No More Soft Players & Career Losers On The 3rd & 4th Lines

[Donnie740]

At this point it should be obvious the Leafs core - - ie the top two lines - - has no clue how to win in the playoffs.

Which means the leadership and playoff toughness will need to come from the 3rd and 4th lines.

For the love of God, STOP filling those lines with soft players who float on the perimeter like Mikheyev/Engvall/Boyd and lifetime losers like Thornton/Foligno who’ve had a entire career of underachieving playoff chokes.

The 3rd line needs to be a lockdown defensive unit that can always match against any top line and with a C who’s strong on face offs.

Need at least two vets who’ve won a Cup and have big alpha dog personalities so they won’t be afraid to give Matthews or Marner a slap to wake up and tell the coach to FRO when he tries useless ideas.

Need one, but preferably two, guys who play a dirty agitating style that borders on being viscous. Kadri type would be ideal but no competent GM is going to give up a guy like that. Corey Perry type will suffice.

Also need at least one but preferably two guys who enjoy fighting because physical intimidation is one of the surest ways of winning.

This is completely contrary to building a finesse team of small skill players - - which is why the Leafs consistently lose every year in the playoffs.

Click to read more...

 

[Maple Leaf]

Ok thanks

 

[DitchMarner]

Scoring from the third and fourth lines always becomes a major problem for them in the playoffs (how many series could they have won in recent years if they had gotten just one or two more goals from their bottom six), but when you have $40 mil tied up in four forwards, they have to carry your offense and they haven't done that to the extent required. It's clear that whatever they're trying to do isn't working. At this point they need to trade one of the four or find a way to assemble a more effective bottom-six with limited cap space to use on it. They need more Spezzas. Thornton and Simmonds clearly didn't pan out. I have no idea why they didn't go for Perry last year. I was thinking it might be a good idea to snatch him, and he ended up scoring the goal that eliminated them.

If the third line isn't going to score in the playoffs, then yes, it should at least check and be physical.

 

[Dreakmur]

Scoring from the third and fourth lines always becomes a major problem for them in the playoffs (how many series could they have won in recent years if they had gotten just one or two more goals from their bottom six), but when you have $40 mil tied up in four forwards, they have to carry your offense and they haven't done that to the extent required. It's clear that whatever they're trying to do isn't working. At this point they need to trade one of the four or find a way to assemble a more effective bottom-six with limited cap space to use on it. They need more Spezzas. Thornton and Simmonds clearly didn't pan out. I have no idea why they didn't go for Perry last year. I was thinking it might be a good idea to snatch him, and he ended up scoring the goal that eliminated them.

If the third line isn't going to score in the playoffs, then yes, it should at least check and be physical.

Why do people keep saying we needed a few more goals from the bottom 6? How about the guys in the top 6....

We scored 18 goals against Montreal:
Top 6 - 7 goals
Bottom 6 - 6 goals
Defense - 5 goals

 

[cupcrazyman]

At this point it should be obvious the Leafs core - - ie the top two lines - - has no clue how to win in the playoffs.

Which means the leadership and playoff toughness will need to come from the 3rd and 4th lines.

For the love of God, STOP filling those lines with soft players who float on the perimeter like Mikheyev/Engvall/Boyd and lifetime losers like Thornton/Foligno who’ve had a entire career of underachieving playoff chokes.

The 3rd line needs to be a lockdown defensive unit that can always match against any top line and with a C who’s strong on face offs.

Need at least two vets who’ve won a Cup and have big alpha dog personalities so they won’t be afraid to give Matthews or Marner a slap to wake up and tell the coach to FRO when he tries useless ideas.

Need one, but preferably two, guys who play a dirty agitating style that borders on being viscous. Kadri type would be ideal but no competent GM is going to give up a guy like that. Corey Perry type will suffice.

Also need at least one but preferably two guys who enjoy fighting because physical intimidation is one of the surest ways of winning.

This is completely contrary to building a finesse team of small skill players - - which is why the Leafs consistently lose every year in the playoffs.

So Marner isn't being demoted to the checking line ?

 

[Dave92]

No the reason we lost wasn't our bottom 6 which uses up 11 of the 80 million dollar cap.

