Not What You WANT to Happen, What Do You THINK Will Happen With Marner?

[ACC1224]

Of course they want to win. Everybody wants to win and I don't believe I've implied that they are trying to lose ...

But there's a big difference between wanting to win and not being willing to do what it takes to win, even if it's difficult/painful (e.g. trading a star), that much has been clear with this organization. They brought in Shanahan for big money, Babcock for big money and now Pelley for even bigger money. They have given their stars everything they could possibly have asked for, and more (most would agree way more).

And so persistently throwing money at the stars - up to and including AM & Willie's extensions this past year - despite all evidence indicating they just can't win when it counts suggests that they will do the same with Marner. It's not a pattern at this point, it's literally etched in stone.

So am I confused about some the feedback beyond yours on my post. I'm simply drawing a picture that we've all seen with our own eyes of what has been obvious about this organization under MLSE since day one. But, what, somehow this year will be different? They're finally going to draw the line with Marner? No one can be that gullible can they?

Nothing they have done has suggested anything has changed. Firing Keefe was the easy, arguably cowardly, move while all the "stars", on the ice and off, are still here.

(And of course, if I'm wrong and Marner is dealt this summer or before the TDL, I will gladly eat so much crow that I'll grow wings.)

I've seen no evidence that suggests they are not willing to do what it takes to win.

 

[rocketman588]

What I want: him shipped to Nashville for Saros

What will happen: He refuses to waive then signs with Utah,Ssan Jose or Columbus for big money and never wins shit in the nhl

 

[kevsh]

I've seen no evidence that suggests they are not willing to do what it takes to win.

Yes you have, it's called running the same group back every year and expecting a different result. They've continually rewarded failure with extensions and more money.

The philosophy of MLSE has not been "Just win" as Pelley insists, it's been "Win with this group and if they fail we'll just fire the coach." Rinse, repeat.

 

[ACC1224]

Yes you have, it's called running the same group back every year and expecting a different result. They've continually rewarded failure with extensions and more money.

The philosophy of MLSE has not been "Just win" as Pelley insists, it's been "Win with this group and if they fail we'll just fire the coach." Rinse, repeat.

Not doing what you or I would like them to do doesn't mean they aren't doing what they think it takes.
Assuming they know a better path but choose not to take it makes no sense.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Not doing what you or I would like them to do doesn't mean they aren't doing what they think it takes.
Assuming they know a better path but choose not to take it makes no sense.

You're not making any sense, nobody can never know for sure what the "better path" is, and nobody is saying the Leafs management group is any different in this regard. What it looks like is that management doesn't have the balls to make a major move and since they're printing money and there is therefore no sense of urgency to have layoff success, they're content with the status quo.

 

[rumman]

Yes you have, it's called running the same group back every year and expecting a different result. They've continually rewarded failure with extensions and more money.

The philosophy of MLSE has not been "Just win" as Pelley insists, it's been "Win with this group and if they fail we'll just fire the coach." Rinse, repeat.

Why change the players when the fanbase is happy with players that can’t win………

 

[thusk]

Yes you have, it's called running the same group back every year and expecting a different result. They've continually rewarded failure with extensions and more money.

The philosophy of MLSE has not been "Just win" as Pelley insists, it's been "Win with this group and if they fail we'll just fire the coach." Rinse, repeat.

It's exactly what Washington did and he got the result. Change everything doesn't guarantee more succes than continu and try to bring in the right coach, complementary player.

I understand fans are tired to get always same result but change everything doesn't tell us than leafs will get more succes. it can be even worst and exemple leafs missing playoff...

 

[RunItBackAgain]

LA saw an issue and immediately cut ties, moving one of the most unmovable contracts in the NHL and actually taking a win while doing it.

Either get this done or let him walk, means quite little which honestly. We aren't actually contenting with JT still on the payroll another year. But if we re-sign Marner I'm actually done. You'll all never hear from me again. That's a promise.

 

[Gary Nylund]

It's exactly what Washington did and he got the result. Change everything doesn't guarantee more succes than continu and try to bring in the right coach, complementary player.

I understand fans are tired to get always same result but change everything doesn't tell us than leafs will get more succes. it can be even worst and exemple leafs missing playoff...

There are never any guarantees but at this point Marner looks like someone who's unlikely to ever live up to his cap hit when the pressure is on and the fact that Washington finally won a cup is not only not a guarantee that the same will happen to us, it's completely irrelevant.

