Norris Trophy Power Rankings: Rielly on top with gaudy offensive numbers

[txpd]

Burns, Gio, Reilly, Carlson with 20 games left. Stretch run writes the ticket

 

[TT1]

Burns is an elite playmaker. He's 3rd in the NHL in assists. Those kinds of guys tend to get put into offensive situations.

Player	Assists	OZFO%	Team OZFO% Without	Offensive Sheltering Relative to Teammates
Nikita Kucherov	70	57.31%	46.25%	11.06%
Blake Wheeler	57	57.39%	54.47%	2.92%
Brent Burns	56	62.88%	47.55%	15.33%
Patrick Kane	54	61.31%	46.15%	15.16%
Connor McDavid	54	55.76%	43.88%	11.88%
Mikko Rantanen	52	64.13%	48.12%	16.01%
Johnny Gaudreau	49	56.52%	51.50%	5.02%
Mitchell Marner	48	53.23%	48.43%	4.80%
Sidney Crosby	48	59.11%	40.86%	18.25%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

The Sharks have a general territorial dominance over their opposition, taking 53.65% of their face-offs in the offensive zone at 5-on-5. They use that territorial dominance in order to deploy their best offensive player in a role which is conducive to scoring. It isn’t rocket science and it isn't an indictment of Burns' defensive play. Burns has a 56.54% CF and 53.11 CA/60, those are dominant numbers.

Source for team face offs stats? My main argument is Burns is playing soft minutes, regardless of whether or not SJ has 53% o-zone starts Burns has been hovering around 60% o-zone starts for the past 3 seasons. This gives him much easier minutes against his opposition, all the top 2 way dmen in the NHL are relied upon to eat up tough defensive minutes to shut down the opposing teams top line. Burns isn't relied upon to do that job for SJ. Guys like Karlsson and Burns are studs offensively but don't try to sell my on them being a Norris caliber dman defensively. And no shit he's gonna have high CF% and CA/60 numbers when the majority of his starts are in the o-zone..

 

[Notsince67]

If Giordano keeps doing what he's doing, he will win easily. Playing on another level entirely right now.

I'm cheering for Rielly but I wouldn't cry if either Giordano or Letang won. They play really tough competition and their skill is unreal.

 

[Duffalufagus]

Gio is clearly the better denfensive d man. No question. He will also play two less games this year.

Burns is unreal. But I think he needs to out point Gio by at least 15 (secondary assists and all) to even have a chance.

 

[Used As A Shield]

Source for team face offs stats? My main argument is Burns is playing soft minutes, regardless of whether or not SJ has 53% o-zone starts Burns has been hovering around 60% o-zone starts for the past 3 seasons. This gives him much easier minutes against his opposition, all the top 2 way dmen in the NHL are relied upon to eat up tough defensive minutes to shut down the opposing teams top line. Burns isn't relied upon to do that job for SJ. Guys like Karlsson and Burns are studs offensively but don't try to sell my on them being a Norris caliber dman defensively. And no **** he's gonna have high CF% and CA/60 numbers when the majority of his starts are in the o-zone..

What are the Sharks supposed to do, put Vlasic in the O-zone!? Terrible.

 

[TT1]

What are the Sharks supposed to do, put Vlasic in the O-zone!? Terrible.

Vlasic-Burns pairing? I don't really even understand what we're arguing about anymore, SJ fans won't convince anyone that Burns is adequate defensively. If he wins the Norris it's solely based on his offensive production (just like 2 years ago), everyone in the hockey world knows who Brent Burns is and how he plays. He's not gonna change 12 years into his NHL career.

Even a stud offensive dman like Letang has 50% o-zone starts, there's so many examples of insanely high end offensive dmen having respectable d-zone starts as well. 60%+ is a ludicrous number.

@JoeThorntonsRooster still waiting for the team face off stats source

 

[Frosty415]

Vlasic-Burns pairing? I don't really even understand what we're arguing about anymore, SJ fans won't convince anyone that Burns is adequate defensively. If he wins the Norris it's solely based on his offensive production (just like 2 years ago), everyone in the hockey world knows who Brent Burns is and how he plays. He's not gonna change 12 years into his NHL career.