 

[Donnie740]

Why do people keep saying we needed a few more goals from the bottom 6? How about the guys in the top 6....

We scored 18 goals against Montreal:
Top 6 - 7 goals
Bottom 6 - 6 goals
Defense - 5 goals

WTF is this selective revisionist history?

Or have people just “forgotten” that aside from Spezza the Leafs got absolutely NOTHING from their 3rd and 4th lines in this playoffs?

Kerfoot and Galchenyuk were playing on the 2nd line with Nylander for most of the series. They each scored while they were playing with Nylander - - who carried that line.

Spezza scored one of his three goals after being moved up to the 2nd line with Nylander and Kerfoot during desperation time in Game 6.

Regardless of where he played though, Spezza was dynamite throughout the entire series and definitely deserves a spot on the 3rd/4th line next year.

The rest of the “bottom six” were complete junk.

Thornton’s one goal came on the PP. During 5-on-5 when he was in the “bottom six” he did absolutely NOTHING.

Which is precisely what everyone else in the “bottom six” also did.
Mikheyev - - 7 games of ZERO
Simmonds - - 7 games 1 assist
Engvall - - 6 games 1 assist
Foligno - - 4 games 1 assist
Riley Trash - - 2 games of ZERO
Brooks - - 2 games of ZERO

Let’s not try to fool ourselves into thinking those six names listed above and Thornton contributed anything. Because they didn’t.

All were varying levels of garbage.

 

[hotpaws]

WTF is this selective revisionist history?

Or have people just “forgotten” that aside from Spezza the Leafs got absolutely NOTHING from their 3rd and 4th lines in this playoffs?

Kerfoot and Galchenyuk were playing on the 2nd line with Nylander for most of the series. They each scored while they were playing with Nylander - - who carried that line.

Spezza scored one of his three goals after being moved up to the 2nd line with Nylander and Kerfoot during desperation time in Game 6.

Regardless of where he played though, Spezza was dynamite throughout the entire series and definitely deserves a spot on the 3rd/4th line next year.

The rest of the “bottom six” were complete junk.

Thornton’s one goal came on the PP. During 5-on-5 when he was in the “bottom six” he did absolutely NOTHING.

Which is precisely what everyone else in the “bottom six” also did.
Mikheyev - - 7 games of ZERO
Simmonds - - 7 games 1 assist
Engvall - - 6 games 1 assist
Foligno - - 4 games 1 assist
Riley Trash - - 2 games of ZERO
Brooks - - 2 games of ZERO

Let’s not try to fool ourselves into thinking those six names listed above and Thornton contributed anything. Because they didn’t.

All were varying levels of garbage.

you're missing the point , the key is to pimp Dubas and shift the blame away from him and on to players that he didn't acquire which in this case is away from the scrap heap crew he assembled and on to M and M

Dubie is at the top of the sacred cow list and anyone and everyone gets chucked under the bus to try to protect his job .

 

[Dreakmur]

WTF is this selective revisionist history?

Or have people just “forgotten” that aside from Spezza the Leafs got absolutely NOTHING from their 3rd and 4th lines in this playoffs?

Kerfoot and Galchenyuk were playing on the 2nd line with Nylander for most of the series. They each scored while they were playing with Nylander - - who carried that line.

Spezza scored one of his three goals after being moved up to the 2nd line with Nylander and Kerfoot during desperation time in Game 6.

Regardless of where he played though, Spezza was dynamite throughout the entire series and definitely deserves a spot on the 3rd/4th line next year.

The rest of the “bottom six” were complete junk.

Thornton’s one goal came on the PP. During 5-on-5 when he was in the “bottom six” he did absolutely NOTHING.

Which is precisely what everyone else in the “bottom six” also did.
Mikheyev - - 7 games of ZERO
Simmonds - - 7 games 1 assist
Engvall - - 6 games 1 assist
Foligno - - 4 games 1 assist
Riley Trash - - 2 games of ZERO
Brooks - - 2 games of ZERO

Let’s not try to fool ourselves into thinking those six names listed above and Thornton contributed anything. Because they didn’t.

All were varying levels of garbage.

It doesn’t matter when the players scored their goals. It’s about who scored.

Our top-6 were Hyman-Matthews-Marner and Foligno-Tavares-Nylander. The rest were bottom 6.

