doubt them. If both players are considered equal, then draft for need.

We did trade for those needs. We traded for Muzzin, McCabe and Schenn

We traded for those needs...but not from the cupboard of smallish talented players we had lying around like Dubas told we would. We traded picks for McCabe and Schenn and we did both picks and Trevor Moore or Durzi for Muzzin...The point I am trying to make is...we didn't have a bunch of DeBrincat's to trade..we had Malgin and Petan's to trade...big difference. Look at Edmonton..they are ready to move on from Yamamoto because he is 150lbs soaking wet and keeps getting injured because he is fearless....sounds like Nic Robertson to me... A Good big guy beats a good little guy everytime...

 

[Notsince67]

So we can probably surmise he would have been a Dubas choice. Right?

Pretty well

 

[hamzarocks]

Dubas didn’t draft Woll, the bad man did.

Hard no to Treliving.

Every player that hit from 2015 - 2017 Dubas had a hand in /s

Marner --> Dubas got that boy
Dermott --> That became hunters pick when Dermott started not progressing
Woll --> Dubas did all that
Grundstrom --> Dubas involved
Korshkov & Rasanan --> Hunter's busts but Lilijgren was somehow Dubas move.

Dubas managed to run a solid draft. I don't have an issue with people saying he was better then Hunter if they believe that.

What is annoying is people giving him credit for stuff he wasn't involved in, and really hating on Hunter acting like we weren't worshipping him heavily just like Dubas was the past 5 years

Hunter has some good/great picks along with some busts

Marner & Matthews the superstars

Grundstrom became a legit good bottom 6er and Woll looks like he will be an elite backup to good 1A goalie

Dermott & Brooks became NHLers though not very high end due to poor development and limited physical tools

Lilijgren is a likely #3D at his peak, which is good value for pick 17.

 

[ponder]

A summary of our drafts under Dubas - all picks in the top 2 rounds (where you hope for a decent number of hits), and also highlighting good later round picks (round 3+ is a crap shoot, generally minimal real hits):

2018 Draft

All picks in the top 2 rounds:
- Round 1, 29th overall: Sandin (very good pick)
- Round 2, 52nd overall: Durzi (very good pick)

Other notable picks:
- Holmberg in round 6 is a nice pick, pretty good chance he pans out
- SDR, Hollowell and Kral in rounds 3-5 are decent picks, all have a small chance to pan out

2019 Draft

All picks in the top 2 rounds:
- Round 2, 53nd overall: Nick Robertson (good pick)

Other notable picks:
- Kokkonen, Abramov, Aburzzese and Koster in rounds 3-5 are decent picks, all have a small chance to pan out

2020 Draft

All picks in the top 2 rounds:
- Round 1, 15th overall: Amirov (hard to judge - he's a long shot, but for a good and completely unpredictable reason, a brain tumour)
- Round 2, 59th overall: Hirvonen (solid pick, has a shot to pan out)

Other notable picks:
- Niemela and Villeneuve in rounds 3/4 are solid picks, have realistic shots to pan out
- Akhtyamov and Miettinen in rounds 4-6 are decent picks, have a small chance to pan out

2021 Draft

All picks in the top 2 rounds:
- Round 2, 57th overall: Knies (very good pick)

Other notable picks:
- Our only other picks all draft were Voit and Peksa in rounds 5/6, both pretty good picks IMO

2022 Draft

All picks in the top 2 rounds:
- Round 2, 38th overall: Minten (too early to judge)

Other notable picks:
- Our only other picks all draft were Moldenhauer, Hildeby, Grebenkin and Lisowsky, in rounds 3-7. Too early to judge, though Grebenkin especially had a really nice D+1

Overall, I think if you look at the actual picks we made, they look pretty solid at the moment. That whole time we've had just 3 picks in the top 50 - 15th, 29th and 38th overall. I'm sure some will criticize the lack of high picks, but we're a win-now team that's made the playoffs every year under Dubas, so of course we haven't had high 1sts, and trading away 1sts to compete makes plenty of sense.