Even a stud offensive dman like Letang has 50% o-zone starts, there's so many examples of insanely high end offensive dmen having respectable d-zone starts as well. 60%+ is a ludicrous number.

@JoeThorntonsRooster still waiting for the team face off stats source

Translation: I don’t watch Burns play

Go be an armchair coach somewhere else

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

Vlasic-Burns pairing? I don't really even understand what we're arguing about anymore, SJ fans won't convince anyone that Burns is adequate defensively. If he wins the Norris it's solely based on his offensive production (just like 2 years ago), everyone in the hockey world knows who Brent Burns is and how he plays. He's not gonna change 12 years into his NHL career.

Even a stud offensive dman like Letang has 50% o-zone starts, there's so many examples of insanely high end offensive dmen having respectable d-zone starts as well. 60%+ is a ludicrous number.

@JoeThorntonsRooster still waiting for the team face off stats source

Natural Stat Trick. Use the line tool and check a team’s stats with and without a certain player.

You lost all credibility when you said they won’t convince anybody that Burns is “adequate” defensively. Pretty f***ing hilarious take.

Letang is the 4th best offensive player on his team, by the way. That’s an apples and oranges comparison.

 

[TT1]

Natural Stat Trick. Use the line tool and check a team’s stats with and without a certain player.

You lost all credibility when you said they won’t convince anybody that Burns is “adequate” defensively. Pretty ****ing hilarious take.

Letang is the 4th best offensive player on his team, by the way. That’s an apples and oranges comparison.

Clearly i lost all credibility when i'm arguing as a neutral fan against a biased fan.
Arguing with SJ fans on this site in general is a losing effort, you're all notoriously biased.. its hilarious. "Letang is 4th best offensive player on his team".. what's that supposed to mean anyways?

Burns and his 65% ozone starts = defensive god, you win!

 

[King Mapes]

Lol the Norris is hilarious. “Gaudy offensive numbers” when deciding who the top DEFENSE player in the nhl is.

It amazes me at how many people believe this is the Selke for defencemen when it's for all around play at both ends so offence certainly helps you win it.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

Clearly i lost all credibility when i'm arguing as a neutral fan against a biased fan.
Arguing with SJ fans on this site in general is a losing effort, you're all notoriously biased.. its hilarious. "Letang is 4th best offensive player on his team".. what's that supposed to mean anyways?

Burns and his 65% ozone starts = defensive god, you win!

Letang doesn’t get as many offensive zone starts because he isn’t his team’s best offensive player. It’s more important that Malkin, Kessel, and Crosby get more offensive zone faceoffs. That’s why Crosby gets 59.11% offensive zone faceoffs.

Meanwhile, Burns is his team’s best offensive player and he’s going to get plenty of offensive zone stats. He could be Lisdstrom defensively and he would still get a high percentage of offensive zone starts because his team needs him to create offense. It’s really not hard to understand.

 

[TT1]

Letang doesn’t get as many offensive zone starts because he isn’t his team’s best offensive player. It’s more important that Malkin, Kessel, and Crosby get more offensive zone faceoffs. That’s why Crosby gets 59.11% offensive zone faceoffs.

Meanwhile, Burns is his team’s best offensive player and he’s going to get plenty of offensive zone stats. He could be Lisdstrom defensively and he would still get a high percentage of offensive zone starts because his team needs him to create offense. It’s really not hard to understand.

Dude you're the one comparing apples and oranges, what are you talking about? Letang is by far Pit's best offensive dman, he's their only competent offensive dman and despite that he's getting 50% ozone starts. You realize when Crosby gets deployed in the o-zone he has to play with dmen too right? Pit isn't gonna send out 4 other forwards with Crosby ...........

 

[Juxtaposer]

Breaking: Team With No Superstar Forward Plays Defenseman On Pace For 92 ****ing Points In Offensive Zone.

Fun concept: the Norris goes to the best OVERALL defenseman in the league. Not the best defensive defenseman in the league. But by all means, let’s have a fan of a team who traded Subban for Weber tell us how to evaluate defensemen.

