Post-Game Talk: No Cup for Winnipeg this Year | 4-1 Leafs Win

[Tarmore]

First we watch Leafs lose to bottom feeders Montreal and Arizona in a pair of uninspired losses.

So fans yell "Play the kids" ... Enter Nicky Bobby and he saves the day.

But Matthews and other stars are still abused physically with zero push back.

So fans yell "Who let the Dogs out" and Leafs insert a pair of Pit Bulls in Simmonds and Clifford.

Leaf's team plays their most complete and physical game and dominate start to finish and coach and GM finally get it right.

So some Leaf fans yell " Free Denis Malgin" ..

Just goes to show you can't please all the people all the time.

If you think the fans call the shots then that says a lot about you Mess.

 

[Jojalu]

Swing and a miss with Foligno, and Ritchie

Dubas keeps trying to do it. The problem is there are very few players in today's game that can do it.

It's really too bad Foligno and Ritchie didn't pan out.

 

[All Mod Cons]

If you think the fans call the shots then that says a lot about you Mess.

He's Sticky?

 

[Dekes For Days]

Goons aren’t a preventative tool. They just allow your players to respond to the physical challenge by everything standing up for each other more knowing someone will have their back when things get rough.

Things did get rough, and the players can and did respond to physical challenges all on their own. Simmonds/Clifford didn't "allow" them to do anything, or do anything themselves.

 

[Stephen]

There are fans that just won't listen, so don't waste your time.

We've spent years telling them that they won't prevent things and that they need to also be able to play somewhat. All you get in response is "let's trade Matthews for Polak".

It's a waste of time.

I find the whole thing frustrating because the team management grasps the basics of having Simmonds, Clifford and Muzzin play specific roles but they never commit to those parts of the roster as fairly important in making everything else function. They move away from that mix only to get burned and then they have to get muscle again. Such a frustrating learning curve.

 

[Pebble live]

What happened/what we have evidence of was a bunch of our players that people incorrectly label as soft responding to a dirty team that we had previous bad blood with after they attempted to injure our players multiple times. What we have absolutely zero evidence of/nothing to suggest is that being a result of Simmonds/Clifford doing nothing on the bench. That's nothing but a fan fantasy built to support a narrative. It's not unusual for wildly different situations in the Dallas/Winnipeg games to result in different responses.

Simmonds himself had a decent game, and likely earned another one, but that's because of his hockey play, not because of magical fantasies about him causing other people to do things by his mere existence.

I guess you have a better read on the team than the coaches and players on the roster. You're probably right.

 

[Stephen]

Things did get rough, and the players can and did respond to physical challenges all on their own. Simmonds/Clifford didn't "allow" them to do anything, or do anything themselves.

It’s a team game. Why would anyone have to respond to physical challenges on their own when they have the protection of a group and teammates to rely on?

 

[Duffman955]

I find the whole thing frustrating because the team management grasps the basics of having Simmonds, Clifford and Muzzin play specific roles but they never commit to those parts of the roster as fairly important in making everything else function. They move away from that mix only to get burned and then they have to get muscle again. Such a frustrating learning curve.

This is the annoying thing. We keep learning the same lesson over and over again.

Dubas needs to go out and get better younger versions of Clifford/Simmonds types.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I guess you have a better read on the team than the coaches and players on the roster. You're probably right.

No coach or player came remotely close to suggesting what some fans have been suggesting in this thread.

It’s a team game. Why would anyone have to respond to physical challenges on their own when they have the protection of a group and teammates to rely on?

You seem to have mistaken "on their own" to mean only one individual doing something instead of the team collectively doing something without the need of Simmonds/Clifford.

 

[Mad hatter]

Fun fact: I was the physical scrub, I have a ton of self awareness.

You guys are willing to settle for mediocrity, that’s the difference. Gary Roberts, Wendel Clark, Cam Neely, or more recently Matthew/Brady Tkachuk, Tom Wilson, those are the types of players that can protect their teammates in todays game. Those are the players who physical presence is felt and will convince other teams to shy away from contact.

Hopefully Knies can delvope into a power forward that can play top 6 minutes, definitely a team need imho. Until then though Simmons is the closest we have to fill that role and I hope he stays in the lineup

 

[Stephen]

No coach or player came remotely close to suggesting what some fans have been suggesting in this thread.

You seem to have mistaken "on their own" to mean only one individual doing something instead of the team collectively doing something without the need of Simmonds/Clifford.

Why do you need to single out Simmonds and Clifford as guys outside of the team? When they are a part of the group, they can change the dynamic in a positive way and add a tougher element they don’t have when they aren’t there. Do they always need to be in the lineup? Maybe not. But when the right opponents come up they have some value.

In the end, Dubas acquired them. Keefe put them on the roster. Their teammates sing their praises. Not sure whose theory of team building you’re defending here.

 

[al secord]

There is no typical Leafs Fan

I was just pointing out the stupidity of calling out fans for the exact thing he was bitching about in his post

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I like having Wayne on the team… he keeps the other team on notice.

Even when Knies cracks the lineup… the Leafs aren’t going to want him fighting anyone.