 

[thusk]

There are never any guarantees but at this point Marner looks like someone who's unlikely to ever live up to his cap hit when the pressure is on and the fact that Washington finally won a cup is not only not a guarantee that the same will happen to us, it's completely irrelevant.

If you take that way, outside of rookie or guest they took not a lot of people live up their cap hit...

 

[HamiltonNHL]

We aren't actually contenting with JT still on the payroll another year.

So sad.

What loser brought him here ?

 

[ToneDog]

LA saw an issue and immediately cut ties, moving one of the most unmovable contracts in the NHL and actually taking a win while doing it.

Either get this done or let him walk, means quite little which honestly. We aren't actually contenting with JT still on the payroll another year. But if we re-sign Marner I'm actually done. You'll all never hear from me again. That's a promise.

You are not alone. The Leafs board will be left with the Marnettes.

 

[rumman]

It's exactly what Washington did and he got the result. Change everything doesn't guarantee more succes than continu and try to bring in the right coach, complementary player.

I understand fans are tired to get always same result but change everything doesn't tell us than leafs will get more succes. it can be even worst and exemple leafs missing playoff...

Personally I’m tired of the old shit, looking forward to some new shit……..

LA saw an issue and immediately cut ties, moving one of the most unmovable contracts in the NHL and actually taking a win while doing it.

Either get this done or let him walk, means quite little which honestly. We aren't actually contenting with JT still on the payroll another year. But if we re-sign Marner I'm actually done. You'll all never hear from me again. That's a promise.

Me too, I’ll disappear like a fart in the wind………..

 

[ToneDog]

Personally I’m tired of the old shit, looking forward to some new shit……..

Like who is not tired of the same old September to April reruns. Throw us a bone Tre.

 

[rumman]

So sad.

What loser brought him here ?

Winner winner chicken dinner………

You are not alone. The Leafs board will be left with the Marnettes.

And the Dubites that can’t or won’t follow their messiah to Pittsburgh………

Like who is not tired of the same old September to April reruns. Throw us a bone Tre.

We’re begging ya Tre………

 

[kevsh]

It's exactly what Washington did and he got the result. Change everything doesn't guarantee more succes than continu and try to bring in the right coach, complementary player.

The Washington example is a poor one for several reasons, not the least of which is the obvious idea that just because that core finally won doesn't mean they all will (just ask the Sharks).

Secondly, while they did win that one cup that was the only time during Ovechkin's 19 year career the Caps got past the 2nd round. Just once. Hey, I'd settle for that stat with this core - one cup is better than none - but the history of that core suggests they got everything right that one year and have done nothing else before or since.

Lastly, I'm not suggesting "changing everything" but this core has done zero to suggest they will ever win. The top-heavy formula proposed by Dubas/Shanny has been a disaster. Moving on from Marner suggests this team finally accepts that, plus frees up cap space for the net & blue line which have needed to be a lot better since the day Shanahan was hired.

But they won't do it, because MLSE still apparently insists that to win you go all-in with your stars, give them everything they want and they will carry you to victory, eventually.

 

[thusk]

The Washington example is a poor one for several reasons, not the least of which is the obvious idea that just because that core finally won doesn't mean they all will (just ask the Sharks).

Secondly, while they did win that one cup that was the only time during Ovechkin's 19 year career the Caps got past the 2nd round. Just once. Hey, I'd settle for that stat with this core - one cup is better than none - but the history of that core suggests they got everything right that one year and have done nothing else before or since.

Lastly, I'm not suggesting "changing everything" but this core has done zero to suggest they will ever win. The top-heavy formula proposed by Dubas/Shanny has been a disaster. Moving on from Marner suggests this team finally accepts that, plus frees up cap space for the net & blue line which have needed to be a lot better since the day Shanahan was hired.

But they won't do it, because MLSE still apparently insists that to win you go all-in with your stars, give them everything they want and they will carry you to victory, eventually.

Moving marner doesn't mean leafs will be a better teM... Exemple leafs trading Marner and Matthews get injured and missed half of next season and torontp miss playoff. Do you really feel better than this year?

a coaching change will affect some player positively and some other negatively. If Marner is affecting positively and find back his game under a new coach and reach the next step like exemple what Tkachuk did by moving from Calgary to Florida and exemple nylander become the next huberdeau. How you will feel about it?

bit we just don't even know how player will react and making desesperate move because you are tired to still lost in 1st round, you can do something you will regret.