 

[CaptainShark]

Vlasic-Burns pairing? I don't really even understand what we're arguing about anymore, SJ fans won't convince anyone that Burns is adequate defensively. If he wins the Norris it's solely based on his offensive production (just like 2 years ago), everyone in the hockey world knows who Brent Burns is and how he plays. He's not gonna change 12 years into his NHL career.

Even a stud offensive dman like Letang has 50% o-zone starts, there's so many examples of insanely high end offensive dmen having respectable d-zone starts as well. 60%+ is a ludicrous number.

@JoeThorntonsRooster still waiting for the team face off stats source

I am not going to argue that Giordano is better defensively than Burns (so I will admit I don’t watch enough Flames games to really judge that, trusting what I hear). But calling Burns inadequate cost you all credibility, neutral fan or not. It proves that you either haven’t watched many Sharks games this season or you have no clue about hockey.

I have no problem with Gio winning it this year, and I think Burns doesn’t care either... doesn’t take anything away from the unbelievable season Brent Burns is having.

Edit: what a lot of people don’t see is that playing great as a defencemen does not hinge on being fantastic in your own zone. D-man that are great play drivers and make fantastic stand ups at the blue line time and again and have consistently good breakouts defend by generating offense and keeping other teams out of their zone.

 

[TT1]

I am not going to argue that Giordano is better defensively than Burns (so I will admit I don’t watch enough Flames games to really judge that, trusting what I hear). But calling Burns inadequate cost you all credibility, neutral fan or not. It proves that you either haven’t watched many Sharks games this season or you have no clue about hockey.

I have no problem with Gio winning it this year, and I think Burns doesn’t care either... doesn’t take anything away from the unbelievable season Brent Burns is having.

I don't care who wins, the Norris is a mostly an offensive dman award anyways. My issue is seeing snake oil HF salesmen fans trying to sell us BS. Don't tell me Burns is a good defensive player just because he plays for your team, he's not.

Burns is unbelievable offensively, he's hot trash defensively tho. He's not turning into Lidstrom 12 years into his career. He'd get exposed if he played heavy defensive minutes, it's no secret.. which is why he's been getting 60%+ o-zone starts for the past 3 years. Any dman who doesn't get challenged defensively isn't a true dman in my eyes, it's as simple as that.

Breaking: Team With No Superstar Forward Plays Defenseman On Pace For 92 ****ing Points In Offensive Zone.

Fun concept: the Norris goes to the best OVERALL defenseman in the league. Not the best defensive defenseman in the league. But by all means, let’s have a fan of a team who traded Subban for Weber tell us how to evaluate defensemen.

You're the poster child for biased SJ fan, hush. "But by all means, let’s have a fan of a team who traded Subban for Weber tell us how to evaluate defensemen." this statement is a clear sign of how butt hurt you are, it's just a salty attack (which is how you get when someone talks against a SJ player). SJ fans are telling me they have no offensive weapons when they have Pavelski/Hertl/Couture/Kane/Meier/Labanc/Thornton/Karlsson/Burns lmao, please keep at it.

MTL is a very good puck possession team and we basically only have Weber and Petry as competent dmen, our 2nd highest PPG forward (Drouin) would be like 8th or 9th on SJ... Weber still only gets o-zone starts 46% of the time. You wanna tell me Burns has a better shot than Weber? Weber is one of the highest ES/60 producing dmen in the NHL this year.

 

[JoeThorntonsRooster]

You know, I really find the double standard here to be hilarious.

When Morgan Rielly, a Maple Leafs player, was 5 points above 2nd place, he deserved the mid-season Norris due to “gaudy offensive numbers.”

When Brent Burns, a non-Maple Leafs player, is 10 points above 2nd place and 3rd in the entire f***ing NHL in assists, suddenly his numbers are no longer “gaudy” enough.

 

[TT1]

You know, I really find the double standard here to be hilarious.

When Morgan Rielly, a Maple Leafs player, was 5 points above 2nd place, he deserved the mid-season Norris due to “gaudy offensive numbers.”

When Brent Burns, a non-Maple Leafs player, is 10 points above 2nd place and 3rd in the entire ****ing NHL in assists, suddenly his numbers are no longer “gaudy” enough.