 

[MilkofthePoppy]

So much for the draft and develop model.

It's easy to talk the talk.

Walking the walk, well, that's another story. The sad thing is, they did draft and develop. Dermott, Durzi, and Sandin were the first three players Dubas drafted.

Too bad all those guys play for different teams now.

There isn't a lot of talent remaining. The prospect players still in the system are a hope and a prayer to ever so much as sniff NHL ice. Dubas alone is responsible for this mess.

He's the one that drafted those guys.

His entire draft strategy is flawed. Drafting Amirov ahead of Schneider was as foolish as it gets. The team has needed a proper partner for Rielly for years.

What they ended up with is yet another small, skilled, injury prone winger.

You obviously can't keep them all. Which is why losing players to free agency shouldn't be a big deal. What is a big deal is not developing a replacement.

They had four years to develop a replacement for Hyman and did not.

Imagine where we would be if MLSE outlined clearly to its fans that it was abandoning reckless spending on free agents and focusing on drafting and developing players to maintain consistent competitiveness? Watching the drafted and develop talent on this team dwindling over the years to be replaced by marginal free agents was depressing.

For such a young and hip executive all we got from Dubas was more of the same 'draft schmaft' crap we have been fed for the last 40 years.

 

[Donnie740]

A summary of our drafts under Dubas - all picks in the top 2 rounds (where you hope for a decent number of hits), and also highlighting good later round picks (round 3+ is a crap shoot, generally minimal real hits):

2018 Draft

All picks in the top 2 rounds:
- Round 1, 29th overall: Sandin (very good pick)
- Round 2, 52nd overall: Durzi (very good pick)

Other notable picks:
- Holmberg in round 6 is a nice pick, pretty good chance he pans out
- SDR, Hollowell and Kral in rounds 3-5 are decent picks, all have a small chance to pan out

2019 Draft

All picks in the top 2 rounds:
- Round 2, 53nd overall: Nick Robertson (good pick)

Other notable picks:
- Kokkonen, Abramov, Aburzzese and Koster in rounds 3-5 are decent picks, all have a small chance to pan out

2020 Draft

All picks in the top 2 rounds:
- Round 1, 15th overall: Amirov (hard to judge - he's a long shot, but for a good and completely unpredictable reason, a brain tumour)
- Round 2, 59th overall: Hirvonen (solid pick, has a shot to pan out)

Other notable picks:
- Niemela and Villeneuve in rounds 3/4 are solid picks, have realistic shots to pan out
- Akhtyamov and Miettinen in rounds 4-6 are decent picks, have a small chance to pan out

2021 Draft

All picks in the top 2 rounds:
- Round 2, 57th overall: Knies (very good pick)

Other notable picks:
- Our only other picks all draft were Voit and Peksa in rounds 5/6, both pretty good picks IMO

2022 Draft

All picks in the top 2 rounds:
- Round 2, 38th overall: Minten (too early to judge)

Other notable picks:
- Our only other picks all draft were Moldenhauer, Hildeby, Grebenkin and Lisowsky, in rounds 3-7. Too early to judge, though Grebenkin especially had a really nice D+1

Overall, I think if you look at the actual picks we made, they look pretty solid at the moment. That whole time we've had just 3 picks in the top 50 - 15th, 29th and 38th overall. I'm sure some will criticize the lack of high picks, but we're a win-now team that's made the playoffs every year under Dubas, so of course we haven't had high 1sts, and trading away 1sts to compete makes plenty of sense.

If by “pan out” you mean being a possible fringe player in the ECHL, then your grading seems accurate.

 

[Donnie740]

Imagine where we would be if MLSE outlined clearly to its fans that it was abandoning reckless spending on free agents and focusing on drafting and developing players to maintain consistent competitiveness? Watching the drafted and develop talent on this team dwindling over the years to be replaced by marginal free agents was depressing.