For me coaching change should happen last year but we need to live with it

 

[Gary Nylund]

Like who is not tired of the same old September to April reruns. Throw us a bone Tre.

That @ACC1224 guy who posts "super crazy elite" 26 times every times Marner has a good game in November?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Moving marner doesn't mean leafs will be a better teM... Exemple leafs trading Marner and Matthews get injured and missed half of next season and torontp miss playoff. Do you really feel better than this year?

a coaching change will affect some player positively and some other negatively. If Marner is affecting positively and find back his game under a new coach and reach the next step like exemple what Tkachuk did by moving from Calgary to Florida and exemple nylander become the next huberdeau. How you will feel about it?

bit we just don't even know how player will react and making desesperate move because you are tired to still lost in 1st round, you can do something you will regret.

For me coaching change should happen last year but we need to live with it

Of course moving Marner doesn't guarantee the Leafs will be better but does keeping him guarantee we won't be any worse?

You seem to be implying that moving Marner is a "desperate move", what makes you say that?

You seem to be so worried about moving Marner and possibly regretting it. Has it occurred to you that extending him long term for top dollar could be something you'll end up regretting even more?

You sound like you don't want to move on from Marner because you're paralyzed by fear and you don't understand committing to Marner for another deal carries every bit as much risk as moving on from him. Keep him for another 7/8 years and the most likely scenario is that we'll be a playoff team for at least another 5 years or so and keep getting dummied in the first round. If you're happy with that then keeping him makes sense but if you want more in the playoffs, moving on from this man child is the obvious play.

 

[thusk]

Of course moving Marner doesn't guarantee the Leafs will be better but does keeping him guarantee we won't be any worse?

You seem to be implying that moving Marner is a "desperate move", what makes you say that?

You seem to be so worried about moving Marner and possibly regretting it. Has it occurred to you that extending him long term for top dollar could be something you'll end up regretting even more?

You sound like you don't want to move on from Marner because you're paralyzed by fear and you don't understand committing to Marner for another deal carries every bit as much risk as moving on from him. Keep him for another 7/8 years and the most likely scenario is that we'll be a playoff team for at least another 5 years or so and keep getting dummied in the first round. If you're happy with that then keeping him makes sense but if you want more in the playoffs, moving on from this man child is the obvious play.

a huge problem people doing is their watching stats to tell if player had been good or bad.



He don't have scoring ? yes
he's not the most physical? yes for sure
I'm totally agree

But sorry amount core player last 3 year, he's the guy who took less shift off and was looking the closest to play the right way. It's extremely easy to work hard in the offensive zone, waste all your energy and didn't have enough to defend after all but doesn't mean it's smart and the right thing to do. The reason i would not moving marner is not the fear but the fact i think marner is the real leader of the core. If you want to see the rest of the team following the core, you need to play the right way and for me Marner was playing the right way even if he don't have the result coming with...and if Berube is able to create more space for leafs foward, i believe marner will become leafs best player in playoff in front of Matthews and nylander.

I don't think Keefe system was the best to bring the best of Marner.

 

[Dog]

Mitchy it's time to leave and do us all a favor don't be a dick about it either.

 

[Gary Nylund]

a huge problem people doing is their watching stats to tell if player had been good or bad.

He don't have scoring ? yes
he's not the most physical? yes for sure
I'm totally agree

But sorry amount core player last 3 year, he's the guy who took less shift off and was looking the closest to play the right way. It's extremely easy to work hard in the offensive zone, waste all your energy and didn't have enough to defend after all but doesn't mean it's smart and the right thing to do. The reason i would not moving marner is not the fear but the fact i think marner is the real leader of the core. If you want to see the rest of the team following the core, you need to play the right way and for me Marner was playing the right way even if he don't have the result coming with...and if Berube is able to create more space for leafs foward, i believe marner will become leafs best player in playoff in front of Matthews and nylander.

I don't think Keefe system was the best to bring the best of Marner.

Believe me, my opinion of Marner has little to do with stats. I like the way he plays during the regular season but the playoffs are a different game and Marner's been unimpressive for a few years now and trending downwards with the last 2 playoff series being possibly the worst of his career. I say that because I watch every playoff game and almost every regular season game and last couple of playoff series, Marner's been a ghost and his level of play has been way below that of Matthews and Nylander.

You think he's "the closest to play the right way" - I don't see it.
You think he's "the real leader of the core" - I can't even being to imagine what could possibly make anyone say that.