I said the same thing about Rielly too, it's in this thread. I said Giordano and Letang deserved the Norris over him because they're actual all around dmen. Even Karlsson is better defensively than Rielly..

 

[CaptainShark]

I don't care who wins, the Norris is a mostly an offensive dman award anyways. My issue is seeing snake oil HF salesmen fans trying to sell us BS. Don't tell me Burns is a good defensive player just because he plays for your team, he's not.

Burns is unbelievable offensively, he's hot trash defensively tho. He's not turning into Lidstrom 12 years into his career. He'd get exposed if he played heavy defensive minutes, it's no secret.. which is why he's been getting 60%+ o-zone starts for the past 3 years. Any dman who doesn't get challenged defensively isn't a true dman in my eyes, it's as simple as that.

Is Brent Burns one of the best at defending ever (aka Lidstrom)? Hell no, that would be a ridiculous claim and not even the most diehard Sharks fan will start to argue that Burns is even in that stratosphere when it comes to Defence. Does that mean he is hot trash? That’s just as ridiculous.

The Sharks have at least one clearly better defensive d-man on the team (although it has been a rough year) who is absolutly incompetent offensively (sorry Eddie). Why in God’s name would a coach give Burns the hardest d-zone competition when he has a better suited tool for that while Burns clearly is an offensive weapon? Does that mean Burns is hot trash defensively? No, no and no. Go watch at least ten random Sharks games from this season to get a somewhat meaningful sample size and you will agree...

 

[typicalsavage]

Source for team face offs stats? My main argument is Burns is playing soft minutes, regardless of whether or not SJ has 53% o-zone starts Burns has been hovering around 60% o-zone starts for the past 3 seasons. This gives him much easier minutes against his opposition, all the top 2 way dmen in the NHL are relied upon to eat up tough defensive minutes to shut down the opposing teams top line. Burns isn't relied upon to do that job for SJ. Guys like Karlsson and Burns are studs offensively but don't try to sell my on them being a Norris caliber dman defensively. And no **** he's gonna have high CF% and CA/60 numbers when the majority of his starts are in the o-zone..

Youre exactly right man. They should put Karlsson and Burns out on every d-zone draw and have Vlasic and Braun out there for every o-zone draw right? What a stupid, lazy and misinformed argument. Karlsson from a pure defensive perspective is a top 10 D, his offence separates him from the rest. Ill agree Burns isn't top notch defensively, but he's still in the top percentile. The "he's good offensively but sucks defensively" is such a bs narrative that gets stuck too offensive d-men like Karlsson, Rielly, Gardiner, Letang, Burns etc by people that don't even watch them play. Just see a guy put up points and assume he has to be bad defensively.

 

[typicalsavage]

I said the same thing about Rielly too, it's in this thread. I said Giordano and Letang deserved the Norris over him because they're actual all around dmen. Even Karlsson is better defensively than Rielly..

Lol yeah thats why Rielly is probably one of the best shut down defencemen in the league right? The same guy thats put up high numbers while shutting down other teams top lines while playing next to Ron Hainsey isn't a "actual all around d-man". Jesus Christ your Rielly, Burns, Karlsson and Letang takes are god awful. If you don't watch a guy play, don't comment on them. I'd love to hear what you thought of Subban when he was a Hab. He definitely fits all these bs narratives you throw around. Guy can move the puck but cant defend at all.

 

[Sysreq]

Youre exactly right man. They should put Karlsson and Burns out on every d-zone draw and have Vlasic and Braun out there for every o-zone draw right? What a stupid, lazy and misinformed argument. Karlsson from a pure defensive perspective is a top 10 D, his offence separates him from the rest. Ill agree Burns isn't top notch defensively, but he's still in the top percentile. The "he's good offensively but sucks defensively" is such a bs narrative that gets stuck too offensive d-men like Karlsson, Rielly, Gardiner, Letang, Burns etc by people that don't even watch them play. Just see a guy put up points and assume he has to be bad defensively.

Gardiner should not be mentioned in the same company as Karlsson, Burns, Letang, even Rielly.