For such a young and hip executive all we got from Dubas was more of the same 'draft schmaft' crap we have been fed for the last 40 years.

It’s astonishing how clueless Dubas was to not realize how critical it is to have young players on ELCs when you’re paying such a large percentage of the available cap to a handful of players.

Dubas had no concept of upside with young players and preferred to go picking through the scrap heap of deadwood that nobody else wanted.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

Imagine where we would be if MLSE outlined clearly to its fans that it was abandoning reckless spending on free agents and focusing on drafting and developing players to maintain consistent competitiveness? Watching the drafted and develop talent on this team dwindling over the years to be replaced by marginal free agents was depressing.

For such a young and hip executive all we got from Dubas was more of the same 'draft schmaft' crap we have been fed for the last 40 years.

The funny thing is, before Dubas the plan was a draft and develop model.

As soon as Dubas' was made GM, he signed Tavares, and went all in on the four forward experiment.

The results are on full display for everyone to see.

We had a very young, speedy team that ultimately turned into a slow, old aged mishmash of nothing.

"Wasted Years" should be inscribed onto this edition of the GM Dubas reign.

The last time I had real excitement for this team is when we qualified for the playoffs by beating the Penguins in the final game.

Dubas tried to reinvent the wheel and failed.

Everything that followed after Dubas hiring was inevitable.

Failure.

It's always the same old, same old, with this team.

Selling the future to win now is a concept as old as hockey itself.

Dubas couldn't even do that properly.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

How can you draft a Hyman replacement when you mostly go for smaller guys with skill? That typecast of thinking they are undervalued is for a reason. A team can have 1 or 2 smaller skill guys..but not 1/3 of the lineup. Just look at the size of the teams in the final 4...we look like school boys compared to them.


I agree on the drafting for need. But let me ask you this...who doesn't need a big R-handed D in this league? Even if you don't need him in a few years...you can trade him. Remember the "We will draft skill and trade them for grit" mantra? I and Pepperidge farm remember..

I believe in the free market system. And the NHL draft is about as laissez-faire as it gets. Those players aren't undervalued at all. They were drafted exactly where they should be: at the spot where someone was willing to take them. In this case, Kyle Dubas.

 

[arso40]

So we can probably surmise he would have been a Dubas choice. Right?

Only we definitely missed him several times

 

[Donnie740]

The funny thing is, before Dubas the plan was a draft and develop model.

As soon as Dubas' was made GM, he signed Tavares, and went all in on the four forward experiment.

The results are on full display for everyone to see.

And Lamoriello had the perfect set up with five core pieces in place on ELCs.

Dubas weaseled his way into being handed a dynasty and he accomplished NOTHING except for ruining it.

Absolutely the worst GM since Gord Stellick.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

What does age, ethnicity, education, and gender have to do with team culture?

I was focusing on "cultural issues".

 

[TheRumble]

We had a very young, speedy team that ultimately turned into a slow, old aged mishmash of nothing.

"Wasted Years" should be inscribed onto this edition of the GM Dubas reign.

The last time I had real excitement for this team is when we qualified for the playoffs by beating the Penguins in the final game.

Dubas tried to reinvent the wheel and failed.

Everything that followed after Dubas hiring was inevitable.

Failure.

This is an absolutely HILARIOUS criticism of Dubas from this fan board because the majority of the posters here have been REAMING HIM for not being gritty and tough or defensively responsible enough and being too much about skilled, speedy, undersized waterbug players. Monkey's Paw,

 

[centipede2233]

Dubas' real strength was his development. When he was made the GM of the Marlies he turned them into an NHL factory and leveraged the ECHL team to develop lower tier projects players.

Here's a list of players produced by the Marlies prior to Dubas taking over as AGM. I limited it to players who spent at least 1 season with Marlies and went onto and play 100+ NHL games.