Yeah when Knies gets here I don’t expect him to fight at all. He’s a different type of power forward who will skate through guys and uses his size and strength to score, but I don’t envision him being a rock and sock ‘em type.

Douglas is going to need to be the guy who can play fourth line minutes well and throw down when needed. Though I’m still not happy with him since his non-response to Kallgren getting run last week.

 

[Jojalu]

This is the annoying thing. We keep learning the same lesson over and over again.

Dubas needs to go out and get better younger versions of Clifford/Simmonds types.

That would be ideal but who are those guys? Teams are not giving up those players because they are becoming less and less.

So unless the Leafs hand over high picks or top prospects there is zero chance to get them.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Why do you need to single out Simmonds and Clifford as guys outside of the team?

Include them or don't include them, I don't care. Fact is, they didn't end up being a significant part of the response. Which leads to the real question and issue - why Simmonds and Clifford are being credited for and singled out as the reason for our response, despite not actually doing anything, instead of the people who actually responded.

 

[Duffman955]

That would be ideal but who are those guys? Teams are not giving up those players because they are becoming less and less.

So unless the Leafs hand over high picks or top prospects there is zero chance to get them

You can draft and develop them yourself. Even in free agency, they become available.

I wouldn't even mind giving up picks for Tanner Jeannot type players.

 

[Jojalu]

You can draft and develop them yourself. Even in free agency, they become available.

I wouldn't even mind giving up picks for Tanner Jeannot type players.

Hopefully they have and they arrive in the next couple of years.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You missed the boat.

I have no interest in leaving the bandwagon, so the boat's all yours pal.

 

[Martin Skoula]

You can draft and develop them yourself. Even in free agency, they become available.

I wouldn't even mind giving up picks for Tanner Jeannot type players.

The key is getting them at Jeannot's age before they've really proven themselves as a legit top-6 skillset as well as legit heavyweights. Once they hit Wilson level notoriety you're looking at paying them big money through their injured 30s.

 

[Stephen]

Include them or don't include them, I don't care. Fact is, they didn't end up being a significant part of the response. Which leads to the real question and issue - why Simmonds and Clifford are being credited for and singled out as the reason for our response, despite not actually doing anything, instead of the people who actually responded.

I would love to see an interview where you tell Toronto Maple Leafs players that Simmonds and Clifford weren’t real contributors to their physical response last night.

“No, John. There is no factual evidence that your team played a certain way with Simmonds and Clifford despite what you think.”

 

[deprw]

It’s a team game. Why would anyone have to respond to physical challenges on their own when they have the protection of a group and teammates to rely on?

There is at least 50 minutes in a game, where Simmonds and Clifford are sitting in the sidelines. Not cleaning up any scrums or crap. Though I think Simmonds adds more positives into the lineup, when his in, but I would try to build better 4th that we had last year. That toughness didn't do jack shit, when it mattered. I'm happy that we have both Simmonds and Clifford we can throw in occasionally, but it won't help us in the long run if they're 2/3 of our 4th line.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I would love to see an interview where you tell Toronto Maple Leafs players that Simmonds and Clifford weren’t real contributors to their physical response last night.

“No, John. There is no factual evidence that your team played a certain way with Simmonds and Clifford despite what you think.”

I would love to see an interview where you tell the Toronto Maple Leaf players that actually responded that they only responded because Simmonds and Clifford were sitting on the bench doing nothing last night.

"No John, you don't get credit for responding and standing up for your teammates, despite what you think. Simmonds and Clifford do, because they existed."

 

[LeafSteel]

You can draft and develop them yourself. Even in free agency, they become available.

I wouldn't even mind giving up picks for Tanner Jeannot type players.

We had one of our own in Marchment and gave him away for nothing.

Easily one of my most irritating Dubas trade.

It was so unnecessary.

I don’t think Simmonds can play every game as his effectiveness diminishes, but there is no question that his presence in the lineup gives his teammates a confidence boost.

Either you see it or you don’t, but is is a fact and it’s been noted by the other players for years.

Clifford I’m not as sure about as I don’t think he’s nearly as effective a player as Simmonds is.

 

[All Mod Cons]

I find the whole thing frustrating because the team management grasps the basics of having Simmonds, Clifford and Muzzin play specific roles but they never commit to those parts of the roster as fairly important in making everything else function. They move away from that mix only to get burned and then they have to get muscle again. Such a frustrating learning curve.

I agree. It's a bit insane that you're given Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Rielly to build around. And you can't fill most of the gaps with 30-50 point solid players that just don't take shit.

Would be pretty easy to do.

 

[Stephen]

I would love to see an interview where you tell the Toronto Maple Leaf players that actually responded that they only responded because Simmonds and Clifford were sitting on the bench doing nothing in those moments last night.

"No John, you don't get credit for responding and standing up for your teammates, despite what you think. Simmonds and Clifford do, because they existed."

You’re not grasping the concept of team sports. They won the game as a team and protected each other in a nasty physical battle and Simmonds and Clifford helped create an environment of protection. Everyone can play a little harder because they know there’s someone with them. The idea of anyone assigning credit to who threw what hit and who jumped into which scrum is wrong headed.