Gardiner is a Shattenkirk or Yandle.

 

[TheTechNoir]

The point of every hockey player is, in a perfect world, playing in a way that positively contributes to goals for ratio. It does not matter how that is done.

Strictly speaking for the sake of devils advocate:
Or is it that the team's goal/line's goal is to positively contribute to goals for ratio. And that the strategies to employ this end vary, but generally different roles are assigned to try to achieve this. For example: defensive players who try to stymie opponents offense as specialists in that area, or offensive players who try to overcome opponents defenders as specialists in that area.

Some one said this is not the d-man selke trophy. It is not the d-man art ross trophy, either.

Perhaps, if a team has a dman who does contribute positively to the goals for ratio to a notable extent, largely driven by means of offensive output, this implies a fault in the generalization of a team structure as always being rigidly separated positionally. If all players share the same end goal of a positive goals for ratio however that may be achieved, could you not, hypothetically, have 5 forwards on a line, or 5 defensemen on a line, if they were collectively as a unit and individually able to achieve positive goals for?

What if the collective team play inflated one players' numbers who was assigned the general left defense positional regions of the ice and tasks. How does this compare to measuring an defensive player for their individual skill at stopping others from scoring?

Personally, I think hockey is way too fluid and cohesive to have a single, general d-man trophy if there is an offensive player who excells at defensive aspects of the game trophy.

A dman could win the rocket, the art ross, and the hart. And there will be a forward awarded the selke. There is no offensive production trophy strictly for forwards (despite the strong expectation or assumption being that a forward will win the ross & rocket), and there is no over-all forward trophy, either. Just defensive forward.

It seems more to me that hockey is more dynamic and fluid than a rigid offense player and defense player. I love that there is a selke award, I think it is good to recognize players who excel at certain aspects of the game.

But I think there should simply be either no Selke, and just an all around forward trophy, as well as the Norris. Or I think there should be a Selke, Norris, defensemen who excels at offensive contribution award, and an all-around forward award. I only bold cuz tldr.

Edit: And yes, I do think that a player could win both an all around and a specialist trophy. IE: Morgan Reilly could win a dman who excels at offense trophy as well as the Norris. Whereas perhaps at a time Mike Green could have been in contention for an OFD award but not the Norris.

I like the selke because, if you take players roles to heart, while being well rounded is important, it is expected that a forward be good offensively, and it is expected that a dman be good defensively. Hence the focal point on a positional award being to highlight some one excelling at the opposite side of their roles spectrum. Why it is only an all around d and a defensive fwd is beyond me.

 

[The Devilish Buffoon]

Burns or Gio for me at this point

Only two guys in it for me but it is close enough that Rielly or Carlsson could get back in it if one of them really goes on a tear

 

[TheTechNoir]

Letang doesn’t get as many offensive zone starts because he isn’t his team’s best offensive player. It’s more important that Malkin, Kessel, and Crosby get more offensive zone faceoffs. That’s why Crosby gets 59.11% offensive zone faceoffs.

Meanwhile, Burns is his team’s best offensive player and he’s going to get plenty of offensive zone stats. He could be Lisdstrom defensively and he would still get a high percentage of offensive zone starts because his team needs him to create offense. It’s really not hard to understand.

Does that mean he is not being misused then? Or would he no longer be the teams best offensive player if he were a top line forward that the other team put their best shut down guys against every night shadowing him? Could it be that he is benefiting from his deployment and usage and shelter in his role to contribute offensively?

He could be Lidstrom defensively and still be their best offensive player. Would he? And also, he is not Lidstrom. Why can't he be Datsyuk? If he is arguably the best dman in the game and the best offensive player on his team... and if his offense would not be affected by being utilized as a guy who has Lidstrom level d, why wouldn't he just become a forward? Surely he would still just be the best defensive player on his team, right?

 

[typicalsavage]

Gardiner should not be mentioned in the same company as Karlsson, Burns, Letang, even Rielly.

Gardiner is a Shattenkirk or Yandle.

No what I mean is he's a guy who can move the puck and put up points and people claim he's bad defensively just becuase of that. Shattenkirk and Yandle are actually bad defensively.