As far as Keefe's system not bringing out the best in Marner, I would say that Keefe doesn't have a magic wand, and nobody can bring out what isn't there.

It's also odd that you think that Marner's playing the right way (or closest to it) and he's the leader of the core and so on and at the same time, you're blaming Keefe's system. This doesn't compute - if you think Marner's been playing great, shouldn't you be giving Keefe credit instead of blame?

Anyhow, I respect your opinion but it seems to be pretty much the opposite of how I see it so I guess we can just leave it that.

 

[thusk]

Believe me, my opinion of Marner has little to do with stats. I like the way he plays during the regular season but the playoffs are a different game and Marner's been unimpressive for a few years now and trending downwards with the last 2 playoff series being possibly the worst of his career. I say that because I watch every playoff game and almost every regular season game and last couple of playoff series, Marner's been a ghost and his level of play has been way below that of Matthews and Nylander.

You think he's "the closest to play the right way" - I don't see it.
You think he's "the real leader of the core" - I can't even being to imagine what could possibly make anyone say that.

As far as Keefe's system not bringing out the best in Marner, I would say that Keefe doesn't have a magic wand, and nobody can bring out what isn't there.

It's also odd that you think that Marner's playing the right way (or closest to it) and he's the leader of the core and so on and at the same time, you're blaming Keefe's system. This doesn't compute - if you think Marner's been playing great, shouldn't you be giving Keefe credit instead of blame?

Anyhow, I respect your opinion but it seems to be pretty much the opposite of how I see it so I guess we can just leave it that.

Marner don't have a great shot so if you unable to get d involve or creating space with forecheck, its kind of player who will struggling to create anything offensively but start to have a better forecheck and get d involve in the offensive game and he can become a amaizing weapon.

What team did every time against leafs under keefe? pack the front of the net and force leafs to take shot from outside and result leafs struggling to score on almost every series. so most of their goal was screen shot/ deflection or counter attack after a good defensive play i the defensive end. It whats columbus did, what montreal... Tampa did it and outside of Vasilevskiy giving chritmas gift to lewfs, theybwould not score... Florida did it, Boston did it. Every team did the same exact thing year after year to stop leafs attacj and its working because the D are basically never involve and the forechecking extremely weak. Its not just marner, everybody struggling to score in keefe system in playoff, everybody!!!!

Watch exemple florida, how many goal just came from forecheck? just in like the first + 2nd round this season, Florida probably had more goal on forechecking than leafs in 5 years under keefe...

 

[notDatsyuk]

Moving marner doesn't mean leafs will be a better teM... Exemple leafs trading Marner and Matthews get injured and missed half of next season and torontp miss playoff. Do you really feel better than this year?

a coaching change will affect some player positively and some other negatively. If Marner is affecting positively and find back his game under a new coach and reach the next step like exemple what Tkachuk did by moving from Calgary to Florida and exemple nylander become the next huberdeau. How you will feel about it?

bit we just don't even know how player will react and making desesperate move because you are tired to still lost in 1st round, you can do something you will regret.

For me coaching change should happen last year but we need to live with it

Moving marner doesn't mean the Leafs will be a better team, or a worse team; it depends on many other factors. If Matthews gets injured and misses half of next season, Toronto may miss the playoffs, but whether or not Marner is here likely won't change the odds much. If that happens, will you really feel better just because Marner is here?

If Marner is affected positively and finds a game he never had, while Nylander suddenly stops the regular progress he's been making over the last few years, I will be very surprised.

The coaching and GM changes should have happened several years ago.

Not getting rid of Marner is what we will most likely regret.

 

[LeafEgo]

Moving marner doesn't mean leafs will be a better teM... Exemple leafs trading Marner and Matthews get injured and missed half of next season and torontp miss playoff. Do you really feel better than this year?

a coaching change will affect some player positively and some other negatively. If Marner is affecting positively and find back his game under a new coach and reach the next step like exemple what Tkachuk did by moving from Calgary to Florida and exemple nylander become the next huberdeau. How you will feel about it?

bit we just don't even know how player will react and making desesperate move because you are tired to still lost in 1st round, you can do something you will regret.

For me coaching change should happen last year but we need to live with it

M Chucky didn't find his game in Florida, he just kept going and reached more success with a better team. Willy and Hubes are very different players. Hubes is closer to Mitch, but even then its a very different story.