The problem was not that the depth didn’t score. The problem was that we got a total of 1 goal out of 33 million dollars in cap space.

 

[Trapper]

It doesn’t matter when the players scored their goals. It’s about who scored.

Our top-6 were Hyman-Matthews-Marner and Foligno-Tavares-Nylander. The rest were bottom 6.

The problem was not that the depth didn’t score. The problem was that we got a total of 1 goal out of 33 million dollars in cap space.

If you have half the cap tied up in 4 forwards and your no. 1 problem is scoring goals, you have the wrong setup.

 

[17 Clark]

At this point it should be obvious the Leafs core - - ie the top two lines - - has no clue how to win in the playoffs.

Which means the leadership and playoff toughness will need to come from the 3rd and 4th lines.

For the love of God, STOP filling those lines with soft players who float on the perimeter like Mikheyev/Engvall/Boyd and lifetime losers like Thornton/Foligno who’ve had a entire career of underachieving playoff chokes.

The 3rd line needs to be a lockdown defensive unit that can always match against any top line and with a C who’s strong on face offs.

Need at least two vets who’ve won a Cup and have big alpha dog personalities so they won’t be afraid to give Matthews or Marner a slap to wake up and tell the coach to FRO when he tries useless ideas.

Need one, but preferably two, guys who play a dirty agitating style that borders on being viscous. Kadri type would be ideal but no competent GM is going to give up a guy like that. Corey Perry type will suffice.

Also need at least one but preferably two guys who enjoy fighting because physical intimidation is one of the surest ways of winning.

This is completely contrary to building a finesse team of small skill players - - which is why the Leafs consistently lose every year in the playoffs.

Wait till the draft he’ll draft a team for small players again Our general manager pencil pusher Is the definition of stupid when you do the same thing over and over and over and over and expecting different results don’t get it and go back and do it again aren’t you supposed to learn by mistakes apparently not when your the general manager of the make believes All you have to do is keep lying to your Fanbase like throwing something to the wall and see if it sticks there can’t possibly be that many brain dead fans wake up and smell the coffee

 

[ErnieLeafs]

At this point it should be obvious the Leafs core - - ie the top two lines - - has no clue how to win in the playoffs.

Which means the leadership and playoff toughness will need to come from the 3rd and 4th lines.

For the love of God, STOP filling those lines with soft players who float on the perimeter like Mikheyev/Engvall/Boyd and lifetime losers like Thornton/Foligno who’ve had a entire career of underachieving playoff chokes.

The 3rd line needs to be a lockdown defensive unit that can always match against any top line and with a C who’s strong on face offs.

Need at least two vets who’ve won a Cup and have big alpha dog personalities so they won’t be afraid to give Matthews or Marner a slap to wake up and tell the coach to FRO when he tries useless ideas.

Need one, but preferably two, guys who play a dirty agitating style that borders on being viscous. Kadri type would be ideal but no competent GM is going to give up a guy like that. Corey Perry type will suffice.

Also need at least one but preferably two guys who enjoy fighting because physical intimidation is one of the surest ways of winning.

This is completely contrary to building a finesse team of small skill players - - which is why the Leafs consistently lose every year in the playoffs.

There’s so much wrong with this, and that’s before we get to how lame it is that you think anyone reads this whole thing through, and still thinks they’re replying to somebody with a textured brain

 

[dubplatepressure]

Geez give it a rest man. I think everyone on these boards understands how personally offended you are over Dubas and Keefe's performance - because you continually post in every conversation / thread about it. We ALLLL get it.

 

[Donnie740]

Geez give it a rest man. I think everyone on these boards understands how personally offended you are over Dubas and Keefe's performance - because you continually post in every conversation / thread about it. We ALLLL get it.

Are you happy with the results Dubas and Keefe achieved this year and last?

Are you looking forward to several more years with similar results?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

At this point it should be obvious the Leafs core - - ie the top two lines - - has no clue how to win in the playoffs.

Which means the leadership and playoff toughness will need to come from the 3rd and 4th lines.

For the love of God, STOP filling those lines with soft players who float on the perimeter like Mikheyev/Engvall/Boyd and lifetime losers like Thornton/Foligno who’ve had a entire career of underachieving playoff chokes.