We're going from 2005-2014: Korbnian Holzer, Jiri Tlusty, James Reimer, Matt Fratin, Nazem Kadri, Sam Carrick, Greg McKegg, Josh Leivo

Here's what they produced after Dubas:

Connor Brown, Andreas Johnsson, Frederik Gauthier, Pierre Engvall, William Nylander, Zach Hyman, Travis Dermott, Carl Grundstrum, Liljegren, Sandin, Trevor Moore, Mason Marchement, Justin Holl, Kasperi Kapanen.

What stood out about Dubas is he never let a prospect just flounder just because he didn't draft them. He always stuck to the prospects as long as he could. Sometimes it was a negative - Jeremy Bracco comes to mind, but we ended up producing multiple NHLers from out of nowhere because of Dubas.

Proceeded to trade grundstrum and durzi and a 1st for a muzzin that doesn’t play anymore
-traded A.Johnson for j.anderson that doesn’t play anymore
-traded marchment for malign that doesn’t play for them
-traded C.brown to get rid of zaitsev contract, no players left on leafs from trade
-traded sandin for a late 1st and a 7th d man ufa gustaffson who likely won’t be on the team next year
-traded engvall for a 3rd
-traded kapanen for a 1st amiriv Pick….
-let hyman walk
-didn’t trade dermott when he had any sort of value
-traded Trevor Moore for campbell and Clifford not on team anymore

the one guy he keeps is holl whose been a playoff disaster

brutal trades where he left nothing to show for it

 

[LeafSteel]

I did not like Hunter's drafting at all.

The draft is where Dubas inspired the most confidence for me.

It was part of the reason his trading of picks was so irksome, because of his ability to identify talent. He was very adept at finding talent in the later rounds.

The only other thing was his penchant to trade down to get more picks. While I understood the rationale, it felt at times like he was outsmarting himself by doing so. Case in point not drafting Konecny to pick up Dermott. Then again, he did the same and we got Niemala and Hirvonen, which I am very happy with.

All in all, very early but the Draft is where I felt Dubas inspired the most confidence. Knies was an excellent pick, and I was hoping that he was turning the corner on repeatedly drafting small skill and recognizing the importance of not icing a small team, and bringing different types of players. Now I'm not sure if that Dubas or if it was Shanahan, in light of recent details.

Oh well, he's free to trade someone else's 1st rounders every year, and ice a Minor Peewee team wherever he lands.

 

[TheRumble]

Proceeded to trade grundstrum and durzi and a 1st for a muzzin that doesn’t play anymore
-traded A.Johnson for j.anderson that doesn’t play anymore
-traded marchment for malign that doesn’t play for them
-traded C.brown to get rid of zaitsev contract, no players left on leafs from trade
-traded sandin for a late 1st and a 7th d man ufa gustaffson who likely won’t be on the team next year
-traded engvall for a 3rd
-traded kapanen for a 1st amiriv Pick….
-let hyman walk
-didn’t trade dermott when he had any sort of value
-traded Trevor Moore for campbell and Clifford not on team anymore

the one guy he keeps is holl whose been a playoff disaster

brutal trades where he left nothing to show for it

The point of developing players is to play them or use them as assets to get other assets. The way this team is constructed this was always going to be the plan. Develop a guy, play him while he's cheap and then trade him or let him walk in free agency. You guys harp on him overpaying the top 6 all the time, it's far worse to overpay the guys on your bottom six and and/or bottom pairing dmen.

Harping on the Muzzin trade is just short sighted. The Leafs needed defense at the time and Muzzin was a good defensemen, he just happen to suffer a career ending injury. It's not like Dubas traded for him and then intentionally gave him a concussion.
.

 

[ULF_55]

And Lamoriello had the perfect set up with five core pieces in place on ELCs.

Dubas weaseled his way into being handed a dynasty and he accomplished NOTHING except for ruining it.

Absolutely the worst GM since Gord Stellick.

Apparently, that dynasty is restricted to regular season, the Triple Double is for people who don't like strong coffee.

The dynasty pieces were a mirage.