The 3rd line needs to be a lockdown defensive unit that can always match against any top line and with a C who’s strong on face offs.

Need at least two vets who’ve won a Cup and have big alpha dog personalities so they won’t be afraid to give Matthews or Marner a slap to wake up and tell the coach to FRO when he tries useless ideas.

Need one, but preferably two, guys who play a dirty agitating style that borders on being viscous. Kadri type would be ideal but no competent GM is going to give up a guy like that. Corey Perry type will suffice.

Also need at least one but preferably two guys who enjoy fighting because physical intimidation is one of the surest ways of winning.

This is completely contrary to building a finesse team of small skill players - - which is why the Leafs consistently lose every year in the playoffs.

You are 100% right but Dubie does not have it in him .. you are talking about a houseleaguer from Owen Sound who only got into hockey because his uncle got him in front door .. guys like that who have never been knocked out, never been hit so hard their teeth shake in their jaws, never had to sacrifice a huge hit to make a play, never had to fight someone, never blocked a slap shot which busted an ankle, these types only can understand what is on a spreadsheet based on some analytics model which spits out data which they think means wins .. but they don't know because they never can understand what it is like on da ice .. not saying this data stuff has no value it does but it is not primary decision factor for an org .. hockey is a vicious game unlike moneyball .. playoffs are won by warriors like rugby is .. now your warrior needs to be fast too .. and you need some scorers and passers too but they need to be able to keep up to playoff pace .. it is a tricky balance and not easy to get right .. giving keys to a rook GM who never played clearly has been a failed decision which should be corrected by Larry with guy who made that call .. life in da fast lane baby

 

[Dreakmur]

You are 100% right but Dubie does not have it in him .. you are talking about a houseleaguer from Owen Sound who only got into hockey because his uncle got him in front door .. guys like that who have never been knocked out, never been hit so hard their teeth shake in their jaws, never had to sacrifice a huge hit to make a play, never had to fight someone, never blocked a slap shot which busted an ankle, these types only can understand what is on a spreadsheet based on some analytics model which spits out data which they think means wins .. but they don't know because they never can understand what it is like on da ice .. not saying this data stuff has no value it does but it is not primary decision factor for an org .. hockey is a vicious game unlike moneyball .. playoffs are won by warriors like rugby is .. now your warrior needs to be fast too .. and you need some scorers and passers too but they need to be able to keep up to playoff pace .. it is a tricky balance and not easy to get right .. giving keys to a rook GM who never played clearly has been a failed decision which should be corrected by Larry with guy who made that call .. life in da fast lane baby

“You’re like an expert swimmer who never got in a pool.” - Matt Serra

 

[Donnie740]

You are 100% right but Dubie does not have it in him .. you are talking about a houseleaguer from Owen Sound who only got into hockey because his uncle got him in front door .. guys like that who have never been knocked out, never been hit so hard their teeth shake in their jaws, never had to sacrifice a huge hit to make a play, never had to fight someone, never blocked a slap shot which busted an ankle, these types only can understand what is on a spreadsheet based on some analytics model which spits out data which they think means wins .. but they don't know because they never can understand what it is like on da ice .. not saying this data stuff has no value it does but it is not primary decision factor for an org .. hockey is a vicious game unlike moneyball .. playoffs are won by warriors like rugby is .. now your warrior needs to be fast too .. and you need some scorers and passers too but they need to be able to keep up to playoff pace .. it is a tricky balance and not easy to get right .. giving keys to a rook GM who never played clearly has been a failed decision which should be corrected by Larry with guy who made that call .. life in da fast lane baby

Appointing a stick boy like Dubas to GM is the worst management decision since a senile Harold Ballard promoted Gord Stellick from PR clerk to GM.

But on a positive note it’s an example for other little boys and girls that if they work hard to create some colourful spreadsheets and practice playing NHL21, they too can someday be GM of the Leafs.

 

[saffronleaf]

No more losers from San Jose, please. Marleau was the worst. At least Thornton was a min wage 1 year deal, but he was also very useless as the season progressed.

 

[Donnie740]

No more losers from San Jose, please. Marleau was the worst. At least Thornton was a min wage 1 year deal, but he was also very useless as the season progressed.

After seeing how brutal Thornton and Marleau were, all of those playoff choke jobs by SJ make sense.

Unbelievable that a guy like Thornton with nothing but playoff disappointments on his resume was brought in for his “leadership” ability.

 

[Stephen]

After seeing how brutal Thornton and Marleau were, all of those playoff choke jobs by SJ make sense.

Unbelievable that a guy like Thornton with nothing but playoff disappointments on his resume was brought in for his “leadership” ability.

Meanwhile Corey Perry, fresh of a finals appearance last year, kills our captain and continues on his Conn Smythe dark horse pace.

I don’t really think the third and fourth lines are the main problem. Sure you can get a little more juice from them. But those lines typically go as the alphas higher up the pecking order go. If they’re expected to cover the blemishes of the top end guys, that’s a lot to ask for.

 

[I am Canadian]

WTF is this selective revisionist history?

Or have people just “forgotten” that aside from Spezza the Leafs got absolutely NOTHING from their 3rd and 4th lines in this playoffs?

Kerfoot and Galchenyuk were playing on the 2nd line with Nylander for most of the series. They each scored while they were playing with Nylander - - who carried that line.

Spezza scored one of his three goals after being moved up to the 2nd line with Nylander and Kerfoot during desperation time in Game 6.

Regardless of where he played though, Spezza was dynamite throughout the entire series and definitely deserves a spot on the 3rd/4th line next year.

The rest of the “bottom six” were complete junk.

Thornton’s one goal came on the PP. During 5-on-5 when he was in the “bottom six” he did absolutely NOTHING.

Which is precisely what everyone else in the “bottom six” also did.
Mikheyev - - 7 games of ZERO
Simmonds - - 7 games 1 assist
Engvall - - 6 games 1 assist
Foligno - - 4 games 1 assist
Riley Trash - - 2 games of ZERO
Brooks - - 2 games of ZERO

Let’s not try to fool ourselves into thinking those six names listed above and Thornton contributed anything. Because they didn’t.

All were varying levels of garbage.

These aren't the guys that carry you in playoffs. Sure we would like more points here, but Nylander was the only top 6 guy doing anything

 

[The Iceman]

I am old enough to remember the recipe for the last Leaf teams to have success in the playoffs.

Get a great not good goalie (Cujo), get a bunch of guys that buy in to the system, get a great coach and motivate them.
The Quinn and Burns led teams were this.

Now I also remember GM Fletcher saying after he made the Sundin trade that he couldn't ask the plumbers to give any more and they still didn't win the Cup after back-to-back semi final appearances. Thus the Sundin trade.

NYI are a likable band of plumbers with some decent talent. Built to win in the playoffs but not strong enough to win it all.

 

[dubplatepressure]

Are you happy with the results Dubas and Keefe achieved this year and last?

Are you looking forward to several more years with similar results?

Do you ever get tired of banging the same drum to the same tune repeatedly? When is enough enough?

 

[koyvoo]

At this point it should be obvious the Leafs core - - ie the top two lines - - has no clue how to win in the playoffs.

Which means the leadership and playoff toughness will need to come from the 3rd and 4th lines.

For the love of God, STOP filling those lines with soft players who float on the perimeter like Mikheyev/Engvall/Boyd and lifetime losers like Thornton/Foligno who’ve had a entire career of underachieving playoff chokes.

The 3rd line needs to be a lockdown defensive unit that can always match against any top line and with a C who’s strong on face offs.

Need at least two vets who’ve won a Cup and have big alpha dog personalities so they won’t be afraid to give Matthews or Marner a slap to wake up and tell the coach to FRO when he tries useless ideas.

Need one, but preferably two, guys who play a dirty agitating style that borders on being viscous. Kadri type would be ideal but no competent GM is going to give up a guy like that. Corey Perry type will suffice.

Also need at least one but preferably two guys who enjoy fighting because physical intimidation is one of the surest ways of winning.

This is completely contrary to building a finesse team of small skill players - - which is why the Leafs consistently lose every year in the playoffs.

Having those types of players on the top line is far worse than having them on the bottom lines. One problem at a time. Let’s deal with the big one first.

 

[sxvnert]

A proper team fills these 700-800k spots with drafted players on elcs. Unfortunately dubas' draft record is borderline terrible.