 

[thewave]

Proceeded to trade grundstrum and durzi and a 1st for a muzzin that doesn’t play anymore
-traded A.Johnson for j.anderson that doesn’t play anymore
-traded marchment for malign that doesn’t play for them
-traded C.brown to get rid of zaitsev contract, no players left on leafs from trade
-traded sandin for a late 1st and a 7th d man ufa gustaffson who likely won’t be on the team next year
-traded engvall for a 3rd
-traded kapanen for a 1st amiriv Pick….
-let hyman walk
-didn’t trade dermott when he had any sort of value
-traded Trevor Moore for campbell and Clifford not on team anymore

the one guy he keeps is holl whose been a playoff disaster

brutal trades where he left nothing to show for it

And his supporters say it's one of his strengths. This is a fantastic list of moves that absolutely robbed Toronto of a fair amount of asset value.

And Lamoriello had the perfect set up with five core pieces in place on ELCs.

Dubas weaseled his way into being handed a dynasty and he accomplished NOTHING except for ruining it.

Absolutely the worst GM since Gord Stellick.

I wouldn't trust him to make me a Big Mac.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

LOL at the DDL in this thread. If you require more than two years of AHL "seasoning", you're never gonna be any more than a fringe NHL player.

 

[Menzinger]

LOL at the DDL in this thread. If you require more than two years of AHL "seasoning", you're never gonna be any more than a fringe NHL player.

Huh? Plenty of guys end up needing more than 2 AHL seasons...

Do you consider Liljegren a fringe player, for example?

 

[LeafGrief]

LOL at the DDL in this thread. If you require more than two years of AHL "seasoning", you're never gonna be any more than a fringe NHL player.

Jake Muzzin says hello.

You're right in that most guys who are impact NHL'ers don't spend long in the AHL, but middle six players and defensemen absolutely do develop in the AHL. The AHL is where we develop cheap depth, and it's probably one of the only things we've actually been good at through the last seven years.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

It’s astonishing how clueless Dubas was to not realize how critical it is to have young players on ELCs when you’re paying such a large percentage of the available cap to a handful of players.

Dubas had no concept of upside with young players and preferred to go picking through the scrap heap of deadwood that nobody else wanted.

You mean like Knies, Robertson, Holmberg, McMann, Liljegren, Sandin....

 

[Donnie740]

You mean like Knies, Robertson, Holmberg, McMann, Liljegren, Sandin....

Three of the names you mentioned have had ZERO impact at the NHL level and it’s doubtful they ever will.

The two Sweeds are terrified of their own shadow and one of them was a worse skater than Wayne Simmonds.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Every player that hit from 2015 - 2017 Dubas had a hand in /s

Marner --> Dubas got that boy
Dermott --> That became hunters pick when Dermott started not progressing
Woll --> Dubas did all that
Grundstrom --> Dubas involved
Korshkov & Rasanan --> Hunter's busts but Lilijgren was somehow Dubas move.

Dubas managed to run a solid draft. I don't have an issue with people saying he was better then Hunter if they believe that.

What is annoying is people giving him credit for stuff he wasn't involved in, and really hating on Hunter acting like we weren't worshipping him heavily just like Dubas was the past 5 years

Hunter has some good/great picks along with some busts

Marner & Matthews the superstars

Grundstrom became a legit good bottom 6er and Woll looks like he will be an elite backup to good 1A goalie

Dermott & Brooks became NHLers though not very high end due to poor development and limited physical tools

Lilijgren is a likely #3D at his peak, which is good value for pick 17.

Woll was drafted by Hunter .. Paul and Mark went on a long scouting mission to watch Woll play b4 draft .. Paul has been superstar high on Woll for well over 10 years as he couldn't believe how he stopped Mitchy in his tracks in so many tournaments .. I can attest to how good Joe was .. da kid was da real deal as an underager playing 97s and beating them all .. it is why i had Woll as our top prospect when all you guys had him way way way down your list